PART 3: AV gas in a turbo 2 stroke
- Thread starter TRS
- Start date
TRS... I'm seeing RVP of Sunoco 110 standard as 5.6 on their website... and I see it as 8.0 on sites like smithtex...
At 8.0... it would have one of the highest RVP's of any race gas I've seen...outside of the exotic stuff.
I know you are thorough... what am I missing... website misprint?
http://www.racegas.com/fuel/1
http://www.smithtex.com/racing/fuelcomp.html
At 8.0... it would have one of the highest RVP's of any race gas I've seen...outside of the exotic stuff.
I know you are thorough... what am I missing... website misprint?
http://www.racegas.com/fuel/1
http://www.smithtex.com/racing/fuelcomp.html
Last edited:
My reference sheet is definately wrong.
I burned C-12 for nearly 20 years in our race sleds with great success. It then became difficult to buy locally. I then experimented with Klotz, Sunoco, Turbo Blue and another fuel that "skips my memory".Sunoco Standard was more consistent in all winter temp ranges. Reid Vapor is important but maybe I have put to much weight on it in the past.
Tony... Have you tried VP 110?
What kind of boost and what fuel mix do you use in your sleds?
.
What kind of boost and what fuel mix do you use in your sleds?
.
Its also interesting to see that there are fast-burning high-octane fuels.
.
.
rofl was a late night could not sleep read that with 1 eye closed .... easer to follow in the waking hours 
...
u touched on the fuel octane to boost. is their a chart/formula used to determine this or at least give a base line of where to start and how much would this chart change compared to the different CCs of engines
(And YES, you can increase charge side pressures by 'cranking it up' but you will then have to deal with all of the variables that accompany it. Those variables include finding a new balance of increased fuel octane and burn properties, increased)
...u touched on the fuel octane to boost. is their a chart/formula used to determine this or at least give a base line of where to start and how much would this chart change compared to the different CCs of engines
(And YES, you can increase charge side pressures by 'cranking it up' but you will then have to deal with all of the variables that accompany it. Those variables include finding a new balance of increased fuel octane and burn properties, increased)
oooo wanted to ask what you think about AV. gas vs race fuel? AV. has led if I remember right so I would think that it would have a totally different burn property than race fuel even at the same octane. led = lube so I don't think it would b bad but what are your thoughts {I know prob. a little off topic} thanks for the education on the subject.
Good to read this from the top... lots of good info in this tread from a lot of people.
.
.
I was looking on the vp sight they have a additive called VP madditive power boost. it their a break down of what that's riley doing to the fuels burn properties ounce per gal... well I guess what I'm asking is if we know of an additive that will improve burn and vaporization without increasing octane {something we can add to avgas to help it mimic the properties of race fuel} and not empty the wallet ??
http://801racing.com/images/pulse-tabs.jpg has any one used this or under stand what it does to fuel 'it has a nice price per tank only five bucks but u know what they say if it sounds to good to be true!! ' looks like its used by the nitro circus??
Why would you use it? What does it do?
It don't raise the octane number at all:
"Q. Does PULSE change the octane levels of fuel?
A. PULSE does not change octane levels or any other fuel specifications."
octane is not the only thing to look at when considering fuel, the av gas has many great qualities {good octane, led for lube great shelf life and over all good for our needs in boosted sleds. is it the best naaaaa far from it but for the price probably hard to beat !!! like I stated above what does it do {pulse?}
||About 801||
The overwhelming need to win is a primal urge pumping through the DNA of racers everywhere. It’s triggered the nanosecond after your first victory and doesn’t stop until the nanosecond after your last breath. Once you’ve tasted it you’re ruined for life. You’ll do whatever it takes to chase and catch that feeling again. Racers are constantly altering, transforming, revolutionizing, inventing and innovating whatever they can to subtract precious time off the clock. Ingenuity is the name of the game, and whoever plays the game the best, wins.
