Supercharged or Turbo????

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

I am considering picking up a boosted sled for this season.
From what I can tell it is 50/50 here on SW for either a Apex vs a Nytro.
I won't consider a CAT because, I hate CAT. Beyond that, I constantly hear that there is a ton of maintenance/tinkering with turbo'd two stroke/efi sleds..
Curious, if I could hear from sledders that have had any of the aforementioned sleds and get their feedback for overall performance, pro-cons, feel in the trees.
I am not a shoot rider, more powder hound and tree rider.
Dan

 

[mkhoskins]

boosted nytro

I am in the same position as you, I had an m1000 and hated the power so I am in the proccess of buying a tnytro. I have studied and asked everyone and all kinds of opinions. I have ridden only the nytro, but from what I have gathered its all about a the type of turbo set up and what has been done to the sled, maitanence free turboed sled you should get an impulse or mcx, you can get more power from a tapex but the nytro pretty much what you should use if you like to boondock and trees. hope this helps.

 

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

MTX?

I am in the same position as you, I had an m1000 and hated the power so I am in the proccess of buying a tnytro. I have studied and asked everyone and all kinds of opinions. I have ridden only the nytro, but from what I have gathered its all about a the type of turbo set up and what has been done to the sled, maitanence free turboed sled you should get an impulse or mcx, you can get more power from a tapex but the nytro pretty much what you should use if you like to boondock and trees. hope this helps.

There are some good deals out there right now. On Turbo'd Apex's, Supercharged Apex's and MTX Supercharged Nytros. I had heard that there is more "usable" power with the Turbo's vs the Supercharged machines.
Thanks for the heads up.
Dan

 

[mkhoskins]

I have heard a lot, but the one thing I have heard the most is that the supercharger wont come close to the turbo, so stay away. spend the money had get a turbo.

 

[Prairie Dog]

Search it on here and there's probly a hundred threads on this topic. Biggest factor is your riding style and how much money you want to spend. Jumping and tree riding will be easier on a Nytro. If all you're into is climbing then get an Apex that is done to the nutz. Not to say a Nytro can't climb cause they do.

I had a stock Nytro then an MCX Apex and now an Alpine Nytro. I'll never go back to an Apex but thats because the Nytro fits my riding style better.

As for supers vs turbos......I've never been on a supercharged sled but I've ridden with them and they had nothing but problems. And I think it's safe to say its a common consensus around here that a turbo will out climb a supercharger any day running boost for boost. I never considered a supercharger and there is a dealer here in my home town. I went two provinces away and went with Alpine and could not have been happier.

 

[tranquillicer]

Interesting

This will be my fourth season on my Nytro. 3 of them with boost. If your worried about which system makes the most power, don't. Any of these systems will make more power than most owners will ever make use of. They all will require a bit more maintenance because there is just more stuff there than without boost. As far as which sled, IMO I would never buy an Apex because I think the Nytro is heavy enough to throw around. I've been a "rider forward" guy since the Rev in '03 and I won't change now. If you are a powder hound and a tree ridin guy then you may have already mentioned what I think is the best sled for that purpose,but you also mentioned you can't stand them. For sure the 2 stroke is not as gas and go as the 4s is but if you have the chance to ride a Tnytro in the tree's for a while and then switch to an M8 perhaps, I think you'll be surprised at how much fun they really are and how incredibly easy they are to handle. I swore I would never own a Cat or a Polaris but wound up with an M8 inspite of that. Now if I could just figure out how to get them both up the hill at the same time?????
My good friend and riding buddy is boosting his M8 this year so I guess I will see first hand how they stack-up against the 4s.
Never say "never", but if it's a 4stroke with boost it's Nytro for me. Either way, once you have boost you'll never go back.

 

[TurboT]

Turbochargers and superchargers are both great, both having their pros & cons, but in all truth your best bang for the buck would definitely be a turbo setup. The performance of a turbocharged system is unbeatable in my opinion. I've been boosted for 3000 miles now and have dealt with only small issues; pinched boost readout line, fouled plugs, etc. Nothing major. Your best friend once you go boosted will be your knowledge/and or a very good mechanics knowledge of boosted systems. Rear mount systems are a hoot, but front or midmount setups will keep the lag down. Big difference! I've rode tnytro's(rear, mid mounts) and tapex's(front, mid mounts), and I prefer the tapex. Being a bigger guy it suits me better! Tnytro's are awesome too. Just like the guys above stated before, it depends on what type of rider you are, your size, and what you like to do. Hopefully you have some friends or a dealer and you can test ride each one. There will be quite a few tapex's for sale in the near future now that the apex is no longer available and Yamaha is working on a new and improved sled. Yamaha engineers just came off the Snowies 2 weeks ago and are probing different ideas. Time will tell

 

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

Tree riding, boondocking

Thank you for the feedback. Turbo seems to be the ticket vs supercharged sleds. For my style of riding, it appears that the Nytro would be the sled of choice. I have seen some great running Turbo'd 800 Cats. Just have had helacious BS with Cats.

