Pump Gas...boost levels

[cb2honk]

I run 50% 110 to premium pump with no issues at 12-14psi and am verry happy with the performance, I can also tell you that my XP 800 with clutching will kill my dragon at 9-10psi ,, dont wast you time with low boost unless you run out of fuel ,,you got a turbo for a reason ,,,,remember?????

Something is not right here??? 9-10psi boosted dragon gets killed by a clutched xp800?? I had an SHR860w/14.7:1 head last year set up great and a boosted dragon running 10psi walked away with no problem, especially on the long pulls. This was at 9k-10k elevation.

 

[KAWGRN]

Something is not right here??? 9-10psi boosted dragon gets killed by a clutched xp800?? I had an SHR860w/14.7:1 head last year set up great and a boosted dragon running 10psi walked away with no problem, especially on the long pulls. This was at 9k-10k elevation.

yea on long pulls shure but try it in 600 ft on an old fire road the XP gets out in front and stays there untill you get going past 600 ft ,,,but is that why we run boost ???? at 12-14 psi its not even close!!!!

 

[milehighassassin]

There is some good info here but a few things that need to be pointed out.

You need to consider the following:
-riding Elevation
-Boost
-Airflow (5 psi in a large turbo can put more air through the motor than 10 psi with a small turbo).
-Timing
-Charge temp

All of these are a balancing point when it comes to having the right octane. As mentioned earlier, if you run too much octane you will be losing power. Run as little as you SAFELY can.

If you have an intercooler, you are going to be able to run high boost levels because your charge temperature will be lower. If you ride at a higher elevation you can also use less octane than if you ride at sea level. If you are getting aggressive on your timing you will need more octane or less boost. Most of this should be elementary but it needs to be considered.

I mentioned this in another thread but how many of you have used Toluene?

 

[mountainhorse]

I've used toluene in the past...

But according to Walbro, who make the fuel pumps, and intank lines/pickups... they say that it degrades the plastic of all these parts over a fairly short time.

Toluene, IMO, is a good additive when throttle response is not as much of an issue. Just a hair too much toluene and you will have a spongy throttle.

 

[IQ?]

Clutched stockers kill Turbo'd Dragon8
Hmm better have the Guy who clutched
That xp get into dragon clutches too...
I have never seen any stocker in front
Of My turbo D8 more than 100feet before you blows by....in drag races @8# pumpgas
Ed

 

[Jkinzer]

yea on long pulls shure but try it in 600 ft on an old fire road the XP gets out in front and stays there untill you get going past 600 ft ,,,but is that why we run boost ???? at 12-14 psi its not even close!!!!

i'd say your turbo could use some better clutching. have drag raced many sleds with mine, and a few will beat me out of the hole, and stay a sled length to a sled length and a half ahead for 100-150ft or so (60mph range) and then the turbo keeps pulling like a freight train and the N/A power band falls off.

 

[milehighassassin]

I've used toluene in the past...

But according to Walbro, who make the fuel pumps, and intank lines/pickups... they say that it degrades the plastic of all these parts over a fairly short time.

Toluene, IMO, is a good additive when throttle response is not as much of an issue. Just a hair too much toluene and you will have a spongy throttle.

Interesting, but Toluene is in most gasoline mixtures already. Many race gas manufactures use it to boost octane. From my reading, Toluene is MUCH easier on plastic and rubber. It has ZERO alcohol in it.

I am looking at mixing in maybe 1-2 gallons per tank. I have a desired octane of around 95.

 

[KAWGRN]

ahhh looks Like I ruffled some feathers LOL, yea My sleds all run like crap and everyone beats me and everyone is faster and clutching yeah I dont know what Im doing I sux LOL Have a beer its still september

 

[theshadowrider]

ahhh looks Like I ruffled some feathers LOL, yea My sleds all run like crap and everyone beats me and everyone is faster and clutching yeah I dont know what Im doing I sux LOL Have a beer its still september

"ruffled feathers".......no, scratching are heads.... yes. I think we are just a little confused why your "XP 800 with clutching will kill my dragon at 9-10psi" What do you have done to your XP and why are we running turbos on dragons if we can just clutch our xp's and "kill" turbo dragons? So we are logically asking either your xp is dang fast and powerful or is there something wrong with your dragon. I understand now and it makes sense if you are talking the xp "kills it"out of the hole down a fire road.