801 Racing exists to help you do just that. We are racing die-hards with deep roots in the fuel additive industry. We’ve spent countless hours in the lab and at the track over the last decade developing cutting edge products that make sure you get your winning fix. Simply put, we make things that make you go faster. We are 801 Racing and we’ve got exactly what you’re looking for. Gentlemen, start your engines.
about us
801 Racing is a group of racing die-hards from Orem, Utah with deep roots in the fuel additive industry. They’ve spent countless hours in the lab and at the track over the last decade developing cutting edge products that make sure you get your winning fix. They currently offer PULSE, a power boost fuel additive that provides an immediate measurable increase in horsepower in diesel, gasoline and methanol powered internal combustion engines.
We Won't Stop Until You're Faster !!!
Solid Fuel Technology - " PULSE POWER BOOST "
801 Racing produces a unique and innovative product named Pulse Power Boost, it comes in a solid red ball and is a fuel boost catalyst that completely dissolves in the fuel tank. PULSE provides an immediate measurable increase in horsepower in gasoline, diesel and methanol powered engines. PULSE has consistently demonstrated increased overall performance, providing smoother cold starts, increased throttle response and less knock under load. In addition to increased power and performance, PULSE works to remove hard carbon deposits and reduce engine maintenance costs. Pulse Power Boost will come packaged in a sealed pouch (2 pack) or in an embossed display tin. (6 pack)
============================================================
One of the most frequently asked technical questions we get at VP involves the difference between Motor, Research and R+M/2 Octane Numbers. The next most frequently asked question is why some fuel companies represent their fuels with Motor Octane Numbers, while other companies use Research or R+M/2 Octane Numbers.
Realize first that octane is a measurement of a fuel’s ability to resist detonation—nothing more. The two types of machines used for testing octane—a Motor Octane machine and a Research Octane machine—were designed in the 1930s. They were designed to test for octane numbers from the 0-100 range, therefore, any number above 100 is an extrapolation.
Both of these machines are dinosaurs and are not adequate for today's high tech fuels or engines, but they’re the only means available for testing fuels. These machines are one-cylinder engines with an adjustable head that can move up or down to increase or lower the compression ratio while the engine is running. The Motor and Research machines are the same in this respect, but they differ in several other characteristics.
The following is a comparison of the two machines used for testing octane numbers:
---------------------- Motor Octane Machine --------- Research Octane Machine
RPM --------------------------900------------------------------ 600
INTAKE TEMP.---------------300 DEGREES F -----------------120 DEGREES F
TIMING --------------------VARIABLE BASIC------------------FIXED AT 13 DEGREES (DOES NOT CHANGE)
----------------------------SETTING 26 DEGREES
As you can see, the Motor Octane machine runs at a higher RPM, higher temperature and more timing. This machine puts more stress on the fuel than a Research machine and more accurately simulates a racing engine. VP Racing Fuels always includes Motor Octane Numbers when promoting its fuels because our fuels are used exclusively for racing applications.
The Research Octane machine will always produce a higher number for the obvious reason that it does not put the same amount of stress on the fuel. This number is used by some fuel companies to trick the racer into thinking the fuel is rated higher, i.e., higher quality, than it really is. The “R+M/2” Octane Number is the average of the Research and Motor Octane numbers for a fuel and is the number displayed with yellow labels on retail level gas pumps.
When comparing fuels for racing purposes make sure to compare Motor Octane Numbers because these are the ones that count in your racing application. Focusing on the MON of each fuel will help ensure you’re comparing apples to apples with regard to octane.
But bear in mind, a fuel’s ability to prevent detonation is a function of more than just octane. For example, VP’s fuels—oxygenated or nonoxygenated—vaporize much better than competitive fuels with comparable octane ratings. This means VP fuels cool the intake charge, burn faster and yield more efficient combustion. As a result, the “effective” octane rating of VP’s fuels is even higher than the rating generated by the octane test. As a result, VP fuels will prevent detonation more effectively than competitive fuels with comparable MONs.
