Thoughts on this....DD secondary replacement
- Thread starter winter brew
- Start date
They wouldn't have sold as many with just a regular clutch, but the tied version is going to be a huge improvement, much more demand. every one else is ordering the heck out of them. I wonder why team doesn't build one.
On another note they run these on atv and the last atv I pulled apart wasn't a float design but bolted just like the dd, splines and all. We are just going to have to get someones attention, to tell us why or why not.
I just called slp, not a clue
called Team, said they looked at it for 5 min and said f ' it. But said all the snowcross sleds use there clutches??? Also they thought AC will be going away from the DD soon, the guy called the dd a good trail sled setup but thats about it. WTF
On another note they run these on atv and the last atv I pulled apart wasn't a float design but bolted just like the dd, splines and all. We are just going to have to get someones attention, to tell us why or why not.
I just called slp, not a clue
called Team, said they looked at it for 5 min and said f ' it. But said all the snowcross sleds use there clutches??? Also they thought AC will be going away from the DD soon, the guy called the dd a good trail sled setup but thats about it. WTF
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There must be a design or copyright reason this wasn't done years ago. Who knows 
As for floating a clutch....I have done that off and on since 1980. My opinion is this whole "float" thing is highly overrated. The only time it can help with belt wear issues is if your clutch alignment was not correct to begin with and allowing it to float lets it move to the correct spot on the shaft. The reason to allow a clutch to float a little on most designs is so it doesn't preload the jackshaft bearing. Nothing wrong with a secondary being solid mounted as long as it's in correct alignement. My M and XP are both solid and never a belt problem. Most belt blowing problems are calibration related from what I have seen.
The PROBLEM with floating clutches......go take the retaining bolt out of your secondary, belt removed and apply a little "twist" to the secondary with your hands and try to move the clutch in or out. It won't move without alot of force...if at all. So what happens if you allow your secondary to float a significant amount and tortion is applied to the clutch when it is not in correct alignment? It will stay out of alignment until tortion is released and it can find a neutral location. There is just no way to be certain your secondary is correctly aligned during operation if it is allowed to float more than about 1/8". Again...JMHO
Back to the keyed shaft idea....I think if this is something that can physically be done, someone could sell the poop out of those things and get rid of the DD secondary and it's weaknesses.
If nothing else, it makes for some good off-season sled talk!!!
The new Team sec....I'm sure it will work good, it will be a improvement over the TSS '04 (how much...????) but I don't see it being a huge improvement. I hope it doesn't prove to be TOO sensitive or quick reacting, that makes for inconsistant RPM and tough to clutch. Anything that has the promise of dropping belt temps is good.....but the biggest source of heat is generated in the primary so......????? Time will tell.
As for floating a clutch....I have done that off and on since 1980. My opinion is this whole "float" thing is highly overrated. The only time it can help with belt wear issues is if your clutch alignment was not correct to begin with and allowing it to float lets it move to the correct spot on the shaft. The reason to allow a clutch to float a little on most designs is so it doesn't preload the jackshaft bearing. Nothing wrong with a secondary being solid mounted as long as it's in correct alignement. My M and XP are both solid and never a belt problem. Most belt blowing problems are calibration related from what I have seen.
The PROBLEM with floating clutches......go take the retaining bolt out of your secondary, belt removed and apply a little "twist" to the secondary with your hands and try to move the clutch in or out. It won't move without alot of force...if at all. So what happens if you allow your secondary to float a significant amount and tortion is applied to the clutch when it is not in correct alignment? It will stay out of alignment until tortion is released and it can find a neutral location. There is just no way to be certain your secondary is correctly aligned during operation if it is allowed to float more than about 1/8". Again...JMHO
Back to the keyed shaft idea....I think if this is something that can physically be done, someone could sell the poop out of those things and get rid of the DD secondary and it's weaknesses.
If nothing else, it makes for some good off-season sled talk!!!
