suspension rides bad on trails- carls float evols

[ullose272]

last year i upgraded to carls valved float evols and on big hits they are great as well as mtn riding, but on trails the rear seems to pack out or ride low and bottom alot almost. ive messed with pressures ect and could never figure it out last year with the limited riding. but im wondering if because i have a 36" front end, and it rides at least an inch higher than stock, its causing imbalance and putting too much pressure on the rear track shock? thoughts? im wondering if i should get the fronts shortened?

 

[rydningen]

We have the exact same problem on a 2013 which has way to little sag in the front end with a set of fox evol shocks.

The porion of the track touching the ground was to little, and as you say it puts to much on the rear.

This rider is maybe 285 ready to ride, so I guess the weight makes this problem very noticeable as he would bottom out very easy.

When we let pressure out of the fronts things got better, but riding with these shocks like that left the rear completely blown, it has been rebuilt but is still waay to soft now, thinking the guy that rebuilt them did not check the valve stack for damage (not carls).

We are now contemplating changing them out for a coilover set, maybe this works better for such a heavy rider.

 

[ullose272]

We have the exact same problem on a 2013 which has way to little sag in the front end with a set of fox evol shocks.

The porion of the track touching the ground was to little, and as you say it puts to much on the rear.

This rider is maybe 285 ready to ride, so I guess the weight makes this problem very noticeable as he would bottom out very easy.

When we let pressure out of the fronts things got better, but riding with these shocks like that left the rear completely blown, it has been rebuilt but is still waay to soft now, thinking the guy that rebuilt them did not check the valve stack for damage (not carls).

We are now contemplating changing them out for a coilover set, maybe this works better for such a heavy rider.

Ya im about 220 with gear and av pack. And your right the front has very little sag



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[Reg2view]

last year i upgraded to carls valved float evols and on big hits they are great as well as mtn riding, but on trails the rear seems to pack out or ride low and bottom alot almost. ive messed with pressures ect and could never figure it out last year with the limited riding. but im wondering if because i have a 36" front end, and it rides at least an inch higher than stock, its causing imbalance and putting too much pressure on the rear track shock? thoughts? im wondering if i should get the fronts shortened?

I've run the Carl's float setup since 12, and don't have the 36 front. Their float front works outstanding on the pro-ride with stock arms, FWIW. Rear is great in the pow, can take huge hits with the RTS air pressure up, but not very compliant on the trail stutters and g-outs as it comes from Carl's, trying another valve stack again this year (FTS is not a float, it's a zero pro). No bottoming unless you pressure down, and you'll get excessive sag if you do, and the ride doesn't improve much, either. Now, it is an uncoupled skid, and not a trail sled. Your front may very well be making it worse. Have you talked with Carl's about it? I've bought lots of stuff over the years, they usually know their products very well.

 

[ullose272]

I've run the Carl's float setup since 12, and don't have the 36 front. Their float front works outstanding on the pro-ride with stock arms, FWIW. Rear is great in the pow, can take huge hits with the RTS air pressure up, but not very compliant on the trail stutters and g-outs as it comes from Carl's, trying another valve stack again this year (FTS is not a float, it's a zero pro). No bottoming unless you pressure down, and you'll get excessive sag if you do, and the ride doesn't improve much, either. Now, it is an uncoupled skid, and not a trail sled. Your front may very well be making it worse. Have you talked with Carl's about it? I've bought lots of stuff over the years, they usually know their products very well.

I talked a little with them last year, but i think i need to talk some more

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[mountainhorse]

What pressures are you running in the main and EVOL on all of your shocks?

Float2 EVOL's, Float3 EVOL Kashima, Evol R, EVOL RC-2?? (which ones)

What, exact, length are the shocks?

Which arms are you running?

 

[ullose272]

What pressures are you running in the main and EVOL on all of your shocks?

Float2 EVOL's, Float3 EVOL Kashima, Evol R, EVOL RC-2?? (which ones)

What, exact, length are the shocks?

Which arms are you running?

Ill have to check pressures tonight, i know they were set to what carls said to on there set up sheet. Its an alternative impact front end. They are float 3 evols front. Float 3 center and float 3 evol with rebound adj on rts

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[corpeleven]

Assuming your ride height/preload is correct - Most of the time if your suspension is "packing" -your named issues indicate this -, it's a rebound damping issue - meaning your rebound is too slow. Your suspension cannot recover quickly enough before you encounter the next impact. If you have externally adjustable rebound, back off the rebound a click or two and repeat your trail test. If it still packs, back it off again. If you don't have adjustable rebound, you'll have to have the rebound adjusted via re-valving the rebound shim stack.

