Thoughts on this....DD secondary replacement

[winter brew]

Is it possible to build a DD input shaft that would open up our options for secondary clutches? Something keyed to accept cat roller, polaris or Team clutch would really open up ALOT of options for tuning on a very popular sled. I know I'm not alone in not liking the DD secondary, IMO this is the weak point of the drive system and there's not any reasonably priced alternatives out there. Wouldn't this be the cheapest/easiest route to allow a secondary change?? Just a thought-

 

[WyoBoy1000]

I think the m1000 would benefit the most from a team tied driven clutch but they don't offer them for the dd, WHY?? If its because it needs to float then why not build a floating adapter and a clutch to fit it.

 

[winter brew]

I believe we havn't seen any clutches to replace the DD because of the size and length of the splined input shaft....it doesn't lend itself well to existing secondary designs.....but with a different input shaft?
I don't have my Cat anymore so I can't do any measuring/eyeballing to see if this is a possibility but I can't see why not. Someone with the knowledge of what metal, heat treat etc...might be able to come up with something and make some $$. ???

 

[WyoBoy1000]

BDX should be able to do it rather easy seeings how they already make the unit. The only thing that would put a halt to the design would be if you can't get the clutch in far enough.

 

[furthur]

Does the team have enough diameter to preserve the ratio? Plus, aside from better spring selection, what is the benefit? I still say with better spring selection, shift assist, and the adjustable pre-load of the early models, it works pretty good...

John

 

[WyoBoy1000]

the new team tied clutch doesn't put any twisting friction on the belt, reducing heat, they back shift way faster and upshift like crazy and hold the belt with very little spring pressure. They can in most situation pull an 18* steeper helix, that should tell you how fast they shift. Snotech has an article on them.

 

[winter brew]

Diameter is the same, the '05-'06 DD secondaries were smaller.
The DD secondary REALLY holds back the M's IMO. I played with alot of things on my M7 & Engine-Tech 900. To get a really good backshift you have to run such a stiff spring AND such a shallow helix that it restricts the upshift. That is why Cat came out with the Orange spring in '07....as a band-aid for a secondary that doesn't provide a strong backshift signal (IMHO).
I don't want to turn this into a how to tune a DD secondary thread.....they are just not the best choice for a mountain sled with a big heavy track. Not many guys trying to adapt them to their older sleds. A standard Cat roller, Polaris button secondary or Team would open up a new realm of tuning for the M-sleds.....being able to run heavy tipped weights and still have a strong/quick backshift. IMO there are HUGE climbing track speeds in these sleds that are not being realized with the limited setup range that works with the DD. Again, JMHO-

 

[WyoBoy1000]

I honestly think AC had it right with the 4 post primary on the 07 m1000 as far as these dd work, the extra weight, I think pulled the secondary better. I saw 60mph track speed on my 07 and a lot less on my 09 but the 09 hooks so much better its hard to if its just the added traction is lowering track speed. But I can feel when climbing the secondary backshifts with any reduction in speed and wont let it shift back up due to the stiff spring. Its common sense that the tied clutches would be a huge advantage. They have been using them in atv's for quite some time now.

 

[sidehill]

I have run the STM and the old style cat roller secondarys with the DD setup and both worked really well. The biggest problem is you still cannot float the secondary with either of these two cluches. Both cluches improved performance over the stock clutch. Still have to get the motor mounted more rigid to get really good belt life.

(NOTE) Running the older cat roller secondary did just as well as the STM with a cheaper price tag.

 

[ACMtnCat]

(NOTE) Running the older cat roller secondary did just as well as the STM with a cheaper price tag.

Question. How or why is the old Cat roller different from my CPC conversion kit?

I ran a 53/49* in my 1M 900, but run a 40/36* with the same spring and same primary setup. How does that work?

