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Residential solar power (PV) - Anyone have a system?

Jeff C

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
I was looking at installing one of these systems until I looked at the payback period and it just does not make sense for me or my situation.

I plugged in our highest cost per kwh $.061 (Summer months) and I used 14,472 kwh of electricity last year.

All net rebates and tax incentives and I come up with a 32.2 year payback! And the average system will last for 30-40 years....... I used two different calculators and they were very close to each otehr in payback period


Hardly worth it when my costs are 6 cents per kwh........




It seems to me that you need high rates, or lower cost systems or both to make these things worth it....

Does anyone have one of these systems (Feedback requested)? If so would you do it again?
 
does that take into account the rise in energy prices that will happen over that period? It is a bit of a speculative play, but if energy prices skyrocket it might be good, but if they stay the same or drop, yeah not worth it.
 
Give it a few years and the technology in the solar cells will progress.... too much $ for not enough energy produced IMO.
 
you looking at systems by these guys?

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I play indoor soccer with a girl who used to work for them. :D She got us shirts for the team. :p

From what I've read, they're good at what they do...they are expanding too, so they must be doing 'something'.

www.pvpowered.com

PV3.jpg
 
Jeff C, I just thot I'd add this....

I was looking at installing one of these systems until I looked at the payback period and it just does not make sense for me or my situation.......
And the average system will last for 30-40 years....... I used two different calculators and they were very close to each otehr in payback period.......
One additional thing to consider is storage battery replacement. The solar panels produce DC (Direct Current) at a low voltage. Obviously a household needs 120 volts AC (Alternating Current). The way its commonly done in these systems is the output of the panels charge fairly hefty deep-cycle storage batteries.
The battery interface is needed because the solar panel output , obviously,is not constant. Night time hours, cloudy days, precip, etc.

Still in the DC world to this point. Note: a transfromer can't be used to step up voltage with DC input. It will overheat, and prob'ly burn out.

So, to make AC from DC requires an "inverter". Back in history a DC motor driving an 120Volt AC alternator was used. Worked fine, but not energy efficient.
Now days a solid state inverter using high power handling transistors operating in an switching-oscillator at 60 Hertz (cycles) provide interrupted DC into a step-up transformer, with the secondary windings providing the desired voltage. 120 Volts AC, in this example. This current then can be utilized.
There are other electronic methods to do the "inversion", but this system is easy to understand.

So my point, again, was that deep cycle batteries will need to be replaced over time, so that would be another cost to be considered.

Interesting, I have worked on systems like this on the North Slope Alaska, between Fairbanks and Dead Horse (Prudhoe) back in '91. The solar systems were used to power radio repeater tower sites for mobile telephones used by trucks hauling supplies to the oil field. (not cellular)

OK, somebody will ask what powers the sites when it's pitch dark in winter.?
Easy. Thermoelectric generators. These produce DC as well. Consists of an array of metallic thermocouples, that are heated by a catalytic oxidizer (burner.) It uses propane as a fuel.

The same inverter is used... it doesn't care where the current comes from.

Now somebody will ask, when it's -60F how do you get the propane to flow?
Insulated tanks buried in the ground, close to the equipment shack.

How do the tanks, usually 1,000 gallons total get refuled? A helicopter flies in replacement propane about 2X per year.

There, you now have more than you wanted to know about it. I got 35mm slides from that adventure, somewhere.:rolleyes:

Edit: one last interesting fact. Not solar, but all cell phone tower sites, and central switching offices, as well as land line copper wire phone systems run off 48 Volts DC massive battery banks. These are float-charged off the commercial power grid, or back-up Diesel Generator. The inverters in this app are "scary". 48 Volts DC, and between 600-800 Amperes. Copper buss-bar connections damn near as large as your arm!
This is why a standard "corded" phone will work even when the AC power is out to your home. Land phones are all powered from the Central Switching office. Been that way since the early 1900's, believe it or not.
Everybody should keep an old standard wired phone handy for loss of power emergencies. Unless a cordless phone base unit has some kind of battery back-up, they won't obviously work with loss of AC.

My $1.98. ;)
 
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Wiz:

What I was looking at was the grid tied system, that needs no batteries.

There is no point to using batteries in my situation.


I was shocked by how long it took in my analysis to get a payback......

If I lived out in the open, I would do both the PV and a wind generator.
 