 

[zebiraross]

Turbo's will wax the floor with s/c sleds. If you ever got a s/c, the first time you run it by a turbo you would be very dispointed. I love the Apex, some love the Nytro.

 

[TurboT]

They all make great machines. It's always a blast to ride with other brands and see where each sled stands out different/better than the others. If you get a chance I would definitely go with the impulse turbo kit. Little pricier but worth it!!! Their standalone fuel system is the ticket. No more messing with fuel #'s. My setup is a little older so if I ride one day @ 10,000 feet and then ride the next day @ 7,500 feet I have to input a different fuel map. Kind of a pain in the arsss.

 

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

How does the T-yamaha's power compare to Tcat's?

Curious what the HP differences are? Certain that power/weight ratio would be more favorable with the CAT. Just have heard and seen first hand issues with reliability and tinkering with the 2-strokes. Getting better from what I have seen though

 

[YETIms]

turbo hp are more effective then supercharger hp.
that is a basic for all automotive engineers.

both have a lot of pro and con's

 

[zebiraross]

Curious what the HP differences are? Certain that power/weight ratio would be more favorable with the CAT. Just have heard and seen first hand issues with reliability and tinkering with the 2-strokes. Getting better from what I have seen though

The M1000 or 1200 make great power and if set up right will run with a lot of 4 strokes if not better boost for boost in the 10-18 psi range. Which is where 90% or people run. In the upper boost levels the 4 strokes REALLY start to strech their legs if your talking about max power. The tm8 will not make the power or climb like the tm1000 or 4 stroke especially when it comes to deep powder. Now if you have a 4 stroke with a 174 m10 running helthy boost no 2stroke will come close to it in deep powder. When running healthy boost in the steep and deep, suspension set up is just as important as the hp.

t2strokes have become way more reliable inthe past 2 years then in the past. BUT they still have more issues then the 4 strokes particularly the t1200 is less forgivable then the 1000 when it comes to the motor holding together, and any cat will have issues with the diamond drive. I've seen MANY cats pulled off the hill with issues regarding diamond drives. And guess which sled is usually towing it? 4 stoke...

 

[twsandrew]

Ahem... I think I saw a 4 stroke or 2 get towed out by a couple of 2 strokes this year.

SweetXP come ride with us next year. We have them all and you can see what you like. Suspension and track is really critical as Zeb mentioned.

Pls don't buy a supercharged sled or you will be really unhappy once you ride with or ride on a turbo sled. I still remember the day I got my first M7 turbo and this guy in our group who had been the fastest by miles on his MPI stage II Apex. Well the first race he immediately started saying that his sled was not running well and he has since bought 3 turbos. For the money I woud rather ride a really good running stocker over a SC sled when you consider the cost, maintenance and reliability.

Given what I know now for my first turbo sled I would buy a TM8 or a Nytro. Both can be had used with a kit already on them with low miles for way cheap. Remember that if you run decent boost track and suspension will be your limiting factor on any boosted sled.

Come ride with us and you can see what you want. Be ready to spend way too much money as the only habit I can find more expensive than turbo sleds is racing cars at Miller

 

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

That's the dilemma....No replacement for displacement

Ahem... I think I saw a 4 stroke or 2 get towed out by a couple of 2 strokes this year.

SweetXP come ride with us next year. We have them all and you can see what you like. Suspension and track is really critical as Zeb mentioned.

Pls don't buy a supercharged sled or you will be really unhappy once you ride with or ride on a turbo sled. I still remember the day I got my first M7 turbo and this guy in our group who had been the fastest by miles on his MPI stage II Apex. Well the first race he immediately started saying that his sled was not running well and he has since bought 3 turbos. For the money I woud rather ride a really good running stocker over a SC sled when you consider the cost, maintenance and reliability.

Given what I know now for my first turbo sled I would buy a TM8 or a Nytro. Both can be had used with a kit already on them with low miles for way cheap. Remember that if you run decent boost track and suspension will be your limiting factor on any boosted sled.

