Standalone Fuel Injection for Turbo's?

[JKP]

We were kicking this aound the other day. If you had a separate fuel injection system that would piggyback onto a carbed motor you could tune the boosted fuel separately. This would be similar to what Boondocker does for the M Turbos.

You would need a separate fuel pump, injectors and ECU but it would be pretty cool. This would in theory allow for much more precise fuel control under boost and reliability should be as good any other turbo EFI two stroke.

Apparently this type of system exists in the automotive world. Anybody working on one or any ideas?

thanks,

John

 

[Skid Performance]

You have some very good thoughts, and would work to perfection if you could get in touch with the right people.

 

[bigtoyz]

MoTec is the standalone system can tune for about anything. Little spendy for a sled though. But look at it this way you have control of the spark map also.

Patrick

 

[badass1000]

their are lots of different piggy back systems you could use. (microtech mt4) they couldn't change the fuel delivery enough for the verying altitude and temp changes. You would have to change it yourself.
With the right sensors and programming a motec could to it. but a $7,000 or so standalone is no good if you don't know how to program it or atleast have a base map to start off with.

Two extra injectors controled by a dobeck (pure logic) box with a one-one regulator could work good on a carbed sled. And yes it would need a seperate high pressure fuel pump for the injectors.

 

[fastgas]

Two extra injectors controled by a dobeck (pure logic) box with a one-one regulator could work good on a carbed sled. And yes it would need a seperate high pressure fuel pump for the injectors.

This has been considered, but it is a little involved to set up. You will need a higher pressure fuel pump (and a DC supply to run it), fuel regulator, injectors and a place to mount them. However you will still have all the disadvantages of having carburetors - boost pressures will push fuel out the float bowls causing the same fuel delivery issues and inconsistencies carbed turbos have (I've heard Brad Story say he will never again turbo anything that has a float bowl). And since carburetors are going away it's hard to justify spending on R&D for a product that will fade away...

 

[badass1000]

I was just thinking of the fuel being supplied for the turbo. Wasn't thinking of the issues with carbs. Sounded like a good idea.
I have never owned any thing turbod that had carbs. I would never turbo any thing with carbs.
Matter of fact I swore I would never own anything with carbs again. Wish this damn xp did not have carbs. My cat started first pull always. The xp is a little hard to start some times. Nothing like getting all wore out digging and rolling your sled out of a hole only to pull the rope 5-10 times trying to start it.

 

[Cyemm]

If going fuel injection, why on earth

would you keep the carbs? Go full EFI.

Megasquirt makes reasonable standalone fuel processors...

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

Now all you need is a throttle body and injectors, a fuel rail and a few sensors, and dyno time.


The reason for piggyback/dual injectors in the bike/car world is fuel delivery. If you make an injector big enough to supply all the fuel at full throttle, it'll run poorly at low pressures/short pulse widths. Using two allows one to work at low rpm, and the second kicks in at wot.

 

[mattymac]

This has been considered, but it is a little involved to set up. You will need a higher pressure fuel pump (and a DC supply to run it), fuel regulator, injectors and a place to mount them. However you will still have all the disadvantages of having carburetors - boost pressures will push fuel out the float bowls causing the same fuel delivery issues and inconsistencies carbed turbos have (I've heard Brad Story say he will never again turbo anything that has a float bowl). And since carburetors are going away it's hard to justify spending on R&D for a product that will fade away...

To each his own, but the funny thing is all these people keep saying that they wont turbo a carbed sled but there are a TON more issues with the EFI setups IMO. If a turbo carbed two stroke doesnt run its because of operator error, if an EFI turbo wont run its because of the box, second injectors not firing, fuel pump to low of pressure/quiting/voltage/electrical problems, or they dont know which stupid program or update they have on their BD box that doesnt work, and so on!


Yeah we all know Brad can tune a turbo sled and he really knows whats going on but the masses are having probs with the EFI turbos. They are coming around since the right people are finding sulotions to the issues, other than send in your box and well fix it.

 

[doors4u]

So how is your little turbo kitty runnig Matty?

 

[mattymac]

So how is your little turbo kitty runnig Matty?

Great! Found an issue with the motor that was there before the install that turned out bad but its fine now, the only problem is I need to run it aginst the 1200 and soon to be un-naturally asperated apex! Should be a good comparison between the three!

 

[bigtoyz]

MoTec the last I knew was 2000-2500 bucks.....was looking at it for my car.


