M
mannix
ACCOUNT CLOSED
A bit of resurrection, but I'm a tire junkie & figured I'd through my .02c in.
First off, I'm a HUGE fan of studded snows; they work better in more places (IMHO).
I've used the following, from memory:
Blizzak WS50
Yokohama Guardex ("studless technology" tire)
Michelin X-Ice (another "studless" tire)
Toyo's studless wonder-rubber tire (forget the name)
Gislaved studs (not sure on model)
Vredstein studs (ditto)
Nokia Hakkapelitta 10s (both studded and without studs)
BFG All Terrain T/A
Kumho Road Venture A/T (van, E-rated tire)
Hankook WS404 studded
Hankook ??? studded - newer/replaced the 404
Cooper load range E studded tires - Discoverer MS? On the van.
Variety of vehicles - AWD Audis, various VWs, Subaru WRX, RWD BMWs, Ford E350 van, Jeep CJ5 (the BFG All Terrain T/A).
I like studded tires the best, hands down.
Studless tires (Blizzak, Guardex, X-Ice, etc) are downright impressive on SMOOTH ICE. Really smooth; most of the "tests" to demonstrate how awesome they are take place on hockey rinks.
The ONLY place I've seen that kind of smooth, polished ice on the street is at stoplights. Adjust accordingly, things are good.
I once went to a Jeep club ice "race" in my clapped out Audi 4000 quattro. They run a dogbone shaped course, two vehicles at a time, one on each side of the course, driving the same direction - so at the start, your opponent is on the other side, facing the "other" direction. One lap, whoever crosses their own finish line first wins.
In the morning, during practice, the ice was bumpy and crusty and there were small snowdrifts on the driving line. I was catching the Jeep guys before my own start line - HUGE advantage. I was on Nokia Hakka 10s, without studs.
By the time to "race," the ice had been polished SMOOTH. I was in the "special rubber" class - Blizzaks, Guardex, Nokia - not really "fair," as a Nokia H-10 is not "special" like a Blizzak - but it is a whole lot more "special" than a Super Swamper, so it made sense. The fast cars in that class (cars, jeeps, whatever) were on tiny Blizzaks with 10psi in them - the Nokias just spun on the polished ice; I could barely make the car move. I could dump the clutch at idle in 2nd gear with the center and rear diff locked; three out of four wheels agreed - NO GRIP. It'd just clunk and sit there, spinning the tires slowly. Weird.
Anyway - smooth, polished ice, a studless tire is probably better than a studded tire (normal studs), although I've never had trouble accelerating with studs on anything, so who knows.
We bought the Blizzaks a number of years ago to go compete at an Audi club time trial at the Bridgestone Ice Driving School, when the school was off Mt Werner Road at Steamboat - 99? A while ago. They did not allow studs, we wanted to go beat up on a bunch of turbo Audis with an 81 VW Scirocco. We did
. It was fun, and I learned to love - and hate - those tires.
They have ZERO mechanical grip. Once they start spinning or start sliding, they have NOTHING. On corner entry, the KEY to going fast was getting the car turned in - induce huge oversteer, get the car to rotate, knowing that balancing the car (reducing front grip) was EASY. Too easy; I started using piles of snow to turn the car. It worked, but wow, I wished I had studs.
They're not BAD, mind you - they're shockingly good, really. That said, I much prefer studs - they do arguably give up something on polished ice, but IMHO, they work better _everywhere_ else, and if the car DOES start sliding, a studded tire will have some mechanical grip to work with.
So, there's my .02c. Blizzaks et al are very good - not a bad choice, even - but if your state allows it, IMHO, you're better off with a good studded tire.
I just got a new set of Cooper Discoverer (discovery?) M&S for the van; went to Jones Pass over the weekend, drove them in snow - they seem great.
For a load-range-E tire, the Cooper is pretty much the only game in town (studded). The Kumho Road Venture A/T is also very good - I had mine on for 2 seasons of skiing/towing/etc, and I kept them for next summer; they're pretty awesome in snow, for a non-studded, non-fancy-rubber tire.
I wanted to like the fancytires, and I tried more than a few - I keep going back to a studded snow; they've just never let me down.
