React "all-new geometry"

[colorado_matt]

Sorry about the lack of response. Haven't been on here for a while and just stumbled on this thread. I'll go back to the original and answer there too. (edit, I just went back to that other thread and while some of the comments were funny to read, I don't feel the need to answer there as the thread has taken a much different direction )

I have a lot more variety of experiences with around 30 different riders in the different demo groups that I have had out since that original video. I will say that grouping 'all 36" aftermarket kits' together really isn't fair as each has their own unique characteristics. I have asked anyone in our videos to not mention ANY specifically by name as I have no interest in calling anyone out. Again, these opinions shared are from people getting a chance to ride the new 850 and are comparing to whatever kit they have or have previously ridden. That doesn't make any difference to me as I want people to give an honest response. With all of the different people that have been on these sleds with me, I have seen numerous aftermarket kits on their own sleds and every single person has been blown away by the React front end in 100% stock form with 100% stock monotube shocks with the new sls springs. Every single person has commented that they are impressed with the new front end in all riding situations. I haven't taken any measurements comparing a stock 18 to stock 19 React front end. I will try to do that and see if there are any differences based on the sleds in my possession.

On a personal level, I have had the opportunity to ride multiple different 36" aftermarket front ends setup in all different ways from stock shocks with and without a swaybar and with various aftermarket shocks with and without a swaybar. I know a lot of people like the setup that is on their sled. I personally did not like the overall handling from these kits compared to stock as I felt like I was giving up more than I was gaining. Again, that's just my opinion. I do love the Skinz Concept extreme front end but classify it different being that it is a completely different front end requiring arms, spindles, steering arms and shocks. Building on that, the new React front end does everything easier compared to the previous stock front end while maintaining a predictable feeling that requires less rider effort. There also feels like quite a bit less steering effort which is also welcome.

This is what I posted in a different threads that got, well, no reply so I'll put it here and see if it gets any traction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by colorado_matt View Post
We have been running a couple of them and extremely impressed in every way. Both of these currently have 700-800 miles on them. I have been sharing videos on my Facebook page of me riding them. Here is a live video we did on the mountain with a group of 4 that got to spend a day switching back and forth to for their own opinions based on them own experience. Each of them currently ride 16 or 17 AXYS with aftermarket 36" front ends. I'm happy to answer any questions.

https://www.facebook.com/mattentzsno...3402415782427/
Just some questions I have based upon the video and what's been posted on the interweb... Not being sarcastic but you can obviously see the brand of aftermarket arms on the sled front and center but cannot see the sleds in the back. I'm going to go out on a thin limb here and sort of be the ambassador for "all" aftermarket 36" kits. The riders say it's a better all-around feel on the 850, better in every way. You have to assume they are all setup properly as per the manufacturers guidelines? I ask this because I see this alot as in a customer that orders a front end kit, has some issues and calls. After a conversation and then pictures sent we figure out they really weren't properly installed. The list of dids and didn't dos is too lengthy to get into. Long and short is Polaris says "ALL NEW GEOMETRY". Now does this mean they changed camber, caster, spindle position as in forward or back, or did they simply pull them in 3"? Again just asking.
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[colorado_matt]

You are partially correct. I haven't preferred the aftermarket 36" kits on the AXYS since it was released. I absolutely loved the aftermarket 36" kits on the 13-15 Pro RMKs that I had setup that way. Of the different AXYS sleds that I rode that belonged to other people with 36" kits installed, I did not like them more than the stock width. I felt like they did weird things to the handling of the sled. Some felt quirky and unpredictable, increased steering effort, and most of all I felt like I had to work more in technical terrain to keep the sled from going too far. I honestly felt like I was in less control with those kits than 39" kits. I ran 39" kits on all of my 16 and 17 AXYS's.

Late last season I rode a sled with the Skinz Concept extreme front end on it and absolutely loved it. So I installed that kit on one of my 18s. That setup is drastically different with a taller spindle, much different spindle angle, different arms, steering rod, and the requirement of different shocks. Anyways, that kit makes the AXYS so much easier to ride which doesn't make sense until you ride it back to back with a stock setup or just about any other aftermarket setup.