 

[meister]

Has anyone installed the chaincase, drive shaft, jacks shaft, and brake off a 04 F7. I thought I would also like to try the new Tied Team secondary but the only choice I see would be too install the chain case Would like to see some pics if some has done this conversion.

 

[winter brew]

Question. How or why is the old Cat roller different from my CPC conversion kit?

I ran a 53/49* in my 1M 900, but run a 40/36* with the same spring and same primary setup. How does that work?

Exactly.

 

[ACMtnCat]

BDX The only thing that would put a halt to the design would be if you can't get the clutch in far enough.

Hmmm.... is that why? Anyone know?

 

[ACMtnCat]

Exactly.

That's NOT an answer! As far as I can tell just looking at both side by side, they should work the same and run the same angle helix. I should be able to run a steeper helix!!!!!

Could it be gear ratio? Sheave angle?

That's it! I'm going to make Dale "clutch tuner" Cutler enlighten me as to why!

 

[sidehill]

Question. How or why is the old Cat roller different from my CPC conversion kit?

I ran a 53/49* in my 1M 900, but run a 40/36* with the same spring and same primary setup. How does that work?

1) gearing
2) the dd secondary has a lot more built in overdrive
3) sheave angle
4) belt compounds
5) not being able to float the secondary (belt misalignment)

I ran a 50/46 helix in my STM DD clutch along with higher gearing.

 

[F_ast]

1) gearing
2) the dd secondary has a lot more built in overdrive
3) sheave angle
4) belt compounds
5) not being able to float the secondary (belt misalignment)

I ran a 50/46 helix in my STM DD clutch along with higher gearing.

#5 is the biggest one. The splined shaft on the DD case and clutch are like that because this setup is not designed to float... To me, this is the single biggest reason for belt slip, if not aligned properly. There have been numerous topics and discussion on this issue on HCS about proper alignment, setup and clutch tuning. Pretty well on on the firecat 05-06.

The DD case is not designed to take the hammer that the floating clutch setup provides. A jack shaft setup is much more susceptible to taking the abuse before it reaches the crucial components of the chain case on the other side of the sled. The meshed gears and precision alignment of the DD case, i cannot see it lasting to the constant clutch hammer of a floating roller setup.

 

[N2OTOGO]

I have run the STM and the old style cat roller secondarys with the DD setup and both worked really well. The biggest problem is you still cannot float the secondary with either of these two cluches. Both cluches improved performance over the stock clutch. Still have to get the motor mounted more rigid to get really good belt life.

(NOTE) Running the older cat roller secondary did just as well as the STM with a cheaper price tag.

How did you run the older cat secondary. Did you have it splined?
I have been bouncing between the STM and getting an old roller splined. Unfortunately the only shop I know of splining the older secondarys dont have a good reputation.
http://www.xtremeperformancesports.com/Performance_Products.html

 

[furthur]

I always thought smaller helix angles were from the increased secondary dia., but that doesn't explain the lack of backshift signal. Some thought that would be cured with a torsion spring conversion, but they run even smaller helix angles. Is it REALLY the gearcase, after all these years? How can that be?

 

[WyoBoy1000]

As much as the m1000 torques you will never be able to align it perfect, either you align it for resting position or under torque. but it changes as you get on and off the throttle.
If someone can verify if there is enough room to float the team tied secondary in and out without hitting the dd case. I have a friend that can either chop and weld a float shaft on or build the whole shaft. will have to look into if the case can be moddified for the right seal and or bearing or if you would have to do a bullit case cover, which may be more than its worth.

BDX should look into this as they prob have the most experience with building dd parts. I know at least 8 people that would do the swap. and after we started spanking everyone else they would to.

 

[Vern]

i thought about this a couple years back when i got my m7. i dont see what would be so hard about making the keyed shaft if you got the right equipment. from what it looks like all bdx would have to do is change the shaft up on the top gear instead of splining it, key it, it would probably be easier than cuttin all the splines anyway. other than having to change there equipment up just to try it.