Iain (now, if someone would make a studdable Blizzak....or those Green Diamond tires, they're interesting, too....)
First off, I'm a HUGE fan of studded snows; they work better in more places (IMHO).
I've used the following, from memory:
Blizzak WS50
Yokohama Guardex ("studless technology" tire)
Michelin X-Ice (another "studless" tire)
Toyo's studless wonder-rubber tire (forget the name)
Gislaved studs (not sure on model)
Vredstein studs (ditto)
Nokia Hakkapelitta 10s (both studded and without studs)
BFG All Terrain T/A
Kumho Road Venture A/T (van, E-rated tire)
Hankook WS404 studded
Hankook ??? studded - newer/replaced the 404
Cooper load range E studded tires - Discoverer MS? On the van.
Variety of vehicles - AWD Audis, various VWs, Subaru WRX, RWD BMWs, Ford E350 van, Jeep CJ5 (the BFG All Terrain T/A).
I like studded tires the best, hands down.
Studless tires (Blizzak, Guardex, X-Ice, etc) are downright impressive on SMOOTH ICE. Really smooth; most of the "tests" to demonstrate how awesome they are take place on hockey rinks.
The ONLY place I've seen that kind of smooth, polished ice on the street is at stoplights. Adjust accordingly, things are good.
I once went to a Jeep club ice "race" in my clapped out Audi 4000 quattro. They run a dogbone shaped course, two vehicles at a time, one on each side of the course, driving the same direction - so at the start, your opponent is on the other side, facing the "other" direction. One lap, whoever crosses their own finish line first wins.
In the morning, during practice, the ice was bumpy and crusty and there were small snowdrifts on the driving line. I was catching the Jeep guys before my own start line - HUGE advantage. I was on Nokia Hakka 10s, without studs.
By the time to "race," the ice had been polished SMOOTH. I was in the "special rubber" class - Blizzaks, Guardex, Nokia - not really "fair," as a Nokia H-10 is not "special" like a Blizzak - but it is a whole lot more "special" than a Super Swamper, so it made sense. The fast cars in that class (cars, jeeps, whatever) were on tiny Blizzaks with 10psi in them - the Nokias just spun on the polished ice; I could barely make the car move. I could dump the clutch at idle in 2nd gear with the center and rear diff locked; three out of four wheels agreed - NO GRIP. It'd just clunk and sit there, spinning the tires slowly. Weird.
Anyway - smooth, polished ice, a studless tire is probably better than a studded tire (normal studs), although I've never had trouble accelerating with studs on anything, so who knows.
We bought the Blizzaks a number of years ago to go compete at an Audi club time trial at the Bridgestone Ice Driving School, when the school was off Mt Werner Road at Steamboat - 99? A while ago. They did not allow studs, we wanted to go beat up on a bunch of turbo Audis with an 81 VW Scirocco. We did
. It was fun, and I learned to love - and hate - those tires. They have ZERO mechanical grip. Once they start spinning or start sliding, they have NOTHING. On corner entry, the KEY to going fast was getting the car turned in - induce huge oversteer, get the car to rotate, knowing that balancing the car (reducing front grip) was EASY. Too easy; I started using piles of snow to turn the car. It worked, but wow, I wished I had studs.
They're not BAD, mind you - they're shockingly good, really. That said, I much prefer studs - they do arguably give up something on polished ice, but IMHO, they work better _everywhere_ else, and if the car DOES start sliding, a studded tire will have some mechanical grip to work with.
So, there's my .02c. Blizzaks et al are very good - not a bad choice, even - but if your state allows it, IMHO, you're better off with a good studded tire.
I just got a new set of Cooper Discoverer (discovery?) M&S for the van; went to Jones Pass over the weekend, drove them in snow - they seem great.
For a load-range-E tire, the Cooper is pretty much the only game in town (studded). The Kumho Road Venture A/T is also very good - I had mine on for 2 seasons of skiing/towing/etc, and I kept them for next summer; they're pretty awesome in snow, for a non-studded, non-fancy-rubber tire.
I wanted to like the fancytires, and I tried more than a few - I keep going back to a studded snow; they've just never let me down.
Iain (now, if someone would make a studdable Blizzak....or those Green Diamond tires, they're interesting, too....)