__________________
so I don't know if u read part 1and 2 of this post but the octane is just one of many things to conceder when buying or modifying fuels. VPs sight is packed with info and great fuels they are just costly and not in my back yard!! so I am looking for a additive that may help the burn quality of AV gas not detonation quality , I don't know what pulse from 801 racing or madditive power boost from VP is riley doing to the fuels?? I know they "don't" raise octane (and that's good I'm not looking for that AV fuels have plenty) just looking for a better fuel for a good price that's easy for me to get.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Why would you use it? What does it do?
It don't raise the octane number at all:
"Q. Does PULSE change the octane levels of fuel?
A. PULSE does not change octane levels or any other fuel specifications."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
they are not dried jellybeans lol they do something?? they say hp gains I was just wanting to know if any one knew HOW they gave the gain? just seems to reason that if it "does not change octane levels or any other fuel specifications" than it would do nothing
||About 801||
The overwhelming need to win is a primal urge pumping through the DNA of racers everywhere. It’s triggered the nanosecond after your first victory and doesn’t stop until the nanosecond after your last breath. Once you’ve tasted it you’re ruined for life. You’ll do whatever it takes to chase and catch that feeling again. Racers are constantly altering, transforming, revolutionizing, inventing and innovating whatever they can to subtract precious time off the clock. Ingenuity is the name of the game, and whoever plays the game the best, wins.
801 Racing exists to help you do just that. We are racing die-hards with deep roots in the fuel additive industry. We’ve spent countless hours in the lab and at the track over the last decade developing cutting edge products that make sure you get your winning fix. Simply put, we make things that make you go faster. We are 801 Racing and we’ve got exactly what you’re looking for. Gentlemen, start your engines.
about us
801 Racing is a group of racing die-hards from Orem, Utah with deep roots in the fuel additive industry. They’ve spent countless hours in the lab and at the track over the last decade developing cutting edge products that make sure you get your winning fix. They currently offer PULSE, a power boost fuel additive that provides an immediate measurable increase in horsepower in diesel, gasoline and methanol powered internal combustion engines.
We Won't Stop Until You're Faster !!!
Solid Fuel Technology - " PULSE POWER BOOST "
801 Racing produces a unique and innovative product named Pulse Power Boost, it comes in a solid red ball and is a fuel boost catalyst that completely dissolves in the fuel tank. PULSE provides an immediate measurable increase in horsepower in gasoline, diesel and methanol powered engines. PULSE has consistently demonstrated increased overall performance, providing smoother cold starts, increased throttle response and less knock under load. In addition to increased power and performance, PULSE works to remove hard carbon deposits and reduce engine maintenance costs. Pulse Power Boost will come packaged in a sealed pouch (2 pack) or in an embossed display tin. (6 pack)
============================================================
One of the most frequently asked technical questions we get at VP involves the difference between Motor, Research and R+M/2 Octane Numbers. The next most frequently asked question is why some fuel companies represent their fuels with Motor Octane Numbers, while other companies use Research or R+M/2 Octane Numbers.
Realize first that octane is a measurement of a fuel’s ability to resist detonation—nothing more. The two types of machines used for testing octane—a Motor Octane machine and a Research Octane machine—were designed in the 1930s. They were designed to test for octane numbers from the 0-100 range, therefore, any number above 100 is an extrapolation.
Both of these machines are dinosaurs and are not adequate for today's high tech fuels or engines, but they’re the only means available for testing fuels. These machines are one-cylinder engines with an adjustable head that can move up or down to increase or lower the compression ratio while the engine is running. The Motor and Research machines are the same in this respect, but they differ in several other characteristics.
The following is a comparison of the two machines used for testing octane numbers:
---------------------- Motor Octane Machine --------- Research Octane Machine
RPM --------------------------900------------------------------ 600
INTAKE TEMP.---------------300 DEGREES F -----------------120 DEGREES F
TIMING --------------------VARIABLE BASIC------------------FIXED AT 13 DEGREES (DOES NOT CHANGE)
----------------------------SETTING 26 DEGREES
As you can see, the Motor Octane machine runs at a higher RPM, higher temperature and more timing. This machine puts more stress on the fuel than a Research machine and more accurately simulates a racing engine. VP Racing Fuels always includes Motor Octane Numbers when promoting its fuels because our fuels are used exclusively for racing applications.