 

[KAWGRN]

Yes my XP is craig marchbank fast

 

[SNOMAN1174]

I run 50% 110 to premium pump with no issues at 12-14psi and am verry happy with the performance, I can also tell you that my XP 800 with clutching will kill my dragon at 9-10psi ,, dont wast you time with low boost unless you run out of fuel ,,you got a turbo for a reason ,,,,remember?????

Let me start by saying I have never met KAWGRN or seen his sleds run but this is my expierence.My home riding area is Silverton, CO and specificly Molas Pass. I have a 08 dragon 800 with boondocker turbo, no intercooler. I run 2-3 gallons of polaris race gas (factory drum) with 91 octane. Typically I will run 9-10 lbs. WHen it comes to a setup stock XP will beat a turbo D8 ( or M8 doesnt matter) it is in fact true. Only true for a 660 foot drag race though.
Last season at the silverton drags the Felker guys proved this again and again. If you clutch and regear any stock 800cc sled properly for 660 foot it will beat a 800cc turbo sled everytime. That is assuming the Turbo is set up for the mountains and not drag specific. I found this out first hand in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of the drags. In round 1 I beat a Race gas turbo M1000 runing 17 lbs of boost but only because he was really slow off the line. In the next 2 rounds I raced Felkerized XP's. In both races off the line they initially had a 5 link advantage as thier sleds were set up to get everything they could out of them in a short distance. By half way I was gaining and gaining fast but ran out of room. If the race was 900 foot I guess I would have won by 7-10 sleds but thats not the case. This was shown to me over and over as there were 4 turbo's in the drags ( 1 TD8, 2 TM8 and 1 RGT M1000). All of us lost to the same Xp's. Now had we went to the backside of Molas and highmarked it might be a different write up. But yes it's true turbo owners, a set up to run 660ft 800cc stocker will outrun us in a drag. **** my IQR 600 will beat my turbo in the 300ft probably just because of the launch and the fact my turbo would be spinning off the line for 50-100 foot.
This could be the start of a new thread. What setup would you Turbo owners use for a 660ft drag? What gearing, clutching, fuel, boost ...etc would you use? In fact I will start this thread in our polaris turbo section.
This was my opinion and expierence with this exact situation. I will probably recieve some "hate" quotes from this and a bunch of " not a chance in hell those XP's could beat me" but I challenge anyone with a true mountain turbo sled to show up in Silverton this season for the drags and prove me wrong in the 660 ft. To conclude my thought, I didnt set my TD8 up for the drags simply because it is one day a year. Yes I race with my friends all the time when we are out screwing around but its not like that is our thing if you know what I mean

 

[KAWGRN]

Snowman thanks for backing up the FACTS!!! been drag racing for 35years and for 660ft its hard to beat a well clutched N/A sled with a turbo unless you have a big turbo motor like a firecat with a 1200 bigbore with a 3575 garrett and a squirt of NOS to get it spooled which you will see at hay days next week by the way!!! but then again I dont know what the hell Im doin LOL and again the whole point to the thread is why run 10 psi when 14 is just so much more fun!!!!!!!!!Once again its september ,,,have a beer!!!!!!!---PS measure off 660ft on a hill and I think you will find its apretty big hill!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[IQRIDR]

Interesting, but Toluene is in most gasoline mixtures already. Many race gas manufactures use it to boost octane. From my reading, Toluene is MUCH easier on plastic and rubber. It has ZERO alcohol in it.

I am looking at mixing in maybe 1-2 gallons per tank. I have a desired octane of around 95.