Come ride with us and you can see what you want. Be ready to spend way too much money as the only habit I can find more expensive than turbo sleds is racing cars at Miller

I will take you up on that offer. Thanks man. From the sounds of it, we have the same disease!!! So, sounds like the SC sleds are out fo sho! I had a nightmare of a time with my first m1000. Most of it is because of who I bought it from (no longer a AC dealer). Have had some great running xp's. TIME FOR BOOST though! Got a few guys up here in Layton with tAPEX. But, I like boondocking/tree riding, so I think Nytro will be the ticket. Any leads and insight or pitfalls to avoid would be appreciated.
D

 

[mtnperf]

There are plenty of good options out there. We, at MPI, believe that the supercharger has the best all around blend of features. Pound of boost per pound of boost the supercharger makes as much power as any of the turbos. There are a few poorly designed turbo systems that make less horsepower per pound of boost than the supercharger but I don’t want to name names. The Impulse turbo is one of the best designed and manufactured options out there. If you decide to buy a turbo over our supercharger look hard at the impulse.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o> </o>
A lot of people seem to think that the turbos have “longer legs”. This isn’t the case. But here are a couple of common issues that exist. 1) A lot of turbos tend to increase boost at the end of a long pull (this happens when the waist gate isn’t keeping up). So, if the boost increases clearly you’re going to pull harder. 2) Since the Supercharger has so much bottom end, its common to have your top end rpm fall off on a long pull due to improper clutching. Make sure and don’t run too big of a helix and keep the primary’s weights tip weight down. Next time you’re in a position to measure the Supercharger against the turbo, make sure the super’s RPM is not falling off, also make super the turbo isn’t boost creeping. YOU WILL BE HAPPY TO SEE WITH ALL THINGS EQUAL THAT THE sUPERcHARGER is pulling every bit as hard.
<o> </o>
We don’t sell the off the shelf kits for more than 20 pounds. We just don’t think this counts as “bolt on”. See one of the première motor builders if you want build big supercharged horsepower. Dave at Hurricane is an example of a guy that can build the motor to handle 20+ psi of supercharged boost.
<o> </o>
Our kits pass Yamaha OE durability tests (the same one that they put the stock sleds through). I don’t think the others have these bragging rights. We offer a 2 year warranty. We have stand-a-lone fuel controllers (optional). We have the rest of the parts you need to complete your install. The Yamaha 180HP kit and the MPI stage 1 don’t require motor mods. We recommend things like Tunnel Coolers, Rods, Pistons, Head Studs, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on">CAM</st1lace> timing adjustments for some of the Stage 2 supercharger kits (and above stage 2). We design and test (and in a lot of the cases) manufacture this accessorial products. We don’t believe in selling you ½ a solution. We have custom rods, pistons, head studs and cam gears built exclusively to our specs. We prefer that you don’t run to one shop and buy boost another for motor parts and some others for cooling and so on. This just leads to a lot of finger pointing.
<o> </o>
Our 2010 kits include Billet Bypass/Blow-off valves at no additional charge. 2010 nytro kits also include a free cold air kit. Some of our other kits are being reconfigured to include other parts like fuel pumps on stage 2 kits. Yes, the price is going up a bit on some of those. We will be offering some motor packages as well. Some of the bigger kits will have a “tuner” option that doesn’t include any of the extras; you add your own fuel control, air in, and so on. The just the mechanical supercharger / intercooler setups.
<o> </o>
Watch for our new <st1lace w:st="on">CAM</st1lace> timing package. We found a combination that works better than OE; it produces more power and has improved motor durability. Some folks probably have played with this, but without custom timing gears, it takes a great motor shop to set it up. Our custom cam gears make this bolt-on!
<o> </o>
Give us a call at 888-649-4609 <st1lace w:st="on"><st1laceName w:st="on">M-F</st1laceName> <st1laceName w:st="on">9-5</st1laceName> <st1laceType w:st="on">Mountain</st1laceType></st1lace> time. We try and answer PMs and Forum questions, but our 1<SUP>st</SUP> commitment is to the customers and potential customers phoning in.
<o> </o>
Thanks,
Mac & the staff at MPI

 

[zebiraross]

