Should Union's even exist any more?

[94fordguy]

Skibreeze, Montana sledder, and slyrydr hit the nail on the head. I'm a union carpenter and proud to have been trained in a union apprenticeship program. I've been in the Carpenters union for 4 years now and in that time I have met and worked with some very knowledgeable people, and some that weren't quite so knowledgeable. Not all union members make the crazy amount of money that all of you seem to think we do, the regular hands like myself only make about $25/hr max on the check, but with a decent benefits package. As Mag said, the guys that simply can't keep a job will be addressed accordingly, and the guys that work hard will be the last ones to go when lay-off time comes around.

Probably one of the best attributes to a unionized construction industry is that every apprentice goes to school several times a year in addition to on the job training to be instructed on the textbook way of doing things properly. this helps insure that the customer will receive a good product that won't fall apart after a few years.

You say Unions come in and cut down the price because they are backed and can afford to take a hit, I say bogus! In this valley the Union contractors must bid very competitively to even have a chance at getting a contract, it's easy to lose a bid to a company that has the option of paying it's workers half the money if they decide they want to.

Every individual that is part of a union is just as easy to get rid of as a non-union hand is. A union employer still has every right to fire a worthless employee as a non union company does.

I would be happy to continue to share more positive benefits of being in a union if you would like, but I would hope that you can see that it's not always the little guys that make the unions look bad, they really are a good thing to have around.

Your welcome to do some research on unions if your still not convinced, I think you'll find that many of the things you take for granted like your 8 hr work day and safer working conditions just may have come into existance thanks to a union.

 

[AdrenalineAddict]

I believe I mentioned that some are worth their hourly rate, unfortunately many are not, but think they are, therein lies the problem with unions. Nothing annoys me worse than calling the hall for an A-list scraper hand and receive a hand that has no understanding of the word "production" or "efficiency". Again, some are great hands worth their rate of pay, other's I've seen called from the hall aren't worth a lick. If the union would weed out those who only work half-speed I'd be more positive. In the middle of a very busy construction season many of the proven hands are already working and a call to the hall delivers the bottom of the barrel and you're stuck with low productivity workers for the remainder of the job. When this happens it should be perfectly legal to send them down the road and have them replaced by a productive hand, someone who may not be affiliated with a union if we'd like, but unfortunately the law protects them.

 

[94fordguy]

I believe I mentioned that some are worth their hourly rate, unfortunately many are not, but think they are, therein lies the problem with unions.

That is a valid comment, and as a response to that, remember that that does not mean that the guys that are worthless are protected like Fort Knox, every one of us is subject to being fired or laid off just as much as anyone else, which usually keeps most people at least trying to do the work.

It's an imperfect world and everything has it's exceptions.

 

[RideGuy]

I've never been in a Union and I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts. As an outsider it seems they no longer stand for preventing unfair labor practices, but are used as a tool to bully employers, waste hard working people's money, and help give the lazy in our society a free ride.

I was waiting for my plane last week talking to a guy in the Anchorage airport. He was an independent plumber and was so frustrated how he continually gets underbid on jobs by union shops. They do the job for cost or lower because they are subsidised by the union with back end money.

I personally feel that if you don't like your job, salary, or benefits, ask for something better and if they don't comply go get a new job. If you have skills, you'll find a job. If you have no skills or your skills don't demand the salary you want then get a better education in a field that pays more.

The biggest Union run industries are a complete disaster. Education, Airlines, Auto, and our own govornment. They are all ineffective and bankrupt.

Am I completey ignorant or out of line on the value of Unions here?

This is a subject that we can talk for hours about so I will try and make this simple.

The Unions achieved their goals many years ago and it's been hard to keep fighting a good fight when times have become good for all union and non union alike.

Union Goals were and are to create as much work as possible and to pay the employees a fair wage. Safety was and is another concern as well as fair treatment of the workforce no matter what gender or race.

