Shovel and Equipment

[mtproride]

This should be an eye opening for everybody, avalanche danger is the worst its been everywhere and will continue to be this year, everybody needs to make sure there smart and have the correct gear, one hint is not to go light weight on the shovel, make sure you get one that extends out with a long handle, makes all the difference in the world. I just lost my best friend last Sat. Jan. 8 2011, we were both in the avalanche but I got out. Here is the website www.glacieravalanche.org/incidentsdetail.cfm?RECNUM=61
Make sure your equipment is up to date, ours was but if it wasnt I couldnt imagine the guilt Id have right now. Look at the area we were in, not very dangerous or so we thought.

One thing, my best friend, the greatest guy in the world, he fought for snowmobiling, dirtbiking, anything back country, the right to be out there enjoying what is ours, I can tell you right now that I feel a lot more safe out there snowmobiling than driving to town and I know he would not want me to stop, he would want me to just question myself every morning about the conditions, not just that morning but before that, what led up to that day, temps, snowfall, whatever, just dont get into my position and loose your best friend, a guy you talk to every day, hunt, fish, and of course snowmobile with. Its never going to be the same without him.

 

[jbsleds]

A Terrible Loss

I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. It is a tragedy and I'm sure that all who knew him will miss him. My condolences to family and friends.

Thank you for submitting this thread. I followed the link and read the incident report posted there by the avalanche center. The information in the report has helped me learn more about avalanche safety.

 

[cpatts2000]

I am really sorry about what happened, no one should have to go through that.
Ortovox makes a shovel called the kodiak that is really great, it has a hoe mode that moves a bunch of snow in a hurry. Again, sorry for your loss

 

[James T Kirk]

This should be an eye opening for everybody, avalanche danger is the worst its been everywhere and will continue to be this year, everybody needs to make sure there smart and have the correct gear, one hint is not to go light weight on the shovel, make sure you get one that extends out with a long handle, makes all the difference in the world. I just lost my best friend last Sat. Jan. 8 2011, we were both in the avalanche but I got out. Here is the website www.glacieravalanche.org
Make sure your equipment is up to date, ours was but if it wasnt I couldnt imagine the guilt Id have right now. Look at the area we were in, not very dangerous or so we thought.

First off, sorry for your loss. Ive been there before, and I know how much it sucks. However, I have to put forward some hard facts that I get from the incident report with the hopes that it helps save someone else.

Special avalanche warning issued the day before, 2 guys on the same hill at the same time??WTF??? 37 degree hill steepening to 45, thin trees, deep snow, the photo in the incident report looks like a prime spot to slide in those conditions, plenty dangerous. Did they not see signs of recent avalanche activity? I'm getting sick of hearing about peoples lives being shattered in such completely avoidable incidents. Why cant sledders wait a day or two for things to settle after an avy cycle? there is plenty of powder to go around, it isnt going anywhere.

I feel like I have asked this question before, but here goes: had any members of the group taken a real avalanche course (avy 1 or 2 or both, multi day with on slope training) and did any members of the group call the avy report before going out? Did anyone dig a pit and look at the snowpack?

A REALLY GOOD AVALANCHE COURSE IS MUCH MORE VALUABLE THEN A REALLY GOOD SHOVEL. Your shovels primary use should be digging snowpits and assessing the snowpack, not digging up your buddies.

Sorry to be so harsh, but this sh*t has got to stop.

 

[CatWoman]

http://www.glacieravalanche.org/incidentsdetail.cfm?RECNUM=61

 

[jbsleds]

Send the link to someone you know

Special avalanche warning issued the day before, 2 guys on the same hill at the same time??WTF??? 37 degree hill steepening to 45, thin trees, deep snow, the photo in the incident report looks like a prime spot to slide in those conditions, plenty dangerous.

A REALLY GOOD AVALANCHE COURSE IS MUCH MORE VALUABLE THEN A REALLY GOOD SHOVEL.

Yes, absolutely! Thanks for saying the things that I was thinking after I read the report.

It may seem harsh to some, but the facts tell us that this tragedy could have been avoided.

I'm really concerned about the , "that won't happen to me" or "I don't need that training", I hear when I talk about avalanche safety with some of those who I know.

I can see that we need to keep talking about it with them, even if they think we're a pain in the a$$.

If each forum member who reads this post sends the incident report link to at least one non-forum member, we just might help save a life.

 

[jbsleds]

Send the link to someone you know: Part 2

I've thought about this some more since I wrote the reply earlier this morning. The email I will send to those I know will contain some information about the incident and three requests.

1. read the report
2. learn more about avalanche safety, either on line or on site
3. forward the email to at least one other snowmobiler they know

 

[mtproride]

First of all we all know snowmobilers arent going to stay home when the powder hits if you do your a trail rider, we all know there are risks in this sport I was simply stating that you should carry the right equipment and not try to skimp for weight or something stupid like that. Things like this are going to happen, we did everything right, had the right equipment. What we did wrong that day I feel was going off of the past years of riding in this area, we, in are mind figured it to be safe, we knew the avalanche danger was high, that is why we went where we did. As for carrying a shovel for the hell of it, well thats not why I carry mine, I carry it for my friends, And hope I dont need to use it.

 

[James T Kirk]

First of all we all know snowmobilers arent going to stay home when the powder hits if you do your a trail rider, we all know there are risks in this sport I was simply stating that you should carry the right equipment and not try to skimp for weight or something stupid like that. Things like this are going to happen, we did everything right, had the right equipment. What we did wrong that day I feel was going off of the past years of riding in this area, we, in are mind figured it to be safe, we knew the avalanche danger was high, that is why we went where we did. As for carrying a shovel for the hell of it, well thats not why I carry mine, I carry it for my friends, And hope I dont need to use it.