The Research Octane machine will always produce a higher number for the obvious reason that it does not put the same amount of stress on the fuel. This number is used by some fuel companies to trick the racer into thinking the fuel is rated higher, i.e., higher quality, than it really is. The “R+M/2” Octane Number is the average of the Research and Motor Octane numbers for a fuel and is the number displayed with yellow labels on retail level gas pumps.
When comparing fuels for racing purposes make sure to compare Motor Octane Numbers because these are the ones that count in your racing application. Focusing on the MON of each fuel will help ensure you’re comparing apples to apples with regard to octane.
But bear in mind, a fuel’s ability to prevent detonation is a function of more than just octane. For example, VP’s fuels—oxygenated or nonoxygenated—vaporize much better than competitive fuels with comparable octane ratings. This means VP fuels cool the intake charge, burn faster and yield more efficient combustion. As a result, the “effective” octane rating of VP’s fuels is even higher than the rating generated by the octane test. As a result, VP fuels will prevent detonation more effectively than competitive fuels with comparable MONs.
__________________
so I don't know if u read part 1and 2 of this post but the octane is just one of many things to conceder when buying or modifying fuels. VPs sight is packed with info and great fuels they are just costly and not in my back yard!! so I am looking for a additive that may help the burn quality of AV gas not detonation quality , I don't know what pulse from 801 racing or madditive power boost from VP is riley doing to the fuels?? I know they "don't" raise octane (and that's good I'm not looking for that AV fuels have plenty) just looking for a better fuel for a good price that's easy for me to get.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Why would you use it? What does it do?
It don't raise the octane number at all:
"Q. Does PULSE change the octane levels of fuel?
A. PULSE does not change octane levels or any other fuel specifications."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
they are not dried jellybeans lol they do something?? they say hp gains I was just wanting to know if any one knew HOW they gave the gain? just seems to reason that if it "does not change octane levels or any other fuel specifications" than it would do nothing
if I remember right MH. touched on the vape. of av fuel in part 1 or part 2 of this thread. don't know about archoil fuel catalyst never used it. ill see what I can dig up on the old net when I get some
Fuel Catalysts & Archoil's AR6200 / AR6900-D MAX
by Oilem Published on Friday, January 24th, 2014
We regularly receive questions regarding fuel catalyst technologies and how they work. In particular, we receive many questions about Archoil AR6200 and AR6900-D MAX. The existing definition of “burn rate modifier” and the phrase “lowers burn rate by up to 400 degrees” has caused confusion.
In simple terms, a catalyst facilitates a better burn of the fuel. Each fuel type will have a flash point and auto-ignition point, which is determined by temperature and other factors. But these are different from the burn rate.
Both petrol and diesel are composed of carbons and these carbons, or carbon chains, require up to 1200ºF to burn fully. This has nothing to do with the flash point. The flash point is the temperature at which the vapour of the fuel will ignite with the help of an ignition source. The auto-ignition point is the temperature at which the fuel vapour will ignite without an ignition source.
Once the fuel has ignited it creates an exothermic reaction (heat). It is this rapid increase in heat that actually burns the fuel (carbons) and creates the explosion in the combustion chamber, thus resulting in a massive release of energy. This is what forces the piston downwards and causes the crank shaft to rotate.
If you can reduce the temperature at which the carbons burn, say by up to 400ºF in the case of AR6200, you can improve the burn. This is achieved by increasing the surface area of fuel droplets, and starting the burn rate of hydrocarbons at a lower temperature to yield more available BTU’s from the combustion process. The fuel becomes more aromatic (a sign of increased chemical stability) and a longer residual burn occurs. By commencing the burn rate lower, the lower-end hydrocarbons are burnt and the combustion process is more residual and complete. This practically eliminates unburned hydrocarbons and wasted energy in the form of black smoke or emissions.