All non union work place's enjoy a fair wage because of the unions. Because of the threat non union workplaces have the ability to bring a union into a workplace. Non union workplace's enjoy the bargining power because Union's exist and non union employers do not want you to enjoy the bennifits that union employees have fought so hard for from day 1....

If there were no Unions and when Unions start to loose grounds all wages will slide, as will safety and favortisim in the work force not to mention Bullying tactic's by the employers.

If the owners didn't have to pay a decent wage for the fear of a strike or bringing a union into their enviornment nobody would be getting fair wages and the rich would just get richer. If your employer only had to pay you 10 dollars/day they would be more than happy to do so.

I have been in a union for 17 years and there is alot of stuff that is hard to agree with but it's about creating employment and having trained quality employees to do the work instead of making Joe blow walk into a blade that isn't locked out and get cut in half just to reduce the downtime on a cost basis..... Being a Summer student you will never have any idea how things really work and you'll probably just be mad because you had to pay dues and never got to enjoy the bennifits.... For expamle if you got sick and couldn't make it to work for a month you would still have a job at a Union.... In a non union enviornment you would of been replace and if you were not a great worker or a favorite you would be looking for new work within you ability's from whatever ailed you...

Unions are necessary in my oppinion and without them we would not have the fair wages we have now..... Ya it sucks to have to pay alot in union dues and to support other who have to negotiate the contracts for many workforces by going out on strike..... But if we didn't do this you would see a degraded work enviornment for all workers around the world.

I like earning a higher wage opposed to making nothing while the rich get richer.

I.M.O.

 

[Midge907]

Do we need unions when it comes to the construction trades? Yes we do!!! I have been a Union Sheetmetal worker for 8 years now, and that whole time I have had health, and pension benifits. For a couple of years before starting my apprenticeship I worked as a non union welder for a couple of different companies and most of the time didnt have health insurance, and have nothing to show for retirement during those years.
Do we have people in our union that arent worth there wages? Of course we do, but the thing is they will be the first to get that lay off slip when times are slow. I know its frustrating for companies that call up the hall and the only people on the list arent worth having on the job. There are way around this, if the unions nowadays are usully willing to just give a card to someone that has expierience.
I know a few people that dont want to join a trade union because there making more money. How are they making more money? There getting Davis Bacon wages on government jobs, so there recieving all the union benefits right on the check. Heck I would do the same, If I knew it could last a lifetime, and I could gaurantee myself a good retirement. But if it werent for unions there would be no Davis Bacon.
In our town Welders make anywhere between $12/hr with out benifits at Greer tank and welding , up to $40+ hr/ with benifits working as a union sheetmetal worker, or with the plumbers and pipefitters, etc. The funny thing is everyone one of these shops have nearly the same Shop rate, with the same amount of overhead. You also have to remember most union construction trades make high hourly wages compared to other sectors, because we opt to have no paid vacation, sick leave, or holidays. If we had all that our wages would go down dramatically.

 

[INDEEP]

I've been in the UTU (railroad) for 12 years now. There's good and bad things to being unionized at our job. The main thing that's good is the pay. I don't know how much better it is than non unionized railroads but I'm thinking it's around 20% better. The bad thing is it protects some of the most lazy, useless people you guys could ever meet. Coming from a few non union jobs it's hard to take. The fact that no matter how good you are at your craft the POS next to you makes the same is hard to deal with. I'd have to say with Obama in office that's just the way the country is headed. So yes, for the most part IMO unions are outdated and for the most part corrupt.

 

[Snow Fox]

I had to join a union for my new job.

No I'm not happy with it, but I will deal with it until I move on to the next one.

You had to join, even though WY is a right to work state?

 

[tech a]

So let me ask you union people. how is Obama's plan to share the wealth & raise taxes on corporations going to help you?
I have been a member of a union before, however, I could not see any way
the democrats helped me????
I have many friends who are union members and they are hard workers
and great people, some of my best friends. It just seems like there is a
huge difference in both types of unions and also in the part of the country
they are in. I don't for a second begrudge anyone for they make in this world.
I guess my biggest contention is that a lot of Union people blindly vote
the way their Union tells them to without taking the time to research
or debate a candidates merits. How many of you could go to your hall and
have any luck trying to get brothers to vote Republican? Do you think you
would be shouted down? Is this freedom?

