Propane instead of Nos?

[xrated]

Saw this over on johndee.com,

Is this guy onto something or smoking? If it has been done, is there a reason Nos is used and not propane? I know nothing about how Nos, etc works, just that I want it on my sled someday.


Ok guys, you're going to think I'm crazy for trying this, but believe it or not, it WORKS!
I mounted a 1 lb bottle of propane on a fire extinguisher bracket to my belt guard, and strapped it down with a pair of velcro straps.
I modified a torch valve and plumbed it to a tee fitting for a guage, and then out to a solenoid valve.The wiring to activate the solenoid comes off the power feed for the accessories on the Rh bulkhead, and goes to a spring loaded push button switch on the left handlebar.
When activated at idle or midrange, the engine rpm will decrease or die from the extra fuel , but at WOT, awesome power!
The principle of propane injection is similar to that of nitrous, albeit that nitrous oxide is an oxidizer, and requires additional fuel to keep the engine from burning down.
Propane however, is very high octane fuel (110+)and is introduced into the air stream (a modest amount )at the point that the carburetor is reaching its volumetric efficency(WOT)
Propane boils at -41 degrees, so as it is injected into the air stream, it cools the incoming charge to around zero degrees based on an ambient temperature of 40 degrees. I am still experimenting with finding the optimum air/fuel ratio mix,orifice sizes, etc.
Now that I see that it can work, I will next change my cylinder head over to a billet type HotSeat dome setup for dependability.
In the next few days, I will have some pix available if anyone wants to see how to DIY to your own sleds.
Another thing I forgot to mention, a cylinder of propane is only $3,
and will last considerably longer than any nitrous bottle would, as refelected in the fact that a perfect air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1 requires the use of 14.7 units of nitrous to 1 unit of fuel.
Propane requires 1 unit fuel to 14.7 units of air, get the picture?
(i.e., will last for hours if used in moderation)
If anyone has any input/questions, I am open to discussion, so feel free to contact me................................(ooo)\>_

 

[AkHockey10]

Sweet! sounds like fun! ya, get those pics up

Brad Story has (or had) a Propane Turbo Apex and that was really impressive!

 

[SnowSnob]

Are you trying this on a 4-stroke or 2-stroke?
I've heard of diesels using propane injection...I guess why wouldn't it work on gassers.
You've got my attention.

 

[xrated]

I have no idea, I found the post on another site. They guy says he will be getting pics up soon. It just peaked my interest as it sounds like a bolt on type deal. And cheaper then Nos.

Here's a link

http://www.johndee.com/discuss/messages/6/76695.html?1206639426

I was hoping some mod boys would chime in on this.

 

[HUNDO]

I was over in Halfway a couple weeks ago and watched a propane injected turbo Apex make some pretty long,steep hills look like they damn near flat...didn't ever lose track speed and the skis never touched the ground. He had what looked like a dive tank mounted behind the seat on the tunnel. A friend of his said he was pushing around 550 hp...sounds like a bit of a stretch but an impressive sled nonetheless.

 

[xrated]

I was over in Halfway a couple weeks ago and watched a propane injected turbo Apex make some pretty long,steep hills look like they damn near flat...didn't ever lose track speed and the skis never touched the ground. He had what looked like a dive tank mounted behind the seat on the tunnel. A friend of his said he was pushing around 550 hp...sounds like a bit of a stretch but an impressive sled nonetheless.

so it was like Brad Storys sled?

this guy is making it sound like it is just a shot of propane just like you spray Nos.

 

[leisureexpress]

It may or may not have been Brad Story... anyone with an apex + $10,000 can have one built. Here is a link: http://www.herbpatchnursery.com/herbpatchnursery_009.htm

 

[FSJ]

Short explaination, nitrous oxide increases the oxygen in the cylinder during combustion, one by decomposing at high temperature and two, by cooling the incoming air charge. That is why more fuel must be added to prevent lean burn down.

Injecting propane adds more fuel not oxygen, so I would assume you also need a way to add more air.

 

[Superjag]

Ok, I'm certainly no expert here when it comes to two-stroke engines (in fact, I'm pretty much an idiot), but here is my gut feeling as to why it would not work very well. DISCLAIMER: I am in no way trying to piss on anybody's ideas or discourage someone from trying this. This is just my knee-jerk response.

The reason nitrous is used as a boost in gas engines is essentially two-fold. First, and foremost, it delivers more oxygen than atmospheric air by breaking down at elevated temperatures, allowing the engine to burn more fuel and air which results in more powerful combustion. Second, the evaporation and expansion of nitrous oxide in the intake causes a large drop in intake charge temperature, resulting in a denser charge, further allowing more air/fuel mixture to enter the cylinder. The lower temperature can also reduce cylinder temps and help reduce detonation.

