Team tied or wait for tss-04?
- Thread starter maineiac
- Start date
The helix is marked with the letters instead of numbers.
The springs were pretty close to a green pink SLP primary and a stock secondary.
Team springs.
The springs were pretty close to a green pink SLP primary and a stock secondary.
Team springs.
Sheet metal, I can't help but think something is up if you went through 7 belts in 2yrs? How many miles in those 2 yrs? I have about 500miles on mine so far, still on the used belt that the sled came with. Heat doesn't seem to be an issue but I have a lot of venting.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
At 6'2" 220#
Every sled i have ever had has ate belts compared to my buddies.
I usually never stop and let it rest.
If i am running on fumes after a ride most other guys are on half tank.
Usually get 35-40 miles per tank.
01 zx 700 stock clutching
04 rev 800 dj's kit
09 xp 800 ". "
10 d8 a2d sledworks kit.
11 pro. Tried 4+ sec springs 3 primary 3 dif helix's in the tied.
Replaced motor mounts. Etc. etc.
I have a bilge fan venting my clutch side.
If you're clutching builds heat. No amount of venting passive or active will make a particle of difference when the sled is run hard.
99% of people who think they ride hard........ Aren't
Best belt life i have ever got was 150 miles or so before now.
I am at 200 miles on this belt.
This is the only clutch setup i have rode that i dont smell burning belt while bouncing thru the trees whipping it all day.
Trackspeed is only comparative between two sleds on the same hill with the same rider, same gearing and same track.
Every sled i have ever had has ate belts compared to my buddies.
I usually never stop and let it rest.
If i am running on fumes after a ride most other guys are on half tank.
Usually get 35-40 miles per tank.
01 zx 700 stock clutching
04 rev 800 dj's kit
09 xp 800 ". "
10 d8 a2d sledworks kit.
11 pro. Tried 4+ sec springs 3 primary 3 dif helix's in the tied.
Replaced motor mounts. Etc. etc.
I have a bilge fan venting my clutch side.
If you're clutching builds heat. No amount of venting passive or active will make a particle of difference when the sled is run hard.
99% of people who think they ride hard........ Aren't
Best belt life i have ever got was 150 miles or so before now.
I am at 200 miles on this belt.
This is the only clutch setup i have rode that i dont smell burning belt while bouncing thru the trees whipping it all day.
Trackspeed is only comparative between two sleds on the same hill with the same rider, same gearing and same track.
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I went back and worth between tied and the tss-04 this fall. For me I felt the tss-04 was better pulling but lacked considerably in the throttle response area. I tend to spend my days anymore in the trees and ditches not south pulling a hill anymore. I have since only ran the tied and love it. The trottle response is great and I still have some decent track speed. Early this year I went down to Fairview with a Tri city Polaris guy and did some clutching for my 910 and by the time we left the sled was running better than ever. I have continued to test spring/ Helixes/ weight configuration in my tri city weights but tend to find myself going back to that setup. I has running neck and neck with MTntk turbo. My speedo doesn't work but he said we were running 63 mph up the race hill by the parking lot. There wasn't much new snow then and we had most of the hill tracked out pretty quick. But it still pulled pretty well and throttle response was very crisp.
I was running
Tri city Polaris pro weights
Loaded 66 grams, with it all but 1.5 grams in the tip. Everything else was in the mid and heel.
100/340 primary spring
Tied secondary
Black/purple spring
73-59.46 helix
This was running at 10,000' exactly
I was running
Tri city Polaris pro weights
Loaded 66 grams, with it all but 1.5 grams in the tip. Everything else was in the mid and heel.
100/340 primary spring
Tied secondary
Black/purple spring
73-59.46 helix
This was running at 10,000' exactly
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G
geo
Well-known member
I think clutch heat tells the biggest story on how good a combo is. More than track speed. But track speed is what we try to attain. Instant, sustained, finish.
I also think venting for clutch heat is over-rated. The pro is good there for me but I added a fair bit of venting in the top of the hood because I ride a lot of trees. The pipe is a much greater heat source than the clutches under the hood. Heat rises and I like to let it get out where it wants to go. If I needed a blow hole it would be mounted right under the windshield at the top of the "tent".