I guess that answers my question.

Of course no one wants to stay home when "the powder hits", but when you get a lot of snow on a weak bed surface accompanied by a rapid temperature change sometimes you need to give it a day or two to settle. There is nothing to prove in avalanche terrain. Special avalanche warnings are not issued for fun, they are issued when there is a rare combination of snowpack and weather that make things especially dangerous.

Things like this are only going to happen if you ignore the obvious signs and ride in the mountains without any avalanche training. The information that is passed onto you in an avy 1 & 2 has been accumulated over generations by all types of backcountry travelers. You cant learn this in a few years of riding with your buddies.

You did everything right? Whats right about 2 guys on a hill at the same time during a period of HIGH avalanche danger?? especially without anyone spotting from a safe zone??

If you did use your shovel to dig a snow pit and spot the weakness in the snowpack, you might not have had to use it to dig out your buddy. Nobody is implying that anyone carries a shovel for the hell of it, you think anyone digs a snowpit and looks at the layers for the hell of it?? Of course it is a crucial tool in the event of a slide, but it is also a critical tool in avoiding being caught in a slide in the first place. I fully agree that it is critical to carry a full size aluminium blade shovel. If you see someone with a lexan blade shovel, tell them to get rid of it, the are junk.

I'm not saying this to rip on you. One of the real benefits of putting incidents like this on these message boards is that others can learn from this kind of tragedy. If the 15 minutes I spent writing this makes someone even consider taking their avy 1 or 2 it was worth it.

 

[EagleRiverDee]

I appreciate the OP for posting this. Perhaps the post will save a life. Let's hope. I second other people's suggestions that the avy report should be checked the day of the ride, that mountainous avy terrain should be given a day or two to settle after a large storm and that you NEVER EVER have two people on a slope at the same time.

The one thing I did notice here is that even with all the people searching and digging, it took 90 minutes to dig out the victim. That is one thing I think people underestimate is how HARD an avy sets up. It's something people need to remember. It's like digging in very hard ground. People should never feel safe because they have a beacon, probe and shovel. Those things help and are necessary, but all too often they are for body recovery, not rescue.

Use your heads, stay safe, take an avy course, and respect the mountains.

To the OP: I am so sorry you lost your best friend but perhaps you saved a life here today. God bless.

 

[mtproride]

well i dont know what to say but I feel I was just like James T kirk before this happened and now I feel different he might feel he would have done different in my position but he would not have< I put this post on here to help people think about what they are doing out there and to think twice about where they ride, if they feel safe, think twice, look at the photo, not steep, trees, not an avalanche area. Just wanted people to know that I care about every person that snowmobiles out there..

 

[MVR]

Under an avalanche rating of "high" we have practically zero room for error. In looking at the start zone slope angles in the report and looking at the photo, I would have put a high probability on this slope sliding as it did.
The thing is that I wouldn't have to see the slope so much as just know the snow pack trends from reading forecasts EVERY DAY. And compare the forecast rating to what that means on the Avalanche Danger scale. I have put this in many other post but I am doing it again so that maybe folks will start to see that it is an invaluable tool.
Under a High rating, to begin with, the forecasters/professionals/snow scientists are recommending NOT to travel in avalanche terrain. But what does a High rating actually mean? The danger scale refers to several points that are important for us to understand. First, the likelihood of an avalanche to occur...under a high rating natural avalanches are LIKELY and human caused avalanches are VERY LIKELY. The next thing it refers to is the size and distribution of the occurring avalanches...in this case, LARGE avalanches in MANY areas and VERY LARGE avalanches in SPECIFIC areas.
As we have seen before, you don't have to be the trigger on a steep slope to get involved in an avalanche, especially in a high danger rating. All you have to do is be in terrain that is connected to avalanche terrain. Remember the optimal slope angle for a slide is 38 degrees, but 25 to 45 degrees is the big window where they can occur...they are even know to pull snow out of areas that are far flatter than 25 degrees. Trees can be a safer place to ride, but lets not let that lull us into a feeling of comfort or over confidence. We need to keep our wits about us and continue to ask ourselves the right questions while we are in the back country...no matter what the conditions are. Trees can hide the terrain above us from view. Trees are a terrain trap or consequence magnifier.
The originator of this post admits that they were in an area that they felt comfortable...possibly that they had not seen slide in the past. I think there are a lot of folks out there these days that recognize that to be a dangerous human factor...risky decisions don't feel so risky when you are in an area that you are comfortable with.
So I'm not telling folks that they shouldn't go out and ride. The point I want to get across is that there are resources in place out there that give an outstanding perspective of what you can expect under certain conditions. We just have to make ourselves pick up these resources and put them in our tool box. My crew is very strict on this and has made many a rider go home from the trail head when they have shown up unprepared. We do ride the terrain that we want to ride and most of the time it's some of the biggest around BUT we do it by a strict protocol...ONLY ONE PERSON IS EXPOSED TO AVALANCHE DANGER AT A TIME, ALL OTHERS HAVE EYES ON THE ONE IN DANGER...We know the hazard trend, we understand how to relate the forecast and danger scale to the terrain we are in and/or around...lastly we leave ourselves an out for the possibility of changing conditions or changing levels of risk acceptance. If we do nothing else, expose only one rider to danger at a time and lives will be saved.
Sorry to be so long winded here guys, and sorry for the loss of yet another rider...we feel your pain. Just need to use these case studies to help others become educated...personally, the more I know, the more I realize what I don't know.
Ride safe out there.

 

[2XM3]

know all this is said before but if ur going to ride the mountains, buy a abs or other pack...look 900 bucks is not even as much as 1 life flight out or a normal hospital day. imho not foolproof by any means but it improves your chances