 

[SXViper]

last year i upgraded to carls valved float evols and on big hits they are great as well as mtn riding, but on trails the rear seems to pack out or ride low and bottom alot almost. ive messed with pressures ect and could never figure it out last year with thed riding. but im wondering if because i have a 36" front end, and it rides at least an inch higher than stock, its causing imbalance and putting too much pressure on the rear track shock? thoughts? im wondering if i should get the fronts shortened?

I think you're correct. The shorter arms combined with shocks that are to long has caused the imbalance. You are to high in the front and its overloading the rear. To test this measure the sag in the rear. If i recall correctly want to be around two to three inches in the rear and three quarters in the front. You can also use scales to quantify weight distribution.

Should this be the case it seems to me you'll be chasing your tail trying to fix it with preload or rebound dampening and in turn compromise other attributes of ride quality.

 

[geo]

Ride height (rider on sled) of your suspension should not be confused with how the sled sits on the floor.

If you never get the ride height set correctly on a Holz type suspension you miss the sweet spot on the RTS. This is particularly true with sled type valving because it is usually designed with a lot of rebound dampening which works best on rollers and not so well on stutters.
Kinda like a sand bike suspension set-up. More stable but stay out of the chop or it will pack -up.

Ride height on a stock pro is a balance of RTS and IFS mostly. Theoretically, with rider on board, the FTS is just touching down and a little slack in the limiter strap is seen. Tuning it in is a matter of small changes if involving Evo 3's (ie. -5 psi front and +10 in the rear) done at the same time to keep the FTS in a "just loading" position. With the Evo part you simply tune the chamber pressure for use of all the travel after your ride height is set.
IMO mixing Evo's with straight rate springs is a mistake (on the Pro especially 'cause the ends are so light) but anything can be tuned around eventually.
This is a great powder set-up because the Evo 3's are as supple as any spring set-up I have had with the side benefits of lightest weight, least snow build up and longest rebuild intervals in snow use. All 4 tuned in is very nice.


That being said, the Pro is set-up for powder and can be a challenge on trail or low snow with stock skid location and set-up.
If you have a Pro and need low snow-trail type of sled (like last season for a lot of us) the Timbersled rear arm kit is a huge improvement here and even better in the hills in powder too. MO.

This kit and it's adjustability allows enough changes in rail position to get where you need to be for both worlds. The rear is adjustable for ride height (without just pressure) and the longer limiter strap (allowed because of the coupling and geometry) can lead to (with proper set-up of pressures for the individual) only needing to adjust the coupling set-up for different terrain.

With the changing winter environment, I'm starting to think this is the best thing I have done to my Pro.
Saved me money too 'cause I don't have to buy an Axys lol.

 

[ullose272]

Ride height (rider on sled) of your suspension should not be confused with how the sled sits on the floor.

If you never get the ride height set correctly on a Holz type suspension you miss the sweet spot on the RTS. This is particularly true with sled type valving because it is usually designed with a lot of rebound dampening which works best on rollers and not so well on stutters.
Kinda like a sand bike suspension set-up. More stable but stay out of the chop or it will pack -up.

Ride height on a stock pro is a balance of RTS and IFS mostly. Theoretically, with rider on board, the FTS is just touching down and a little slack in the limiter strap is seen. Tuning it in is a matter of small changes if involving Evo 3's (ie. -5 psi front and +10 in the rear) done at the same time to keep the FTS in a "just loading" position. With the Evo part you simply tune the chamber pressure for use of all the travel after your ride height is set.
IMO mixing Evo's with straight rate springs is a mistake (on the Pro especially 'cause the ends are so light) but anything can be tuned around eventually.
This is a great powder set-up because the Evo 3's are as supple as any spring set-up I have had with the side benefits of lightest weight, least snow build up and longest rebuild intervals in snow use. All 4 tuned in is very nice.


That being said, the Pro is set-up for powder and can be a challenge on trail or low snow with stock skid location and set-up.
If you have a Pro and need low snow-trail type of sled (like last season for a lot of us) the Timbersled rear arm kit is a huge improvement here and even better in the hills in powder too. MO.

This kit and it's adjustability allows enough changes in rail position to get where you need to be for both worlds. The rear is adjustable for ride height (without just pressure) and the longer limiter strap (allowed because of the coupling and geometry) can lead to (with proper set-up of pressures for the individual) only needing to adjust the coupling set-up for different terrain.

With the changing winter environment, I'm starting to think this is the best thing I have done to my Pro.
Saved me money too 'cause I don't have to buy an Axys lol.

Soo what do you think is up with my sled and what should i do?

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[LakeEffect]

I have the Carl's setup in my 14 pro.

All kashima float 3s, evols up front and in the RTS.