Propane on the other hand, does not deliver much excess oxygen when it breaks down at elevated temperatures. It is commonly used as a boost agent in diesel engines because diesel engines tend to have a significant amount of excess oxygen in the cylinders, which is "used" by the propane to increase combustion power . Gas engines, on the other hand, tend to operate at their stoichiometric limit. This means there is rarely any significant amount of excess oxygen in the cylinder, so the propane would actually be competing with the gasoline for oxygen. The result is that the lower energy content of the propane might actually lower the engine's overall power.

Keep in mind that this only applies to propane boosted engines, and not engines which use propane or some other gas as the primary fuel. Also, there may be something unique about two-stroke engines that I don't know which would affect the accuracy of my opinion. There are obviously people on this forum who know waaaay more about this stuff than I do, and I would like to hear their take on it.

Secretly, I hope it works. I'm just not so sure it will.

 

[m8boondocker]

i can see it working, cuz 2strokes work on the same basic principles as diesels

 

[Norway]

I'm not sure superjag is correct here.

You can buy propane-kits for gas engines as well. Quite popular these days since it makes the vehicle run much cheaper.

And since propane also expands it would lower intake temps and lead more air into the engine. The difference is the propane also burns, so the need for extra fuel is not the same as NOS.

Dont know a lot about this but here in Norway where fuel prices are closing on $10 a gallon the propane kit for big gassers are coming on!!

RS

 

[HUNDO]

If I'm not mistaken, these kits use propane instead of gasoline, not in addition to it like the diesels.

I'm not sure superjag is correct here.

You can buy propane-kits for gas engines as well. Quite popular these days since it makes the vehicle run much cheaper.



RS

 

[Superjag]

If I'm not mistaken, these kits use propane instead of gasoline, not in addition to it like the diesels.

That's what I was thinking. I think the same applies to Brad Story's sled? That it is not a propane boosted sled, but a sled that runs on propane as the primary fuel.

 

[XC700116]

I've wondered about this as well. I would think that if you set it up to run w/ the propane on top end w/a WOT switch you could lean out your mains a little and run the propane on top and maybe gain some power. Just thinking out loud here. anyone else got any ideas?

 

[mattymac]

If I'm not mistaken, these kits use propane instead of gasoline, not in addition to it like the diesels.

the thing with propane on diesels is that its a catylist and will burn by itself, N02 wont. For a heavy fueled diesel on N02 you can spray burning the unburned/semiburned diesel (black smoke) dropping intake temps, EGTs, and making huge HP at the same time, (i race with some guys making 600hp worth of spray, 1200+hp!!!!) If you run to much it just goes lean and misfires. Propane on the other hand makes heat, to much and bad things happen! Propane has really phased out in the diesel world.

 

[Boyko]

Saw this over on johndee.com,

Is this guy onto something or smoking? If it has been done, is there a reason Nos is used and not propane? I know nothing about how Nos, etc works, just that I want it on my sled someday.

I think the guy that posted this on johndee.com was smoking something and wanted another use for his propane torch.

 

[NickH440]

Propane's chemical composition is C3 H8, Nitrous Oxide is NO2. Everything needs oxygen to combust. As you can see Propane does not have any oxygen in it, so just by it's self it would not burn. NOS on the other hand is very combustable, because it has over twice the amount of oxygen in it then the air around us.

 

[Snorider]

but now a lot of guys in the diesel world are running both propane and nos.

they have been getting killer results with it.

 

[SUMX162]

Not going to work!

Unless you have a diesel in your sled.

The only way you could gain anything is if your sled is running lean. If it is jetted correctly, and you add propane, it will go rich. Also, there would be no power advantage to running propane instead of gasoline on a naturally aspirated engine. Propane has a lower energy content then gasoline, and give you about 15% less power then gas. The reason it works well with boost is due to its resistance to detonation that allows you to run more boost, just like race gas but much cheaper. The additional boost and fuel overcomes the energy shortage.

 

[devilrmk]

i can see it working, cuz 2strokes work on the same basic principles as diesels

Wrong. There is nothing about a 2 stroke and a diesel thats the same. There are however 2 stroke diesels.

the typical diesel is essentially a 4 stroke gas motor with no ignition system and very high compression. They still have intake and exhaust valves, and 4 strokes.

Propane injection is still big in diesels and will remain that way. Increased horsepower, increased fuel mileage and lower egt's.

SUMX162 is dead on.