Moving forward to the React front end...... it feels very similar to the mentioned Skinz setup. I was not excited when I first heard that Polaris was going in the direction of a 36" front end. But from the very first time I had the opportunity to ride it, I was shocked at how well it worked. There is noticeably less steering effort and the sled rolls onto edge easier in all situations. But here's what I was not expecting, the sled maintains the predictable feeling once it is on edge that I feel was a benefit to the stock 39" width. Of course I have my own opinion on it and people can take from that what they want. I do have about 14 days currently riding the new 850 with the React front end and continue to be impressed with the handling in every aspect. What is more impressive in my opinion, is that every single one of the 30+ demo riders that have ridden these sleds with me have all said basically the same thing. I try not to talk to them much about the sled before they ride it as I don't want to influence their opinion. I want the sled to speak for itself. Within one corner on the trail they are shaking their head and telling me how easy the sled is to steer. As we cover more diverse terrain and situations more specific to each person's personal riding preference, they really start going off with excitement and explaining how surprised they are with the handling of the sled. It really is that good and that's awesome!

One thing that I think is interesting is that when the Axys originally came out and people were going to 36” stances Matt Entz was steering people away from them hard because “the Axys doesn’t need a narrow front end and these sleds were designed for a 39” stance, blah blah blah”... or something like that. And here we are in 2019 and you NEED to have an 850 with the 36” react

 

[fastrack0]

I fell in love with the skinz concept when I rode it on matt's sled. But after riding the 850 I won't have to spend the money on it. The new front end is that good

 

[Jaynelson]

You are partially correct. I haven't preferred the aftermarket 36" kits on the AXYS since it was released. I absolutely loved the aftermarket 36" kits on the 13-15 Pro RMKs that I had setup that way. Of the different AXYS sleds that I rode that belonged to other people with 36" kits installed, I did not like them more than the stock width. I felt like they did weird things to the handling of the sled. Some felt quirky and unpredictable, increased steering effort, and most of all I felt like I had to work more in technical terrain to keep the sled from going too far. I honestly felt like I was in less control with those kits than 39" kits. I ran 39" kits on all of my 16 and 17 AXYS's.

Late last season I rode a sled with the Skinz Concept extreme front end on it and absolutely loved it. So I installed that kit on one of my 18s. That setup is drastically different with a taller spindle, much different spindle angle, different arms, steering rod, and the requirement of different shocks. Anyways, that kit makes the AXYS so much easier to ride which doesn't make sense until you ride it back to back with a stock setup or just about any other aftermarket setup.

Moving forward to the React front end...... it feels very similar to the mentioned Skinz setup. I was not excited when I first heard that Polaris was going in the direction of a 36" front end. But from the very first time I had the opportunity to ride it, I was shocked at how well it worked. There is noticeably less steering effort and the sled rolls onto edge easier in all situations. But here's what I was not expecting, the sled maintains the predictable feeling once it is on edge that I feel was a benefit to the stock 39" width. Of course I have my own opinion on it and people can take from that what they want. I do have about 14 days currently riding the new 850 with the React front end and continue to be impressed with the handling in every aspect. What is more impressive in my opinion, is that every single one of the 30+ demo riders that have ridden these sleds with me have all said basically the same thing. I try not to talk to them much about the sled before they ride it as I don't want to influence their opinion. I want the sled to speak for itself. Within one corner on the trail they are shaking their head and telling me how easy the sled is to steer. As we cover more diverse terrain and situations more specific to each person's personal riding preference, they really start going off with excitement and explaining how surprised they are with the handling of the sled. It really is that good and that's awesome!

Have you tried the React front end with the ski spacers centered? Or on the wider setting? IF so, does it change much in the way of feel?

Rode the 850 on the weekend and, yes, the new front end is immediately noticeable!

 

[colorado_matt]

We have been running one set at 36" and another set at 37". I will probably run all of mine at 37" next winter. I am very surprised how well the 36" setting feels. I will run at 37" for the best control in our inconsistent snow. If I was somewhere that snow conditions were more consistent, I might leave it at 36"

Have you tried the React front end with the ski spacers centered? Or on the wider setting? IF so, does it change much in the way of feel?