I use the heat more than the trackspeed as a tuning tool initially. It only takes 10 min. If my left foot is feeling more heat then my right foot I got it wrong. I ride non stop 75% of the time. From truck back to truck. I can and have destroyed a belt in a ride. I've even destroyed a belt in 10 miles when I ignored the heat. The sled still felt fast though lol. RPM was perfect lol.
Heat can destroy a belt but it is the forces that created the heat that did the damage. Venting for clutch heat is like the chicken before the egg thing IMO.
Track speed is a very subjective thing as we all know but that is what we want to increase with HP and clutch tuning. Lot of money can be thrown into weights and springs and clutches real quick lol. For some it is the first purchase to increase the performance.
Luckily there are some good combo's out there but for some their own package is not what the combo was tuned for so you tune more.
I have found that where you look at the track speed is just as important as the actual mph. Some times less is better for me.
Example: I can set-up for 50 + initial, 48-42 sustained but drop down to 20-15mph in the last 20 feet. A much better combo for me flashes to 46, holds 44-42 and never drops below 40- 39 right to the bitter end. Second set-up runs at proper temp all day long. First set-up is smoking, lol, but it showed highest trackspeed, depending on when I looked.
I think that is a backshift thing. Upshift can show impressive mph #'s but the right combo of upshift and backshift keeps the belt cool. Cool belt means more HP to the track IMO again. Backshift is a combo thing not just a spring rate thing.
Getting back to the Tied and it's theory. It is different because it does not twist while shifting. That makes sense to me, even excites me lol (something new finally). Should build less heat (heat is HP lost) because you don't have to put as much side pressure on the belt to keep it from slipping while twisting in reverse direction into it's selected "gear". But many are on the shelf now.
How much side pressure you need has never changed. You need enough to not slip the belt but not TOO much lol to transfer the most HP. But,,, how much you need and when is important to think about too. WFO needs more than 1/2 throttle just like 3" needs more than 2".
I think, with the Tied and why they are on the shelf, it is the combo thing combined with the old school thinking of tuning with sec. spring pressure that started when we got these compression clutches with elec. reverse.
The helix provides the most squeeze effect at WFO but you add in spring rate. If you get enough squeeze with those two added together at WFO using a steep helix what happens at part throttle with the heavy spring? It creates heat because of excessive side force. Many reasons for that IMO but old stuff only needed about 40 to 90 lbs of side pressure from the spring even with long tracks. What we consider excessive heat has changed since we got these types of clutches too. But,,, heat is still HP lost and most still spend less than 10% of our time at WFO.
Primary weights have evolved with these secondaries. Most of the performance they add is to overcome the high secondary spring pressure at part throttle with added weight and new curves to fit in the "box" and roll back easier. They do a darn good job at it too but more weight means more spring rate in the primary too, to help them return and to keep the rpm. because,,, they are heavy.
What I learned from these new weights (got a drawer full lol). The curve can dictate rpm as much as the weight. Sometimes zero or minimal rpm change with 2 grams or more added or removed. 3 holes is better than 2 so base weight is not as critical. RPM differences between deep and trail is always there because now the secondary spring pressure, because of load, is a larger influence. The total base weight limits primary spring selection. HP loses (elevation changes, RAD) is too noticeable (compared to stock). But they do perform.
So more weight in the primary plus more spring to help, even with less curve, to help overcome high secondary spring dictated by the limitations of helix when you still have twist as part of the function.
The Tied does not twist leaving room for a shallower angle helix and needs less side force to JUST hold the belt.
Since I've started using the Tied ( 3yrs and two different sleds) I've gone around the world with combos and back lol. Even put it on the shelf a time or two. It is heavy.
I like to do stuff like that more than most lol. I'm on helix # 7 or 8 and have most of the springs lol. Tried all the recommended combos and some worked better than others for performance and heat but none were without some place I felt that it was still dictating rpm too much or forcing me to use those new style weights that I wanted to get rid of for reasons above. I just didn't want to use one end against the other.
Don't think the Tied has been explored enough for it's new feature and helix selection is still lacking IMO. Making the secondary follow the primary and still squeeze enough is still a "spring thing". Even with the older, less side pressure secondary set-ups it was know tuning with secondary spring pressure was less efficient and created heat to prove it.