Wiz:

What I was looking at was the grid tied system, that needs no batteries.
There is no point to using batteries in my situation.
I was shocked by how long it took in my analysis to get a payback......
If I lived out in the open, I would do both the PV and a wind generator.

OK Jeff, copy that. Somehow the solar STILL has to be made into AC to feed back onto the grid.
Would be interesting to know what type of inversion process is used in your app.

Hah, hope everybody enjoyed my turorial on alternative power systems. LOL. :p
 
Note: a transfromer can't be used to step up voltage with DC input. It will overheat, and prob'ly burn out.

It won't burn out, it will just be a short and burn/blow fuse of whatever the supply is doing. XFMR's (transformers) only work on AC, just a big inductor... inductors look like just a wire to DC. Just a little FYI
 
Would be interesting to know what type of inversion process is used in your app.

To be grid tied you only need a grid approved inverter, all solid state I believe. The difference of a grid approved or rather pure sine inverter is well, it is a pure sine instead of a sine that looks more like a square wave like cheaper inverters do.
 
It won't burn out, it will just be a short and burn/blow fuse of whatever the supply is doing. XFMR's (transformers) only work on AC, just a big inductor... inductors look like just a wire to DC. Just a little FYI

Yes, we HOPE there's overcurrent protection. What you state is true. As a 37 year career as electronics prof, I have seen a few "cooked" transformers on student circuit design projects! :D
 
Snowlizard,

Curious to see what calculators you used. Also, does MN have a net metering law? That might change the figures a little bit, as it allows your meter to spin backwards when you are providing power to the grid. This is much better then having a separate meter for your solar generation, that gets sold at whole sale prices back to the grid.


I have designed a couple of systems (just PV panel size, Wind Turbine size, battery bank sizing, and the inverters, though no installation experience). One thing that was found especially with stand alone systems (no grid tie) is that it is much, much, much, much, (get the drift here) cheaper to reduce your electricity load, rather then to try and provide solar power to excess and useless load.

Changing all of your lights over to more efficient CFL's, LED's ($$$$), buying energy star appliances (you don't have a 20 year old fridge in the garage do you?) like fridges, dishwashers, clothes washers, and your heating. AC load is reduced through better efficiencies in insulation, windows, doors and the like.

Since for your house, your PV generation is mostly going to be viewed from the utilities as load reduction (always a net import into the home as solar pv panel size will be less then loads) so it is cheaper and better in the long run (can install pv panels later when they are cheaper) by just getting your electric loads to be as low as possible. Once you get your loads as small as possible, then your pv system can be sized smaller to meet your smaller load.

Food for thought.
 
As a 37 year career as electronics prof, I have seen a few "cooked" transformers on student circuit design projects! :D

Dang, that means I need to be extra careful of the crap that comes out of my mouth.:p

Yah, I guess that makes sense, Got Burn't Windings?
 
Dang, that means I need to be extra careful of the crap that comes out of my mouth.:p

Yah, I guess that makes sense, Got Burn't Windings?

:D I knew what you meant. Carry on (as we do on SW).

EDIT: OOPS, just saw your previous post. Well I'm basically an RF guy, but I have worked on mobile communications, (2-way radio), paging, Cellular, also Ham Radio, for decades.
So I have had to work on hardware thats powered by alternative sources, and if the source is the problem, I have to diagnose that too.
I'm not well versed on the commercial power rules and mandates.
Sounds like thats more your area. :)
 
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The other thing to keep in mind... Can't just hook up inverted DC power to the grid... it has to be in phase with the grid power. Oil-filled transformers are pretty spectacular to watch when they explode.

The battery backup systems at telco COs are pretty impressive though... Beautiful chandeliers in those buildings.... the sound of relays clicking on and off 24 hours a day.... :P
 
.............
The battery backup systems at telco COs are pretty impressive though... Beautiful chandeliers in those buildings.... the sound of relays clicking on and off 24 hours a day.... :P

Spose there are some ancient relay/Stroger CO's in some remote areas. Cross-bar switches are similar, and newer, but now mostly obsolete too.
And yeah, they are noisy.
Now CO's "switches" for land and cell phone are main frame computers that switch all the call through-put. Everything including conversation from analog or land phones is digitized and handled as data thru the switch. The "switch" also runs off the 48 Volt buss.
All you hear now is the din and whine of cooling blowers. Gets old fast.
 
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Solar

Hey Jeff just saw your post, I had a PV system installed last year and went online July1, 2007.