 

[xrated]

Here's my take.

Grew up just south of the Iron Range in MN.

It was booming as a kid, now that place is dead! Why.....

In my eyes, it may have something to do with the fact that the unions came in and told every Tom, Dick and Harry who went right to the mines after high school or even before then, that they should be paid more.

The workers thought this was pretty good.....so there were guys with a diploma who were making 35-40 bucks an hour to scoop ore into the back of a big dump truck. Adn making the same amount to drive the truck out fo the pit and 1/4 mile to the mill.

I think the unions priced themselves right out of a job since other countries did it cheaper.

Lets be honest, is driving a really big truck 1/4 mile at a time really worth 40 bucks an hour?

 

[Adrenaline Revolution]

I guess my biggest contention is that a lot of Union people blindly vote
the way their Union tells them to without taking the time to research
or debate a candidates merits. How many of you could go to your hall and
have any luck trying to get brothers to vote Republican? Do you think you
would be shouted down? Is this freedom?

Yes, My Union backed the Obamessiah and our local crook of a governor here but me and all the other stewards in the part of the factory that I work in voted for Mac.
When I stated my disgust for Nobama to my Business Rep in the Union he had no problem with me at all and just reminded me that Voting was the most important thing and to vote for the person I thought was best for the job.

For some reason the unions back the Dems. I have an idea of why but it does bug me that they don't seem to care who's wearing the Dem suit.
They backed Hillery until Obama beat her.

 

[Idaho Ice]

I was gonna drag this f***er up on Friday anyways!

 

[Midge907]

I guess my biggest contention is that a lot of Union people blindly vote
the way their Union tells them to without taking the time to research
or debate a candidates merits. How many of you could go to your hall and
have any luck trying to get brothers to vote Republican? Do you think you
would be shouted down? Is this freedom?

Maybe they do, but I can speak for myself, and that is I voted for Mccain/Palin. The company that I work for gets most of its income off of oil company overspending and overspending by the government on military bases. Some of that work may disapear now that Obama wants to tax the rich more(big oil), and I'm sure he wont spend as much money on missle defense.

 

[priest lake rmk]

Lets be honest, is driving a really big truck 1/4 mile at a time really worth 40 bucks an hour?


I assume you are talking to me? In my area we don't just drive 1/4 mile at a time. We have mountains and houses are being built on them. Say what you want but it takes a different kind of guy to take a 76,000 lb top heavy truck with a moving load down and or up some of the roads we do. Get in a mixer on a good sidehill some day infact add some snow and ice to the game, you will pee yourself.

 

[justadude]

Supply and Demand!!

 

[Himark]

Unions were intended to protect workers from bad employers. Give them a voice as a group.

In my opinion some unions much like Affirmative Action have gone so far in the wrong direction they have lost there usefulness.

My thoughts EXACTLY that is why in Nebraska we just successfully voted Affirmative action out. We no longer have that law in place.

My answer to topic on this is



NO

 

[xrated]

Lets be honest, is driving a really big truck 1/4 mile at a time really worth 40 bucks an hour?


I assume you are talking to me? In my area we don't just drive 1/4 mile at a time. We have mountains and houses are being built on them. Say what you want but it takes a different kind of guy to take a 76,000 lb top heavy truck with a moving load down and or up some of the roads we do. Get in a mixer on a good sidehill some day infact add some snow and ice to the game, you will pee yourself.

Oh no priest not talking about you....I'm talking on the iron range in MN where you drove from one end of the pit to the next or out of the pit and back into it.