That sounds like a little much. I used to mix in 1.5 gallons in a full tank in my street car. Like MH said it is a dry additive, it can tear up o-rings and seals but if you use a little fuel lube (klotz, lucas, etc something quality) your pump, gaskets, seals, lines should be fine. But also like MH said, throttle response suffers a small bit, toluene burns very slow and if you aren't running the boost or compression needed, it will suffer more.

 

[IQRIDR]

I think most of us could conclude that a NA sled set up for drag racing, or steep/deep climbing (low gearing, high engagement) will beat most turbo sleds in anywhere from a 330-660 drag race and shortly after that the boosted sled will catch up and take off. That's just the give and take of boosted applications. Unless you can build boost off the line with a stutter and even then you are dealing with trackspin.

I am only referring to on-snow drags, grass dragging and asphalt are a different realm with different variables

 

[milehighassassin]

WHen it comes to a setup stock XP will beat a turbo D8 ( or M8 doesnt matter) it is in fact true. Only true for a 660 foot drag race though.
Last season at the silverton drags the Felker guys proved this again and again. If you clutch and regear any stock 800cc sled properly for 660 foot it will beat a 800cc turbo sled everytime. That is assuming the Turbo is set up for the mountains and not drag specific. I found this out first hand in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of the drags. In round 1 I beat a Race gas turbo M1000 runing 17 lbs of boost but only because he was really slow off the line. In the next 2 rounds I raced Felkerized XP's. In both races off the line they initially had a 5 link advantage as thier sleds were set up to get everything they could out of them in a short distance.

If these are the same sleds that Lynn and Company brought to the Eagle Valley snow drags, they are not "stock". Yes, many of their sleds are stock but the White XP that Lynn brought to race the unlimited class in had a lot of work. I know it at least had larger carbs, and porting, I can't remember if it was bored at all. His clutching goes a long ways, and they put a lot of time in with test and tune.
Results:
http://holycrosspowderhounds.com/Default.aspx?pageId=550850

He did get beat by a Turbo Yamaha and Plate who was on one of Lynn's sleds. They also beat a Turbo Dragon that had pretty much ZERO drag setup.

Anyway, back to this thread.
I just wanted to clear up that I think a stock XP will in now way beat a turbo Dragon, if it does the Dragon is not setup correctly. I myself assume that both sleds are running at least close to correct.

 

[milehighassassin]

That sounds like a little much. I used to mix in 1.5 gallons in a full tank in my street car. Like MH said it is a dry additive, it can tear up o-rings and seals but if you use a little fuel lube (klotz, lucas, etc something quality) your pump, gaskets, seals, lines should be fine. But also like MH said, throttle response suffers a small bit, toluene burns very slow and if you aren't running the boost or compression needed, it will suffer more.

Everything I read says not to go over 30%. 1-2 gallons would be mixed in with about 9 gallons of 91 octane, so I am within those limits.

Also, I am running a high compression head. The head can run on 91 fine at elevation, but I am wanting to run a little extra octane because it is cheaper than getting some bad fuel and having issues. I also plan on playing around with the PC5 a bit as well.


Here is another thread discussing this same topic:
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=222032

Here is my post over there:

I'm curious about that Torco accelerator as well. I know I said the octane adders are garbage and I will stick by that for the auto-part stores bottles. No way you can buy a $3 bottle and get 5 octane points. The torco stuff seems to be made by a quality fueler. Interested in experiences with it.
Anyone ever try toluene or xylene?

Toluene was used in the 80's to fuel F1 cars.
Toluene also has an octane rating of 111. It is also NOT considered a fuel so it is hardly taxed. With that it will not make a good snowmobile fuel because it does not vaporize until 70 degrees Celsius. You can however use it to mix into gasoline and use it as a booster.

Few good reads on Toluene:

Rocket fuel for cars: http://elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html

A great read on different boosters:
http://sportscarforums.com/f13/toluene-my-octane-booster-choice-3257.html

European car test:
http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0503ec_octane_boosters_tested/index.html

It appears that "some" shelf octane boosters work, but they also cost between $30 and $50 (why not just run/buy race fuel?)

I'm also going to look into small amounts of Toluene (max 30%)