Altering the burn rate in this way does not directly increase horse power. It increases the energy released through the explosion, which raises torque output. The result of burning the fuel more fully also will increase torque and lower emissions, as proven by the AR6200 carbon mass balance tests. This is the same process with all hydrocarbon fuels such as petrol, diesel, ethanol, heating oil, heavy fuel oil, etc.
Now, you might wonder, will AR6200 affect the octane rating of petrol?
No, we have proven with ASTM D2699 tests that there is no change. Octane is simply a measurement of when gasoline will automatically ignite. Increases in cylinder pressures and temperatures can make the fuel ignite prematurely, thus creating the dreaded engine knock/pinging sound. Octane boosters or anti-knock additives reduce the volatility of a fuel so that it ignites as instructed, via a source of ignition rather than on its own.
AR6200 only affects the temperature at which the carbons will burn once the fuel has ignited. It does not directly alter the flash or auto-ignition point. That said, however, tests have shown that the improvement in combustion quality and stability means that the propensity of pre-ignition is actually reduced with AR6200. And this can have the effect of “raising” the octane. However, this cannot be demonstrated with a simple D2699 knock engine.
But isn’t this contradictory? Not really. When fuel is not fully burned it can leave pockets of fuel that subsequently ignite a second time, again causing engine knock. The improvement in combustion quality from using AR6200 helps eliminate this because all fuel carbons are burned fully the first time. AR6200 is not altering the auto-ignition point of the fuel, but instead correcting another inherent source of engine knock – remaining unburned fuel.
We hope this helps and if you require any expert advice then please don’t hesitate to contact us and either I or a member of my team will be pleased to assist you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ increased your torque that's why your tractor quit bogging! prob. worth trying, if u got some dump that **** in and let us know what you see/feel!
by Oilem Published on Friday, January 24th, 2014
We regularly receive questions regarding fuel catalyst technologies and how they work. In particular, we receive many questions about Archoil AR6200 and AR6900-D MAX. The existing definition of “burn rate modifier” and the phrase “lowers burn rate by up to 400 degrees” has caused confusion.
In simple terms, a catalyst facilitates a better burn of the fuel. Each fuel type will have a flash point and auto-ignition point, which is determined by temperature and other factors. But these are different from the burn rate.
Both petrol and diesel are composed of carbons and these carbons, or carbon chains, require up to 1200ºF to burn fully. This has nothing to do with the flash point. The flash point is the temperature at which the vapour of the fuel will ignite with the help of an ignition source. The auto-ignition point is the temperature at which the fuel vapour will ignite without an ignition source.
Once the fuel has ignited it creates an exothermic reaction (heat). It is this rapid increase in heat that actually burns the fuel (carbons) and creates the explosion in the combustion chamber, thus resulting in a massive release of energy. This is what forces the piston downwards and causes the crank shaft to rotate.
If you can reduce the temperature at which the carbons burn, say by up to 400ºF in the case of AR6200, you can improve the burn. This is achieved by increasing the surface area of fuel droplets, and starting the burn rate of hydrocarbons at a lower temperature to yield more available BTU’s from the combustion process. The fuel becomes more aromatic (a sign of increased chemical stability) and a longer residual burn occurs. By commencing the burn rate lower, the lower-end hydrocarbons are burnt and the combustion process is more residual and complete. This practically eliminates unburned hydrocarbons and wasted energy in the form of black smoke or emissions.
Altering the burn rate in this way does not directly increase horse power. It increases the energy released through the explosion, which raises torque output. The result of burning the fuel more fully also will increase torque and lower emissions, as proven by the AR6200 carbon mass balance tests. This is the same process with all hydrocarbon fuels such as petrol, diesel, ethanol, heating oil, heavy fuel oil, etc.
Now, you might wonder, will AR6200 affect the octane rating of petrol?