 

[augerin]

organized labor began in an attempt to gain some measure of fairness relative to the big companies ruthless exploitation of countless, faceless men and women who were forced to work for no more than subsistence wages....14 hour days, 7 days a week....frequently in filthy, despicable conditions...the carnegies, rockefellers, kennedys (to just name a few) that controlled the huge companies of a century ago, had nothing but contempt for the newly arrived people from europe, asia and other depressed areas of the world....company bulls (enforcers) were ruthless....jobs to support a family were nearly impossible to attain...companies colaborated to suppress wages and any meaningful opportunity for labor to rise above the most meager of circumstances...mobility was not as we know it today....the use of arms, even automatic weapons, to suppress the people are well documented for those who care to research the subject..........are there now abuses by unions?, sure there are....but some of these "abuses" have very real reasons for existing, and unless you know the history and tradition of the situation, you are probably not in a position to judge the superficiality of what you may see....i worked in transportation, and when i first went to work, the government rules were such that the company could work me six days a week....and they did, when i got my day off, it was where ever in the north american continent i happened to be....i normally could only manage two days a month at my home....i worked for 425 dollars a month, and it was pretty bleak.....the workers at my company organized....we soon were able to get our day off each week at our homes, wages slowly increased and after several years, i was up to 2000 a month....i was able to buy my first car that wasn't a 300 dollar beater....i could start to raise my kids with some semblence of hope for a better life....i watch the revolving door of the big managers, who suck way more than their share of the profits of our company, and exit with "golden parachutes" far in excess of what they contributed, while the rank and file employee gets nothing beyond the limits of their contract....it's the laborers who are more economically tied to the company, not the managers, who move every 3-5 years, and who care more for what they can exploit in the short term for their own benefit, than any average worker is capable of....the greed and avarice displayed by the bright boys on wall street and main street (bankers) have caused more economic chaos than any union could ever envision.....and one more thing, the largess that is enjoyed by a great many people in this country, is there in large part because of those who dared, against enormous odds, to organize in an attempt for a better life......the ignorance of history will cause the need for many problems to be solved....again

Well said! If you like your 40hr work week and overtime, then you should be thanking the guy's that gave there LIVES for it. Unions are not perfect but niether are companies.

 

[xcr800man]

Here is my take from Management's side of the table.

Are Unions NEEDED - No
Can they be a benefit? - YES

I work for a small - medium sized Millwright Construction company in the midwest. We are a Union Contractor with a Union fabrication shop that compliments our field crews.

What needs to happen is the Unions need to reinvent themselves. STOP being an obstruction to their customer... THE CONTRACTOR, and start coming up with good effective means to increase their marketshare by providing a highly skilled, motivated, quality workforce. Our customers do not care if our employees are Union or not. They want their work done in the most efficient cost effective manner. If we can't provide that over a non-union company then guess who gets the work.

I can remember about 5 years ago, it was cheaper to hire a non-union contractor and mark up the labor than it was to have our own guys do the work. If you are a customer and the billing rate is 50% higher, you better get twice the productivity out of the higher rate to break even. If you think that on average that Union workers are twice as productive as non-union, you are delusional. From what we see, there is little difference. Some of the better Union workers we have were skilled Non-Union workers and crossed over. Being Union does not specifically make you better. You have to prove yourself everyday.

As far as apprenticeship, some of the best young tallent that we have went through the apprenticeship. Problem is that not everyone goes through the apprenticeship. I call them barstool Journeymen. And they do exist, with no skill dragging down their coworkers that get paid the same. Sounds like socialism doesnt it.

With all that being said, the Union allows us to gear up in times of need and can be an ally. We could not find the manpower to gear up in the speed that we can being a Union shop.

The downfall of Unions is when they are more interested in the "Organization" and less interested in the "Industry" that provides their job. To illistrate this further, we at times are the ones protecting the employees from the Union who wants to swipe their apprenticeship, pension, and healthcare funds to subsidize those that dont have enough because they dont work enough hours... Didnt I hear something recently about "spreading the wealth?"

Instead of our employees banking for retirement funds, they have to give it to the deadbeats unwilling work work... sounds fair doesnt it.