60lbs / 110lbs 10 clicks out

FTS: 50lbs

RTS:
450 miles with: 105lbs / 155lbs (Carl's recommendation)
300 miles with: 135lbs / 160lbs (still too soft I think)


In the powder the sled handles exactly how I want it to, but on the trail or jumping I find it is way too soft with excessive sag in the back end.

I am 210-220 with gear on. I wish it was a little better on the trail and jumping but I don't want to sacrifice powder riding so I haven't changed it. I have about 750 miles on the setup as is.

If anyone has a suggestion I would be open to it as well.

 

[mountainhorse]

IMO... just my 2 cents.

The Suspensions these days are very specialized... if you are looking for excellent trail manners AND excellent off trail as well as hucking and other extreme stuff... I think you are asking a lot.

It's not necessarily the shocks but rather the design... which is why the mountain sleds have a simple design...light and not to costly to produce (who wants a $16k sled).... Have a look at current trail and mountian sleds... and you will see just how differently they have evolved.

The Switchback assault sleds have the older torsion spring design...not to "cheap out"... but because that design gives better on trail performance and decent deep snow performance... more of a "swiss army knife" of a design.

NOW...With that all said...an adjustable high end shock like the Raptor, EXIT, Fox, ELKA will give you better adjustablility and allow you to adapt for changes in your riding...but, to get the most out of those shocks, you will need to take the time to learn how to use them and be active in your management of them.

I've had some good conversations with the engineers/builders of all of the shocks mentioned above and all agreed that, with the super adjustable shocks, the user can make the shock LESS "good" very easily... and defeat the upgrade all together.

For example...on a FLOAT EVOL RC2 ... you have two air pressures... a high speed compression, low speed compression and rebound settings to adjust... a very capable tool in the right hands... but you will need to LEARN how to use them... and that takes more time than most people want to put into their shocks.... The QS3 shocks are a good step in the right direction...I've been talking with them for years about offering this option. The only caveat to this is that you have to be in the "zone" with valving in the first place to take full advantage of this feature... if you are outside-the-box with your weight/style/aggressiveness... this will take some trial and error time spent getting yourself dialed in with valving. For you people... the RC2 is a better choice than the QS3 as it give you more adjustment range outside of the base valving in the shock.

For most people... having a high quality shock, with good valving and a compression adjuster... or "R" bypass adjuster is the best way to go.


My 2 cents...FWIW


.

 

[mountainhorse]

And NONE of this will matter if you don't maintain your suspension... I "harp" on this topic a lot...because I've seen how this has helped a LOT of our readers.

If your skid has a season or 5 on it... and you have infrequently/never greased it or used thick trailer/equipment grease on it... and not pulled it apart and cleaned all the shafts and bores... don't expect it to perform well. If your skid has "mucked" up grease in it.. and the aluminum has worn down... all the pumping of grease in the world is not going to flush that gunk out... you will need to pull your skid and do it right... For the 5% of people out there that are reading this that DO in fact grease regularly... This really wont apply to you much... but a couple of seasons, IMO, is a good time for a complete service of the skid, out of the sled.

Grease it every two rides with good low temp grease that is not too thick (I like the CV2... but there area plenty of others out there)

If you have more than 500 aggressive miles on your stock shocks... your fluid is probably shot and you would greatly benefit from a full service... and fluid change to full synth fluid... like Raptor or Amsoil "Shock Therapy"... There are better valving options out there as well that will give you more consistent performance.


.

 

[boondocker97]

Get your fronts shortened to where they are supposed to be. Then get your ride heights set where they are supposed to be. If you are still experiencing excessive bottoming in the rear of the skid then increase your Evol air chamber pressure. This shouldn't affect the ride height unless you are running the main and Evol pressures close together (which almost defeats the purpose of having it). Don't be afraid to increase the Evol pressure substantially from where you have it and try it.

 

[ullose272]

I have the Carl's setup in my 14 pro.

All kashima float 3s, evols up front and in the RTS.


60lbs / 110lbs 10 clicks out

FTS: 50lbs

RTS:
450 miles with: 105lbs / 155lbs (Carl's recommendation)
300 miles with: 135lbs / 160lbs (still too soft I think)


In the powder the sled handles exactly how I want it to, but on the trail or jumping I find it is way too soft with excessive sag in the back end.

I am 210-220 with gear on. I wish it was a little better on the trail and jumping but I don't want to sacrifice powder riding so I haven't changed it. I have about 750 miles on the setup as is.

If anyone has a suggestion I would be open to it as well.

What is your rebound on the rts? I think im only 3-4 clicks in from full out. And i think it helped. Im excited for this early snow. Maybe i can get some tuning in


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