I don't believe any of the compression secondary are most efficient with a generally flat helix angle. Progressive is where it is at. Where you start and finish on that curve is load specific (3" is different than 2", etc) but we can get closer than what is recommended today.
When you get closer with helix angle (Tied allows the greatest range and allows the largest angles to be used because no twist to break the squeeze) it needs less spring to help it hold. When the secondary has less spring you can run less weight to get aggressive upshift. When you run less weight you don't need to go to the new profiles and small changes are seen and felt again. Less weight backshifts easier so less force is required from the rear.
I'm getting close I think. I've dropped 8grs per weight from what may be considered normal but only 20 on my finish of my primary spring. That means it can respond to the motor quicker and takes less to backshift. The weights I use are old school with about an 11 series profile and have 3 points to adjust. Was very easy to get flat shift. Very little change in RPM humping through the lines and stay the same on the trail. The side benefit has been very little clutch maintenance or belt cleaning due to it running cool. Always.
The helix I'm using now is a 62/54F with a 100/200 spring I've been trying to use for a year and a half. Perfect? I doubt it lol but I haven't changed since I got here and that is unusual for me lol.
I don't like to post set-ups for obvious reasons but I thought I would show where you can take a Tied. If I had a 100/ 180 spring I might have tried it but I don't lol.
What a book ,eh lol. I wanted to keep it simple but,,, lol. Any discussion? I kinda miss the learning curve from people that have different than the average sled.
I also think venting for clutch heat is over-rated. The pro is good there for me but I added a fair bit of venting in the top of the hood because I ride a lot of trees. The pipe is a much greater heat source than the clutches under the hood. Heat rises and I like to let it get out where it wants to go. If I needed a blow hole it would be mounted right under the windshield at the top of the "tent".
I use the heat more than the trackspeed as a tuning tool initially. It only takes 10 min. If my left foot is feeling more heat then my right foot I got it wrong. I ride non stop 75% of the time. From truck back to truck. I can and have destroyed a belt in a ride. I've even destroyed a belt in 10 miles when I ignored the heat. The sled still felt fast though lol. RPM was perfect lol.
Heat can destroy a belt but it is the forces that created the heat that did the damage. Venting for clutch heat is like the chicken before the egg thing IMO.
Track speed is a very subjective thing as we all know but that is what we want to increase with HP and clutch tuning. Lot of money can be thrown into weights and springs and clutches real quick lol. For some it is the first purchase to increase the performance.
Luckily there are some good combo's out there but for some their own package is not what the combo was tuned for so you tune more.
I have found that where you look at the track speed is just as important as the actual mph. Some times less is better for me.
Example: I can set-up for 50 + initial, 48-42 sustained but drop down to 20-15mph in the last 20 feet. A much better combo for me flashes to 46, holds 44-42 and never drops below 40- 39 right to the bitter end. Second set-up runs at proper temp all day long. First set-up is smoking, lol, but it showed highest trackspeed, depending on when I looked.
I think that is a backshift thing. Upshift can show impressive mph #'s but the right combo of upshift and backshift keeps the belt cool. Cool belt means more HP to the track IMO again. Backshift is a combo thing not just a spring rate thing.
Getting back to the Tied and it's theory. It is different because it does not twist while shifting. That makes sense to me, even excites me lol (something new finally). Should build less heat (heat is HP lost) because you don't have to put as much side pressure on the belt to keep it from slipping while twisting in reverse direction into it's selected "gear". But many are on the shelf now.
How much side pressure you need has never changed. You need enough to not slip the belt but not TOO much lol to transfer the most HP. But,,, how much you need and when is important to think about too. WFO needs more than 1/2 throttle just like 3" needs more than 2".
I think, with the Tied and why they are on the shelf, it is the combo thing combined with the old school thinking of tuning with sec. spring pressure that started when we got these compression clutches with elec. reverse.
The helix provides the most squeeze effect at WFO but you add in spring rate. If you get enough squeeze with those two added together at WFO using a steep helix what happens at part throttle with the heavy spring? It creates heat because of excessive side force. Many reasons for that IMO but old stuff only needed about 40 to 90 lbs of side pressure from the spring even with long tracks. What we consider excessive heat has changed since we got these types of clutches too. But,,, heat is still HP lost and most still spend less than 10% of our time at WFO.