There are plenty of good options out there. We, at MPI, believe that the supercharger has the best all around blend of features. Pound of boost per pound of boost the supercharger makes as much power as any of the turbos. There are a few poorly designed turbo systems that make less horsepower per pound of boost than the supercharger but I don’t want to name names. The Impulse turbo is one of the best designed and manufactured options out there. If you decide to buy a turbo over our supercharger look hard at the impulse.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o> </o>
A lot of people seem to think that the turbos have “longer legs”. This isn’t the case. But here are a couple of common issues that exist. 1) A lot of turbos tend to increase boost at the end of a long pull (this happens when the waist gate isn’t keeping up). So, if the boost increases clearly you’re going to pull harder. 2) Since the Supercharger has so much bottom end, its common to have your top end rpm fall off on a long pull due to improper clutching. Make sure and don’t run too big of a helix and keep the primary’s weights tip weight down. Next time you’re in a position to measure the Supercharger against the turbo, make sure the super’s RPM is not falling off, also make super the turbo isn’t boost creeping. YOU WILL BE HAPPY TO SEE WITH ALL THINGS EQUAL THAT THE sUPERcHARGER is pulling every bit as hard.
<o> </o>
We don’t sell the off the shelf kits for more than 20 pounds. We just don’t think this counts as “bolt on”. See one of the première motor builders if you want build big supercharged horsepower. Dave at Hurricane is an example of a guy that can build the motor to handle 20+ psi of supercharged boost.
<o> </o>
Our kits pass Yamaha OE durability tests (the same one that they put the stock sleds through). I don’t think the others have these bragging rights. We offer a 2 year warranty. We have stand-a-lone fuel controllers (optional). We have the rest of the parts you need to complete your install. The Yamaha 180HP kit and the MPI stage 1 don’t require motor mods. We recommend things like Tunnel Coolers, Rods, Pistons, Head Studs, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on">CAM</st1lace> timing adjustments for some of the Stage 2 supercharger kits (and above stage 2). We design and test (and in a lot of the cases) manufacture this accessorial products. We don’t believe in selling you ½ a solution. We have custom rods, pistons, head studs and cam gears built exclusively to our specs. We prefer that you don’t run to one shop and buy boost another for motor parts and some others for cooling and so on. This just leads to a lot of finger pointing.
<o> </o>
Our 2010 kits include Billet Bypass/Blow-off valves at no additional charge. 2010 nytro kits also include a free cold air kit. Some of our other kits are being reconfigured to include other parts like fuel pumps on stage 2 kits. Yes, the price is going up a bit on some of those. We will be offering some motor packages as well. Some of the bigger kits will have a “tuner” option that doesn’t include any of the extras; you add your own fuel control, air in, and so on. The just the mechanical supercharger / intercooler setups.
<o> </o>
Watch for our new <st1lace w:st="on">CAM</st1lace> timing package. We found a combination that works better than OE; it produces more power and has improved motor durability. Some folks probably have played with this, but without custom timing gears, it takes a great motor shop to set it up. Our custom cam gears make this bolt-on!
<o> </o>
Give us a call at 888-649-4609 <st1lace w:st="on"><st1laceName w:st="on">M-F</st1laceName> <st1laceName w:st="on">9-5</st1laceName> <st1laceType w:st="on">Mountain</st1laceType></st1lace> time. We try and answer PMs and Forum questions, but our 1<SUP>st</SUP> commitment is to the customers and potential customers phoning in.
<o> </o>
Thanks,
Mac & the staff at MPI

I'll show you why turbo's make more power then a supercharger. So just looking at some rotrex compressor maps. I assume the stage 2 kit is the c15-60? Please correct me if I'm wrong. We'll go best case scenario for the s/c that your at sea level with a pressure ratio of 14.7. The compressor map reads .20 kg/sec which is about 27 lb/min. In layman terms is about 270 hp. That is pushing the compressor to it's max at only 60% effeciency and at that point blowing a lot of hot air, so unless you are running really good gas and have a really good intercooler your still on the ragged edge of detonation . If you go to where the compressor is semi-decent in effeciencey (69%) your at 18 kg/sec which is about 24 lb/min (240 hp).


Now if we look at a gt2871, a common turbo used on 4 stroke's or what would be considered a stage II as far as turbo's go. We see some big differences. This turbo flows 45 lb/min (450 hp) maxed out. I'll say the same thing about a turbo as I did the s/c, when they are maxed out they are blowing a lot of hot air and not effecient. But if you look at where it's 69% effecient it's still flowing 37 lb/min.