Rode the 850 on the weekend and, yes, the new front end is immediately noticeable!

 

[fastrack0]

We have been running one set at 36" and another set at 37". I will probably run all of mine at 37" next winter. I am very surprised how well the 36" setting feels. I will run at 37" for the best control in our inconsistent snow. If I was somewhere that snow conditions were more consistent, I might leave it at 36"

U mean if u lived in BC

 

[colorado_matt]

U mean if u lived in BC

That's EXACTLY what I mean!!!!!!!

 

[TRS]

Matt,
What skis are you running?
My thoughts regarding the ‘18 AXYS quirkiness, lays partially in the geometry of the front suspension.
I believe the quirkiness is exaggerated by the aggressive keel design of the stock ski.
The stock ski worked very well on the PRO Ride.
With the development of rider forward(AXYS), counter steering with the aggressive keel is causing some negative effects during slow technical riding in steep terrain. These are “my thoughts” regarding the stock ski after logging more than 3600 miles on an AXYS this year.
What are your thoughts.

 

[Spaarky]

Late last season I rode a sled with the Skinz Concept extreme front end on it and absolutely loved it. So I installed that kit on one of my 18s. That setup is drastically different with a taller spindle, much different spindle angle, different arms, steering rod, and the requirement of different shocks. Anyways, that kit makes the AXYS so much easier to ride which doesn't make sense until you ride it back to back with a stock setup or just about any other aftermarket setup.

the skinz spindle is same length as stock.... just a heads up.

Do you scale out your skinz sleds? how do you get your ski pressures?? and set up.

is it possible the combination of the new front end and possibly revised rear suspension work better in combo. rumorville is there is a couple very small changes to the rear skid. one in particular is FTS mounting.

 

[Teth-Air]

Matt,
What skis are you running?
My thoughts regarding the ‘18 AXYS quirkiness, lays partially in the geometry of the front suspension.
I believe the quirkiness is exaggerated by the aggressive keel design of the stock ski.
The stock ski worked very well on the PRO Ride.
With the development of rider forward(AXYS), counter steering with the aggressive keel is causing some negative effects during slow technical riding in steep terrain. These are “my thoughts” regarding the stock ski after logging more than 3600 miles on an AXYS this year.
What are your thoughts.

FYI I ran the offset Proride (shorter) spindles on the AXYS and the quirkiness went away. I believed the length of the stock AXYS spindle magnifies it. You can however tune most of that quirkiness out or just get used to it.

 

[colorado_matt]

the skinz spindle is same length as stock.... just a heads up.

Do you scale out your skinz sleds? how do you get your ski pressures?? and set up.

is it possible the combination of the new front end and possibly revised rear suspension work better in combo. rumorville is there is a couple very small changes to the rear skid. one in particular is FTS mounting.

I measured last night and the Skinz spindle is about an inch taller. I have been through scaling a sled with Jake from Skinz and that was really interesting. Seemed like a great idea to form a starting point. On my setup, I started with their recommended shock settings and have since made my own adjustments(minimal) while riding to get things exactly how I want them. I have actually tried 3 different sets of shocks on that front end to see how they compare and work with that geometry.

Mounting points in the rear suspension are unchanged. The difference is that the crossshaft for the front track shock crossshaft is now aluminum. Just another weight saving, but nothing different geometry wise.

 

[Spaarky]

sorry.... I should have clarified. We were measuring ride height, which appears to be the same.

 

[alt]

I measured last night and the Skinz spindle is about an inch taller. I have been through scaling a sled with Jake from Skinz and that was really interesting. Seemed like a great idea to form a starting point. On my setup, I started with their recommended shock settings and have since made my own adjustments(minimal) while riding to get things exactly how I want them. I have actually tried 3 different sets of shocks on that front end to see how they compare and work with that geometry.

Mounting points in the rear suspension are unchanged. The difference is that the crossshaft for the front track shock crossshaft is now aluminum. Just another weight saving, but nothing different geometry wise.

For some imo that aluminum fts will work fine but my crystal ball tells me it could possibly be questionable for most especially the guys that pound the moguls hard. Just thinking out loud.