Primary weights have evolved with these secondaries. Most of the performance they add is to overcome the high secondary spring pressure at part throttle with added weight and new curves to fit in the "box" and roll back easier. They do a darn good job at it too but more weight means more spring rate in the primary too, to help them return and to keep the rpm. because,,, they are heavy.
What I learned from these new weights (got a drawer full lol). The curve can dictate rpm as much as the weight. Sometimes zero or minimal rpm change with 2 grams or more added or removed. 3 holes is better than 2 so base weight is not as critical. RPM differences between deep and trail is always there because now the secondary spring pressure, because of load, is a larger influence. The total base weight limits primary spring selection. HP loses (elevation changes, RAD) is too noticeable (compared to stock). But they do perform.
So more weight in the primary plus more spring to help, even with less curve, to help overcome high secondary spring dictated by the limitations of helix when you still have twist as part of the function.
The Tied does not twist leaving room for a shallower angle helix and needs less side force to JUST hold the belt.
Since I've started using the Tied ( 3yrs and two different sleds) I've gone around the world with combos and back lol. Even put it on the shelf a time or two. It is heavy.
I like to do stuff like that more than most lol. I'm on helix # 7 or 8 and have most of the springs lol. Tried all the recommended combos and some worked better than others for performance and heat but none were without some place I felt that it was still dictating rpm too much or forcing me to use those new style weights that I wanted to get rid of for reasons above. I just didn't want to use one end against the other.
Don't think the Tied has been explored enough for it's new feature and helix selection is still lacking IMO. Making the secondary follow the primary and still squeeze enough is still a "spring thing". Even with the older, less side pressure secondary set-ups it was know tuning with secondary spring pressure was less efficient and created heat to prove it.
I don't believe any of the compression secondary are most efficient with a generally flat helix angle. Progressive is where it is at. Where you start and finish on that curve is load specific (3" is different than 2", etc) but we can get closer than what is recommended today.
When you get closer with helix angle (Tied allows the greatest range and allows the largest angles to be used because no twist to break the squeeze) it needs less spring to help it hold. When the secondary has less spring you can run less weight to get aggressive upshift. When you run less weight you don't need to go to the new profiles and small changes are seen and felt again. Less weight backshifts easier so less force is required from the rear.
I'm getting close I think. I've dropped 8grs per weight from what may be considered normal but only 20 on my finish of my primary spring. That means it can respond to the motor quicker and takes less to backshift. The weights I use are old school with about an 11 series profile and have 3 points to adjust. Was very easy to get flat shift. Very little change in RPM humping through the lines and stay the same on the trail. The side benefit has been very little clutch maintenance or belt cleaning due to it running cool. Always.
The helix I'm using now is a 62/54F with a 100/200 spring I've been trying to use for a year and a half. Perfect? I doubt it lol but I haven't changed since I got here and that is unusual for me lol.
I don't like to post set-ups for obvious reasons but I thought I would show where you can take a Tied. If I had a 100/ 180 spring I might have tried it but I don't lol.
What a book ,eh lol. I wanted to keep it simple but,,, lol. Any discussion? I kinda miss the learning curve from people that have different than the average sled.
I have wanted to try what you are throwing down, (I think)??? I want to go to a lighter primary spring and the unload my weights a little and then do the same with my secondary try a lighter spring with a shallower helix. I think the norm right now with the 3" tracks is squeeze the belt so it doesn't slip and the heavier springs have become standard practice.
Geo I think you just gave me the courage to try!!
Geo I think you just gave me the courage to try!!
G
geo
Well-known member
LOL Kcj. It has never seemed to me that you lacked courage when it came to modding your sled.
Just FYI. I have a cut down 155 geared down to 2.33 and a bit of extra hp (always, apples to apples). I call it a 2". The 100x62 start was a bit much (flash was 150 rpm) and 100x64 too little (no flash). It required I reshuffle the weight to add to the heal (.9 added to the heal,.4 removed from the mid, . 5 from the tip). Brought my flash to 50 rpm. I engage in the snow at 3200- 3300 rpm.
Flash is the bit of overrev you get during the initial backshift. You need some on a mountain sled. At all ratio's.
Another FYI thing since you have a Vipec. Load dictates fuel need. If you ride an open 2stroke rippin' around in the mountains, to use the torque you shift up and use the clutch. Mx jetting doesn't work in the mountains.