I have a 6.7 Kwh system, Sharp panels and 2 Sunny Boy inverters(google them for details and specs)

The cost and payback are all determined by usage, its kind of tough on the net to explain what I mean and why I did it but I will give it a shot. To start you have to determine how long you stay in your hose and how much evnergy you use and what type of appliances you have or may want to get.

I live in Ca. my home is a 2880 Sq ft. Ranch style, because of the home design(Long) I have 2 A/C units and 2 hot water heaters! I also have a pool and kids who are home all summer so my usage is high! my average utility bill per month for the year is $472(average balanced for the year)

My baseline usage is 700 Kwh per month(tier 1) given to me by the utility company, this is the number to stay under before penalties kick in, I avg 2700 kwh:eek: so 2000 Kwh or so of my usagage is tiered and my highest tier I pay .48 (baseline rate is .11.) My system generates enough power that I will not pay any penalties and stay under my baseline 10 out 12 months.

My net cost for my system was $26,000 I have a 8 year loan and I pay about $384 per month to the bank on a system I will own, plus about $62 per month to the utility company for a total of about $446 per month. I save only about $30 per month going solar. but I do not really care if utility rates go up I am not affected and after 8 years I will own my system clear and free.

Honestly even if I broke even it would still be worth it because I am buying a power source instead iof renting it! I can send you a link to a website that tracks my power generation all day every day if you PM me, and you could google earth my house if want to see my system ( I have 42 2' X 4') panels

Niner
 
I lied

Sorry I lied just checked Google earth and Yahoo Maps niether one is up to date enough to show my panels!

anyone use a better(more up to date) map site?
 
I just signed up for an energy audit. I did the more expensive one ($100 and takes about three hours) that also uses infrared to track heat loss, and they also hook up a blower to your outside door to see where air is infiltrating.

I think this would be a good first step to reduce the load off the bat, and then be in a better position later on if the PV systems come down in price later.

But at $.058 in winter and $.061 in summer, I think we have some of the lowest rates in the country. I just cannot justify the expense.
 
Snowlizard,

Curious to see what calculators you used. Also, does MN have a net metering law? That might change the figures a little bit, as it allows your meter to spin backwards when you are providing power to the grid. This is much better then having a separate meter for your solar generation, that gets sold at whole sale prices back to the grid.


I have designed a couple of systems (just PV panel size, Wind Turbine size, battery bank sizing, and the inverters, though no installation experience). One thing that was found especially with stand alone systems (no grid tie) is that it is much, much, much, much, (get the drift here) cheaper to reduce your electricity load, rather then to try and provide solar power to excess and useless load.

Changing all of your lights over to more efficient CFL's,
LED's ($$$$), buying energy star appliances (you don't have a 20 year old fridge in the garage do you?) like fridges, dishwashers, clothes washers, and your heating. AC load is reduced through better efficiencies in insulation, windows, doors and the like.

Since for your house, your PV generation is mostly going to be viewed from the utilities as load reduction (always a net import into the home as solar pv panel size will be less then loads) so it is cheaper and better in the long run (can install pv panels later when they are cheaper) by just getting your electric loads to be as low as possible. Once you get your loads as small as possible, then your pv system can be sized smaller to meet your smaller load.

Food for thought.

There is a really dirty side to CFL's and the enviros don't really want you to know. Pete Keller works for Eco Lights Northwest, the only company in Washington state that recycles fluorescent lamps. He says it is illegal to put the bulbs in the trash in some counties in Washington, but most people still throw them out. Due to the amount of mercury in the bulbs. General Electric has been making compact fluorescents for 20 years. Now the company admits that the little bit of mercury in each bulbs could become a real problem if sales balloon as expected.

And what if the break in your house?

What if you break a CFL?

- Open windows in the room to air out fo 15 minutes before cleaning up
- Don't use a vacuum as this will spread mercury into the air
- Wear gloves when cleaning up
- Use a disposable brush to gently sweep up fragments
- Use a moist paper towel to help pick up remaining tiny fragments
- Wrap the pieces up in layers of newspaper and place in a sturdy sealable bag or container along with anything used to clean up the mess.

The advice is then to place the container or bag in your trash, but perhaps it should be treated as hazardous chemical waste; i.e. stored safely until such time that it can be taken to a hazardous chemical disposal facility. Given all that messing around, it just pays to be extra careful when handling a CFL bulb :).
 
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