 

[dexter]

I’m with Alt on the fact that the front track shock cross shaft will be an issue on the rear skid. Not a place to save weight. Looks like we already need to upgrade parts on our new sleds.

 

[Teth-Air]

Anybody measure the new React spindle compared to an 16-18 AXYS spindle?

 

[mountainhorse]

I still don't buy the the "all new geometry" as mentioned in this post from above.

I DO believe that the 37" wide front DOES have "new geometry"... but I also believe that this geometry can be replicated in a PROPERLY set up aftermarket narrow front on the previous year sleds.

I also DO believe that Matt Entz, one of the most talented riders I've seen, did feel this difference in the 2019's without doubt.

Many people have invested in the narrow front kits for their AXYS-mtn sleds and not taken the time to set them up correctly... nor set the ride heights and balance of the sleds following the install... and this 'new' front for the 2019 may in fact, feel better... If, indeed this is the case.

The same bulkhead castings are used on the 2019 AXYS-Mtn sleds as in the 2016-2018 AXYS-mtn sleds...

The steering post [#1824648-329] and pitman arm [#1824669] (aka lower steering post) have a new, for 2019, part number... so it is possible that Polaris may have 'tweaked' the steering ratio a bit... but we will only know this for sure when the sleds come out next fall and someone measures these parts.

A new ratio would surely give a different 'feel'... but this could easily be replicated.

I could be all "wet behind the ears" on this one... but, for now, this is what I believe... my opinion.

In itself... the new REACT™ 37" IFS is "All new Geometry" by way of just being narrower.

I do not believe that the spindle angle has been 'raked' fwd at all.

New geometry... the arms would need to be angled down a bit more to maintain ride height.... OR the spindles would need to be slightly longer... 'NEW GEOMETRY'

The shock would need to be mounted at a different angle with the base-eye closer to the bulkhead.... 'NEW GEOMETRY'

The arms are shorter... 'NEW GEOMETRY'

Tie rods are shorter.... 'NEW GEOMETRY'



Just my 2¢

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[06redrevx]

Anybody measure the new React spindle compared to an 16-18 AXYS spindle?

Matt Entz did measure the 19 spindle and the 18 spindle side by side on his live chat on Facebook and he stated that they are the same height.

 

[adamg]

The same bulkhead castings are used on the 2019 AXYS-Mtn sleds as in the 2016-2018 AXYS-mtn sleds...

The steering post [#1824648-329] and pitman arm [#1824669] (aka lower steering post) have a new, for 2019, part number... so it is possible that Polaris may have 'tweaked' the steering ratio a bit... but we will only know this for sure when the sleds come out next fall and someone measures these parts.

A new ratio would surely give a different 'feel'... but this could easily be replicated.

I could be all "wet behind the ears" on this one... but, for now, this is what I believe... my opinion.



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If those are the parts I think they are, they could change things like steering ratio and ackerman.

 

[mountainhorse]

For comparison to previous years AXYS-Mtn sleds....

On the 2019 AXYS-Mtn sleds.... Ackerman will change simply by nature of arms being narrower.... same is true for aftermarket narrow fronts.

Since the Drag/rack link is the same on the 2016-2019... and the idler is the same... I do not believe that the relative ackerman is changed.

The thing that MAY be changed is the steering ratio.... IE; The ratio of the amount of handlebar turning to the amount the skis turn. Which can change the feel. It very well could be that something like the steering stops only have changed.... which would leave the ratio the same.

NOW... all that being said... we need to know the distance from the spindle-rotation-center to the center of the spindle tie rod mounting point to determine true ackerman changes etc.

Any new toe-out specs will also affect the 'balance' of the steering.


All this being said... My contention is that a properly setup aftermarket narrow front on the 2106-2018 can replicate the factory React™ front in the 2019 if that is the desired result. Easily.

'Properly set up', for me, includes ride height ski and F/R skid pressures, a-arm angularity, toe-out etc.

It has been my experience that a large percentage of aftermarket suspension installations have not benefited from a thorough setup process.

This presentation is, of course, simplified.






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