I had to add around 4% in the lows and 5 to 8% in the mids up to valve opening on an already much richer than stock map with this set-up.
Just FYI. I have a cut down 155 geared down to 2.33 and a bit of extra hp (always, apples to apples). I call it a 2". The 100x62 start was a bit much (flash was 150 rpm) and 100x64 too little (no flash). It required I reshuffle the weight to add to the heal (.9 added to the heal,.4 removed from the mid, . 5 from the tip). Brought my flash to 50 rpm. I engage in the snow at 3200- 3300 rpm.
Flash is the bit of overrev you get during the initial backshift. You need some on a mountain sled. At all ratio's.
Another FYI thing since you have a Vipec. Load dictates fuel need. If you ride an open 2stroke rippin' around in the mountains, to use the torque you shift up and use the clutch. Mx jetting doesn't work in the mountains.
I had to add around 4% in the lows and 5 to 8% in the mids up to valve opening on an already much richer than stock map with this set-up.
I have a spare drive axle that the drivers moved on when the avalance hit me and I was thinking about taking that axle and having 7 tooth drivers put on it and gear my sled down. I have 2.14 gearing now /.92 going to the 7 tooth driver should give me close to 2.33. If I did my Mountainhorse formula correct 
.
Yeah I can easily add the extra fuel I will need for loading the motor differently. And if it doesn't work easy enough to load the current map back in. Gotta love the vipec.
Thanks for the ideas I will let you know how it goes, if we have enough snow for that long
P.s. The 7 tooth driver on the cmx was actually lukerz idea, but I think it's a good one. I understand I will gain a little resistance on the track but might make clutching and holding r's a little easier
.Yeah I can easily add the extra fuel I will need for loading the motor differently. And if it doesn't work easy enough to load the current map back in. Gotta love the vipec
.Thanks for the ideas
I will let you know how it goes, if we have enough snow for that long P.s. The 7 tooth driver on the cmx was actually lukerz idea, but I think it's a good one. I understand I will gain a little resistance on the track but might make clutching and holding r's a little easier
geo, thanks for your info, relly interesting!
Do you have any suggestions for me?
I want the sled to work good up to 60mph with fast backshift all the way.
Any suggestions on helix? So I dont have to buy them all....
Do you think the 62/54F will work for my riding?
Im thinking of trying a helix like that, with my Rooster weights and 150-290 primary spring.
Here is what I wrote:
Do you have any suggestions for me?
I want the sled to work good up to 60mph with fast backshift all the way.
Any suggestions on helix? So I dont have to buy them all....
Do you think the 62/54F will work for my riding?
Im thinking of trying a helix like that, with my Rooster weights and 150-290 primary spring.
Here is what I wrote:
G
geo
Well-known member
No suggestions, just discussion.
Have you ever visited Dynamo Joes site? Lots of info but the best part is how he "teaches" to break down the mystery of tuning a CVT system methodically.
Read it a few times because he never tells you what to do, just explains his method of thinking it out. If you get it makes things easier. Ignore the doo stuff lol.
What do you mean when you say poor backshift? RPM loss? MPH doesn't return? Wild swings in both?
Hot secondary. Usually when I get a hot secondary, it is controlling the rpm (too stiff). Usually when I get a hot primary the secondary is too soft (backshift issue). If both are hot I waited too long to check lol or my alignment specs are out.
Have you ever visited Dynamo Joes site? Lots of info but the best part is how he "teaches" to break down the mystery of tuning a CVT system methodically.
Read it a few times because he never tells you what to do, just explains his method of thinking it out. If you get it makes things easier. Ignore the doo stuff lol.
What do you mean when you say poor backshift? RPM loss? MPH doesn't return? Wild swings in both?
Hot secondary. Usually when I get a hot secondary, it is controlling the rpm (too stiff). Usually when I get a hot primary the secondary is too soft (backshift issue). If both are hot I waited too long to check lol or my alignment specs are out.
Been on Dynamo Joes a long time ago, but I will go there again!
Im not loosing rpm or mph, it just looses its response.
It takes a bit longer for it to hit full rpm again, when Im off/on throttle.
Im not loosing rpm or mph, it just looses its response.
It takes a bit longer for it to hit full rpm again, when Im off/on throttle.