The new Team sec....I'm sure it will work good, it will be a improvement over the TSS '04 (how much...????) but I don't see it being a huge improvement. I hope it doesn't prove to be TOO sensitive or quick reacting, that makes for inconsistant RPM and tough to clutch. Anything that has the promise of dropping belt temps is good.....but the biggest source of heat is generated in the primary so......????? Time will tell.
you must not have a m1000, the motor torques at least a 1/8" in and out of alignment. thus you can either align it under torque or not under torque. But I get what your saying about it binding in the wrong spot. Even so if we could mount this clutch solid in alignment it would be worth a try. something about the m1000 makes for some funky belt and clutching problems and I know there is a lot still on the table. There are many people on here that have aligned and re aligned and done many diff things to try and get belts to last and still have problems.
I didn't have a M-1000, but I did have a '06 M7 with Engine-Tech 900 that was a solid 175 and very torquey....ran right with very good running M1000's with pipe/fuel box. I never had belt problems, but I also never ran that overly stiff orange secondary spring (tried it for 1 ride). I am not a guru with cat clutching, but I can tell you that if you are going through belts and alignment is even close (doesn't need to be perfect) the first thing I would do is get rid of that spring in favor of something softer. I believe I ran the stock titanium spring with a straight 36...140/320 up front (higher tension to make the secondaries job easier) with 74g Cat light tips. This was as good as I could get it. I don't believe engine movement (unless a mount is pretty much junk) to be the entire problem.....if at all.
I could gain 10 mph climbing track speed with a 44 helix, but it couldn't backshift/regain RPM enough to be rideable....but boy would it spin the track on a climb if you didn't have to get off the throttle!! Now imagine being able to have that track speed (60mph plus!) on a climb AND have a good backshift!! That's why I think running a Team or ?? would be HUGE for this sled.....and yes, I did play a bit with the tortion conversions. As already stated by others, you still have to run alot of spring and shallow helix to make it work so it's not the direction we're looking to go to get a better working secondary. Again...JMHO.
I could gain 10 mph climbing track speed with a 44 helix, but it couldn't backshift/regain RPM enough to be rideable....but boy would it spin the track on a climb if you didn't have to get off the throttle!! Now imagine being able to have that track speed (60mph plus!) on a climb AND have a good backshift!! That's why I think running a Team or ?? would be HUGE for this sled.....and yes, I did play a bit with the tortion conversions. As already stated by others, you still have to run alot of spring and shallow helix to make it work so it's not the direction we're looking to go to get a better working secondary. Again...JMHO.
H
hatchers
Well-known member
both the 1000 and 8 need an additional motor mount IMO, im installing one right now and need to rework the CAt mount in a reverse format...its the same as the one just below the oil res and will be installed on the other side or next to the oil pump...cat has the mounting holes why not add another mount during production?...oh never mind
It does need extra mounts without a doubt, just read the belt blower thread its 14+ pages of this.
Back to topic. I agree with winter brew on the back and upshift part and think one could see easy 60mph track speed and be able to drop and regain the speed, mine starts with great track speed but backshifts and wont shift back up. we need to get the measurements of the tied clutch and see if there is room to align it without hitting the dd case.
Back to topic. I agree with winter brew on the back and upshift part and think one could see easy 60mph track speed and be able to drop and regain the speed, mine starts with great track speed but backshifts and wont shift back up. we need to get the measurements of the tied clutch and see if there is room to align it without hitting the dd case.
All clutches will be real close on this measurement.....the sheaves all start in the same location and then the inner sheave moves as far as the belt will push it, which is similar on all clutches, 1 variable is sheave angle and then how far the center shaft of the clutch sticks out the back will be a limiting factor as well as sheave thickness. I'm probably forgetting some obvious reason as to why this can't work, but without a Cat in the shop I can't look for obstacles.
That is who did mine and he remachined the clutch sheaves so they were true.