In other words a stage 2 s/c at 69% effeciency is 240 hp where a "stage 2" turbo is at 370 hp at the same 69% effeciency. Again this is at sea level elevation, and if I go into a 10.2 p/r for high elevation at say 10K ft it makes the supercharger even look worse in this comparison. So yes, the turbo has longer legs then a s/c because at the same psi of boost the turbo is pushing more lb/min, kg/sec, cfm, or whatever you want to lable it. More effecient air boost for boost. Even just comparing just turbo's if you take a gt25 at 15 psi and put it up against a 2871 at 15 psi the 2871 will spank it because of what I just explained. Boost is not equal, you have to take compressor maps and elevation into consideration.

If we want to compare the stage III kit with the c38 I've looked at that compressor map too and can compare it to a stage III turbo like a 3071 or even worse a 3076 and show the same things I just did in the above comparison.

Sorry, I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, just pointing out some facts.

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

exactly.... just because boost is equal, doesnt mean HP is equal...

and zeb, your just comparing the compressor maps, not the power lost due to driving the SC vs the turbo..

Dont get me wrong, I really like the supercharged sled I rode around, it comes out of the hole like a SOB.. and does great on the top, BUT, similar boosted turbos will walk away.. not terrible, but its just numbers.... thats how it works.

 

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

Still a bit confused, getting clearer though

So,
Sounds like Turbo'd nytro, extended track and updated suspension will be the goal for this season. No to Apex and SC Apex or Nytro
Thanks again

 

[mtnperf]

I really don’t want to start any fight on the matter, but I do need to point out some errors that are going around in this thread.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o> </o>
Stage 1 kits use the C15-60. Stage 2 uses the C30-74 compressor and the Stage 3 uses the C30-94 compressor.
<o> </o>
The C15-60 stage 1 at 15 PSI at sea-level shows 276HP on independent dynos and also our dyno.
<o> </o>
The C30-74 Stage 2 at 24 PSI sea-level showed 360HP again on both independent and MPI dyno.
<o> </o>
What was being said about efficiencies is true, but is very hard to compare the efficiency of a turbo vs a supercharger. The first thing is that a turbo has two efficiencies that must be multiplied together. The efficiency of the Hot side AND the efficiency of the compressor. SO just for argument, assume 70% for both sides of the turbo. 0.70 x 0.70 = 0.49 or 49%. While the supercharger remains at 70%, but the supercharger has mechanical loss. Again just really hard to compare the 2. The HONEST way to test is to boost both test subjects to an equal pressure and measure the output horsepower.
<o> </o>
To clarify pressure ratio (PR): Any compressor (supercharger or turbocharger) makes boost based on pressure ratio; so a pressure ration of 2 doubles the current atmospheric pressure. At sea-level the typical pressure is 14.7psi so a pressure ratio of 2 would yield 14.7 PSI of boost (or 29.4 total pressure, atmospheric + boost). A Pressure ratio of 3 yields 14.7 + 14.7 + 14.7 or 44.1 total pressure or 29.4 PSI of boost (atmospheric + 29.4 boost). Here’s where we all suffer at high altitude: the atmospheric pressure is more like 10 PSI so the came turbo or super making 14.7 PSI boost at sea level only makes 10 psi at high altitude. Pressure ratio (the way centrifugal compressors work) simply multiply atmospheric pressure. At sea-level to make 15 psi of boost we run a PR of 2.0 and 10,000ft to make 15 psi of boost we run a PR of 2.5. Again same for turbo and supercharger.
<o> </o>
Again, as I mentioned in an earlier post that the supercharger is often overclutched and rpm (so also the boost) fell off on the top end because people tended to over clutch due to enormous bottom end of the supercharger. Also the turbo’s waist gates don’t always keep up on long pulls. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS on the motor. If the motor is designed to handle 20PSI and your turbo overboosts to 23psi, this is bad!. And please remember the air is almost always hotter coming out of a turbo because the compressor is very very hot, you could never touch a turbo compressor. You can always lay your hand the the compressor of the supercharger. The cooler the air the higher the efficiency of the motor and the more horsepower. Turbos win a little on the mechanical lost by the supercharger (but remember that the exhaust backpressure and the turbine efficiency of a turbo is something the super doesn’t have against it). The supercharger wins a little because the compressor temp is so much lower. Again the proof is in the dyno: the HONEST way to test is to boost both test subjects to an equal pressure and measure the output horsepower.
<o> </o>
Lots of great product out there in the form of turbo kits, but please remember everything has good and bad points. THERE IS NO NIGHT AND DAY HERE. Please notice I’ve gone until the thread end to point out how much better the response and bottom end of the supercharge is due to instant boost.
<o> </o>
<o> </o>
Thanks again,
Mac
<o> </o>
Please feel free to call any time. 888-649-4609.
<o> </o>