Patrick

 

[Summit Guy]

To each his own, but the funny thing is all these people keep saying that they wont turbo a carbed sled but there are a TON more issues with the EFI setups IMO. If a turbo carbed two stroke doesnt run its because of operator error, if an EFI turbo wont run its because of the box, second injectors not firing, fuel pump to low of pressure/quiting/voltage/electrical problems, or they dont know which stupid program or update they have on their BD box that doesnt work, and so on!


Yeah we all know Brad can tune a turbo sled and he really knows whats going on but the masses are having probs with the EFI turbos. They are coming around since the right people are finding sulotions to the issues, other than send in your box and well fix it.

I agree with the turbo carb issue, I have very little tuning once setup with carbs, it seems the EFI guys are always adjusting the box.

Sorry to hijack so back to topic Turboguy 800 has megasquirt on a doo 800, maybe he will chime in.

 

[astro]

I ran a Motec M4 on a Polaris turbo. If you are going to do this get rid of the carbs. If you want easy tuning this is the way to go. Just plug in your laptop and you can adjust just about anything. If you need any Motec stuff my brother is a dealer.

 

[FreeRide Films]

Filming

FreeRide Films is headed out west on feb 25th for a 2 week trip, We are going to Colorado for 4-5 days and then we are looking for people to meet up with and film anywhere out west.

If you have a performance shop and need some free exposure- we'll come film your shop. Then we can head out into the backcountry and you can show us what your products can do. We would love to meet some mod/turbo guys to film with and promote your products.

E-mail me at tagracer@hotmail.com or give me a ring 320-420-1351 (Tony) Tell me about you or the group you ride with… Hopefully it works out and we can come out and do some filming!!

 

[badass1000]

A base motec m400 starts at $2,000 or so. **** starts adding up fast when you get extra and special sensors. Extra options added on.
I just know what I know from turbo street/drag bikes. A pre wired harness for all sensors can be $1,000-$1,500. Having anti lag, traction contol, time based rpm gain (a form of traction control) and other special tricks programmed into the motec can really add up. Stand alone is only as good as the person who programs it. All the bells and whistles from one of the top builders for turbo street/drag bikes can cost $6,000.
A magnetti merellie (however the heck you spell it) full standalone from velocity raceing is $7,500.

 

[Hatcher]

This is exactly what I want to do, fuel inject my 05 Rev. The problem is the motec system, its 2,500 just for the brain, they don't make you the harness. then you have to make a throttle body? how are you going to do that?? fuel pump, etc. you have to do that all yourself, second, I am willing to bet the farm that ECU is NOT waterproof. So that won't do. I figure it would cost around 7K. Its just not worth it. I will wait for Doo to do it. I found another company that does the same thing as motec and the same problem, they are not weathproof computers.

 

[bigtoyz]

For the little machanically inclinded and sat down and though out a plan it would not be hard to do that yourself for the wire loom. What do you think throttle bodies are? Carbs with TPS on it Just something to control air coming it with a butterfly is all you need. And TPS tells the computer how open the TB is. It is not all that hard to rig up a standalone on one of these guys. Come on it's only fuel injection. O2 sensor wide band comes with piggy. MAP sensor make a pigtail for that. EGT has a pigtail. TPS has one also and willing that Doo's carb has one, Pol has had them for years on on the carb models. Would think that the MoTech would have harness for injector at least. Lets see what else can you use on it. I'm sure that it has built in NOS. But the things you need are TPS, O2, MAP to run closed loop system it is not rocket science for gods sake. My 900hp supercharged car that is EFI only uses them three to run the motor. MAP gives it the load so that you have a 3-D fuel and spark Curve. I can hear it now also. Getting the coils plugged into the system is not going to be all that hard either. Just figure it out and try it. No need to spend all that money on harnesses. 2 cylinder only has 2 singles at a 180 degrees apart and I'm sure something comes off the stator that can be reduced for a computer signal for it to use.

The motech is going to be waterproof also cause they put them under the hood of cars for location.

Patrick

 

[Hatcher]

if its that simple and easy, put it together at a reasonable price and sell it to me. thanks,.

 

[robo]

seems like alot of work and even more money to "reinvent the wheel" when a couple $20 power jets work and work well.
As for ease of tuning a boosted carbed sled, once set up and a base line established tuneing is quick and simple. I ride with a couple efi boosted sleds and I think I can tune much faster then they can. just my .02

 

[bigtoyz]

I might have to sit down and think about this....might be a good idea to invest in. I'll see what I can come up with.

Patrick