The bigger cup on the back of the secondary has to be installed to clear the DD case. Then do a keyed shaft and hub. Still cannot float because the bolt that holds the clutch on also holds the input gear in position.
Are you saying they DO make a keyed shaft for the DD or just for the chaincase conversion?
http://www.xtremeperformancesports.c..._Products.html Did a conversion on the old style roller clutch for me. It was still a splined shaft.
The only way to make the older style secondary work would be to do this conversion with a machined keyed hub and then have a keyed shaft and gear made. You need the big cup on the back of the secondary to clear the dd case. When you have the input shaft made you would want a groove machined in it so you could use a snap ring to hold the input shaft in place in the gearcase. Then you could free float the secondary. Most likely you would need to gear up also due to the fact that the DD secondary has a lot of overdrive built into it compared to the older style roller cat secondary.
Here is a little experiment for all of you guys to do. Pick the back of your sled off of the ground. Lift the hood, pull the belt guard off and start the sled. Now look down the belt, like you were looking to see if the belt is aligned by eye. Now rev the sled up and engage the primary and bring it up to speed. You will see the belt pulled out of alignment until the clutches go to a 1 to 1 ratio, then as is shifts into overdrive it will pull the belt out of alignment the other direction. This is why it needs to float.
Why does this happen, because the belt moves a greater distance in the primary than the secondary (sheave angle) until it hits a 1 to 1 ratio then the belt has moved the same distance in both clutches. Then the opposite happens in overdrive. This is why gearing down helps belt life, it get the belt higher in the primary and closer to alignment. As the belt is out of alignment it take a lot of grip (spring pressure and helix) in the secondary to keep it from slipping.
Just my .02
The only way to make the older style secondary work would be to do this conversion with a machined keyed hub and then have a keyed shaft and gear made. You need the big cup on the back of the secondary to clear the dd case. When you have the input shaft made you would want a groove machined in it so you could use a snap ring to hold the input shaft in place in the gearcase. Then you could free float the secondary. Most likely you would need to gear up also due to the fact that the DD secondary has a lot of overdrive built into it compared to the older style roller cat secondary.
Here is a little experiment for all of you guys to do. Pick the back of your sled off of the ground. Lift the hood, pull the belt guard off and start the sled. Now look down the belt, like you were looking to see if the belt is aligned by eye. Now rev the sled up and engage the primary and bring it up to speed. You will see the belt pulled out of alignment until the clutches go to a 1 to 1 ratio, then as is shifts into overdrive it will pull the belt out of alignment the other direction. This is why it needs to float.
Why does this happen, because the belt moves a greater distance in the primary than the secondary (sheave angle) until it hits a 1 to 1 ratio then the belt has moved the same distance in both clutches. Then the opposite happens in overdrive. This is why gearing down helps belt life, it get the belt higher in the primary and closer to alignment. As the belt is out of alignment it take a lot of grip (spring pressure and helix) in the secondary to keep it from slipping.
Just my .02
Team secondary with a 58/40.46 red.black......some heavier tip weights around 64-68g and a 140/300-330 primary spring. I would have loved to play around with setups with a good secondary!! Let us know what you try and find!
Well thats good news. See if he has a hub for a secondary clutch to go with it.
Now you have to find someone to do a conversion on a older clutch for you. Then get a keyed hub made and you will be on your way.
How do you get the team or the cat roller to go in far enough to get the belt aligned without doing a dd conversion on it. I must be missing something here.
You also need to find if he tried to float the secondary. If so how he held the gear in place in the DD case.
Are you saying they DO make a keyed shaft for the DD or just for the chaincase conversion?
Did not realize the link did not work. All they did was convert the old roller clutch to work on the DD setup. Was still a splined setup. I had a 11" bearcat clutch converted instead of the smaller roller clutch also.
http://www.xtremeperformancesports.com/Clutch_Conversion_Kit.html
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