question for the engine builders - oil & water pumps

[pura vida]

since it is pretty much summer (although we are lucky enough to have lots of riding left) and as always i was thinking about sleds and sled motors i came up with a question for all the motor builders or anyone else for that matter.

why doesn't polaris, or anyone, get rid of the mechanical oil and water pumps and go with an electrical setup? to me this seems like a fairly easy place to free up a little bit of power that is already there? i've had a fair number of motors apart, rebuilds and whatnot, and have always noticed the amount of resistance the pumps add to the rotation of the crank. (to me the oil pump seemed to be the bigger issue but that might change once you are actually trying to push all the fluids through the motor) so what am i missing? doesn't seem like it would be that hard of a thing to do? (maybe not aftermarket but designed from the factory) would one be more beneficial than the other? thanks

pv

 

[indydan]

since it is pretty much summer (although we are lucky enough to have lots of riding left) and as always i was thinking about sleds and sled motors i came up with a question for all the motor builders or anyone else for that matter.

why doesn't polaris, or anyone, get rid of the mechanical oil and water pumps and go with an electrical setup? to me this seems like a fairly easy place to free up a little bit of power that is already there? i've had a fair number of motors apart, rebuilds and whatnot, and have always noticed the amount of resistance the pumps add to the rotation of the crank. (to me the oil pump seemed to be the bigger issue but that might change once you are actually trying to push all the fluids through the motor) so what am i missing? doesn't seem like it would be that hard of a thing to do? (maybe not aftermarket but designed from the factory) would one be more beneficial than the other? thanks

pv

pv, I can someday see them doing that but right now the magnito is sub-par. They would be better off going to a alternator and a liquid cooled regulator.

 

[rmscustom]

I dont know much but it seems to me that as long as your crank is turning it would be good to have your water pump and oil pump working instead of relying on a electric motor.

 

[pura vida]

well that isn't a guarantee either but i'm obviously assuming the electronics to be functioning...

dan, is it difficult to improve the magneto? or install a better regulator that would be able to supply a consistent power? it's electronics, just seems like the answer wouldn't be that difficult. more expensive, but not necessarily difficult. thanks for the feedback

pv

 

[snowman80]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I beleive the e-tec has an electric oil pump.

 

[jeepin270]

Is there any aftermarket "better" magneto's available?

 

[x2700]

i wonder if ricky stator would re-wind one make it stronger

 

[mountainhorse]

Simplicity... adding other electric pumps would make more complex and more costly.

Work is work.. and if you have convert mechanical engergy into electrical energy and then back to mechanical... you are loosing effiecency in the process... and actually using More power from the engine...

The fuel pump draws somewhere in the neightborhood of 8 amps (about 100 watts). That is a fair amount of power.... add to that an oil pump and water pump... and you are still talking more drag on the motor.

For me... I prefer to keep it as simple as possible.

Good "thinking outside the box" though PV !!

 

[Fast_XC]

Mountainhorse, although I agree on the efficiency issue, it plays out a little different when applied to specific areas due to the fact that most of these devices don't really need to spin at the same rpm as the motor to function properly. This is currently born out in the automotive industry, as more and more devices are converted to electric power and yielding improvements in fuel economy. Current examples include fuel pumps, ac compressors, cooling fans, and power steering pumps. Each of these items has increased fuel mileage significantly.
Now in a sled application, it will be interesting to see how it plays out, but certainly an electric oil pump has huge advantages in packaging and calibration and should not require too much power since it is only a fraction of the volume and pressure of a fuel pump. As for the water pump...that's a little bit different, but again, it is a very low pressure pump but with a fairly high volume. In reality, again there are packaging advantages and potential advantages to changing the direction of flow through the motor. I have often thought about improving the performance of the CFI motor by reversing the coolant flow (similar to nascar motors and Arctic Cat) thereby providing better detonation resistance (due to cooler cylinder head temps) and more stable cylinder temps due to the warming effect from the coolant flowing through the heads first.
The easiest way to do this with the existing architecture is with an electric pump. Just one more advantage to having an electric water pump, never mind the elimination of the water pump seal to the crankcase....which I have to replace this year on my motor.
Just my .02
Neil

 

[LoudHandle]

My WAG on the feasibility of the original idea; The electric setup would likely add weight. While the potential is there to gain some efficiencies, but in all likelihood, it would come at a cost. You could save some gear friction and gear drag on the crank but that same or near same load would be added to the stator / lighting coil side and likely result in the same inefficiency or more so as you have now added two electric motors and their power draw to the mix.

Nothing is free! If it uses energy it must come from a source, in this case the engine, either way it is going to be a drag on the engine! I'm not going to quantify how much, but don't think you will gain the efficiencies your after.