No, we have proven with ASTM D2699 tests that there is no change. Octane is simply a measurement of when gasoline will automatically ignite. Increases in cylinder pressures and temperatures can make the fuel ignite prematurely, thus creating the dreaded engine knock/pinging sound. Octane boosters or anti-knock additives reduce the volatility of a fuel so that it ignites as instructed, via a source of ignition rather than on its own.
AR6200 only affects the temperature at which the carbons will burn once the fuel has ignited. It does not directly alter the flash or auto-ignition point. That said, however, tests have shown that the improvement in combustion quality and stability means that the propensity of pre-ignition is actually reduced with AR6200. And this can have the effect of “raising” the octane. However, this cannot be demonstrated with a simple D2699 knock engine.
But isn’t this contradictory? Not really. When fuel is not fully burned it can leave pockets of fuel that subsequently ignite a second time, again causing engine knock. The improvement in combustion quality from using AR6200 helps eliminate this because all fuel carbons are burned fully the first time. AR6200 is not altering the auto-ignition point of the fuel, but instead correcting another inherent source of engine knock – remaining unburned fuel.
We hope this helps and if you require any expert advice then please don’t hesitate to contact us and either I or a member of my team will be pleased to assist you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ increased your torque that's why your tractor quit bogging! prob. worth trying, if u got some dump that **** in and let us know what you see/feel!
premix oil
can you premix 100LL with oil?
what would be the best oil for premixing 100LL?
great thread it took me awhile to read it.
i'm gonna try 100ll in my sled
can you premix 100LL with oil?
what would be the best oil for premixing 100LL?
great thread it took me awhile to read it.
i'm gonna try 100ll in my sled
yes u can premix oil in av gas I would mix what ever oil u run in your sled. from what I have read av is the best bang for the buck and seems to be what most turbo makers are testing with just remember you want the lowest oct. that you can use to keep DET from happening to get the best performance
TTT
Ive always heard that 100ll wasnt the best for high rpm more than any other negative about it.
Ive never ran it but going to start working with it this winter, theres to many turbo sleds running it over the years that I can lean towards the side of "best fuel for the money"
Ive always ran 110 sunoco and it has always been consistent and readily available for me but the price has almost doubled (which I dont mind paying if its what works)
I can get 100ll as easily as sunoco/VP and at less than half the price im definitely going to try some. With the whole RPM thing running it in a boosted apex (over 10K rpm) was always my concern.
Theres also some places close to me advertising ethanol free 93 but its over $6.00 per gallon! over $10 for sunoco (used to pay $6.50) and $4.20 for 100ll. With crappy pump fuel getting in the mid 3.00's Im ready to start running av gas!
I usually run low boost 12 psi 5-7K feet with a head shim 9.3:1 which has proven to me to be safe with 100% pump fuel but no DET sensor I usually put in about 2 gallons of 110 for some peace of mind. I can attest that when I run 17-18 psi with straight 110 when the sled is cold it definitely starts slightly harder and has slightly less on off throttle response until boost is built.
Ive never ran it but going to start working with it this winter, theres to many turbo sleds running it over the years that I can lean towards the side of "best fuel for the money"
Ive always ran 110 sunoco and it has always been consistent and readily available for me but the price has almost doubled (which I dont mind paying if its what works)
I can get 100ll as easily as sunoco/VP and at less than half the price im definitely going to try some. With the whole RPM thing running it in a boosted apex (over 10K rpm) was always my concern.
Theres also some places close to me advertising ethanol free 93 but its over $6.00 per gallon! over $10 for sunoco (used to pay $6.50) and $4.20 for 100ll. With crappy pump fuel getting in the mid 3.00's Im ready to start running av gas!
I usually run low boost 12 psi 5-7K feet with a head shim 9.3:1 which has proven to me to be safe with 100% pump fuel but no DET sensor I usually put in about 2 gallons of 110 for some peace of mind. I can attest that when I run 17-18 psi with straight 110 when the sled is cold it definitely starts slightly harder and has slightly less on off throttle response until boost is built.
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