Need help with frozen waterline.......

[m8magicandmystery]

what I always did was drill a 1/4" hole in the drop pipe and you don't have to worry about heat tape or letting water run. water will always be running one way or the other in the temp line

bingo..


yep..works good if no sagging bellys..and of course a good check valve just before the pressure storage and switch

 

[Blu Du]

I really appreciate all the help you guys are offering. This thing has been a real pain that has taken way too long. I have learned a few things along the way though and I have not paid a nickel for books or tuition. Education is expensive these days and the School of Hard Knocks is still pretty cheap comparably. lol.

I probably should have added that I have had a ground thaw machine running over top for a few days. This machine runs a hot 180* glycol solution through 3/4" hose and cycles back to itself to be reheated. You lay out many runs of hose over ground above the pipe and then cover with heat blankets or tarps and just let it do its thing. Challenge for me has been I don't know exactly where my line is. I had it borrowed for a time between the contractor needing it but it had to go back. I am not sure how effective it was through the asphalt since that is where my remaining blockage is.

I will try to attach a layout drawing that might make more sense than my descriptions but photobucket is down and I am computer challenged.

View attachment 228596

Ha.....it worked. So I labeled everything alphabetically. A is the well casing and the last one is J which is in the detail of the plumbing inside the house. One thing I have not figured out for sure is this. In the plumbing detail you see a couple stacked valves F & G. Valve F is a one way flapper valve that seems to be installed backwards to the system flow. Since I am running a pressure tank with pressure switch for the pump I am thinking that valve F is there to allow the outside frost free bib E to bleed pressure from the system even though it is outside so when open it will reduce pressure and activate the pump even though it is outside. Does this make sense? Valve G looks to be possibly some sort of anti back flow or my employee thought it was an agitator type thing that would be used with the other inside tanks to treat the high iron content. He thought it helped to suspend the particles so the tank filtration would work better. I have pics if photobucket were up.

So here is where I left it. We forced hot water through a 1/2" cpvc line inside the 1" supply line from B on the drawing to a suspected 90 at C. I let hot water run to that point overnight with no results. I have an air compressor at 40psi connected in the house at the hose bib H. If the freeze were to clear the air should pass through the open pipe back to B correct? Right now the compressor is holding 40psi at H. I pumped in RV antifreeze to the 1" supply line at B until it was running back out solid pink. I capped the 1" line at B and put it back down in the excavated ditch between the well casing A and the asphalt border. Put an electric heater in the ditch and covered the ditch with plywood and tarps and left. We are expecting sub zero for the next few days so I plan to wait that out then look into the temp line options.

Would you guys trust a temp line with heat tape over the driveway from point B to point E ant the frost free. is there any damage I could do to the frost free E by running water backward through it to supply the house? Thanks again for all help. I know giving advice in these situations and online takes time to do. I appreciate it. EW

EW I think your ford and gravey valves you are listing are actually an air injection system.do you have a galvanized pressure tank

 

[Blu Du]

ps...we run mostly well drop line all the way to the home from the wells with heat trace..and yes you can run your home easily through the hose bib,we had to do it from house to house in subdivisions that was getting new infrasturcture

We find that often copper splits when frozen so we don't use it under any earth....

a lot of people use schedule 80 for drop line down here. we use 125# poly pipe. I think k copper is getting to be the thing of the past at $7/ft for 1", but I guess if you have AZ's money then run copper so you can thaw it with your welder dumb ****

 

[EricW]

I really appreciate all the help here. Just to keep it interesting the power went out yesterday. Another long night. I got a few pics to upload.

This is where the water line comes into the house through the basement floor. Water comes in on the right side of the pic and flows to the left.



Then it goes through all this. Fiberglass pressure tank is just out of the pic on the left.



These are the treatment tanks, no ideas about these but I will be learning.



This is back when I still liked this dam house.

 

[EricW]

This is looking from the corner where the suspected 90 is back to the well head which is under the tarp near the straw bale furthest away. Frost free is just behind the orange cone. Everything left of that frost free into the house is clear.



From the well back



This is half of the pitiless adapter that sits above the submersible pump inside the well casing. It drops into the other half which is mounted through the sidewall of the well casing using the o ring to seal. This allows water to come up the well and go 90 out to the supply line to the house. This is where I suspect the freeze began. It was frozen when we pulled the pump.



I adapted the bottom of the pitiless where the pump line would normally hook up with a ball valve so I could put hot water in the top and use the valve to control pressure and volume of thawed water to evacuate.



This is the top of the pitiless which is basically a threaded boss used to screw in the lifting rod for pulling the pump out. I milled a hole in this boss into the main chamber which allowed me to put hot water from my pressure washer in the top and allow it to bleed out the bottom. It worked to thaw the first few feet. If I had gotten right on the freeze this may have done the trick. No knowing for a few days of -20 F allowed the freeze to run over 50' down the line toward the house. What an adventure. Thanks again all. EW

 

[the fix-it guy]

I think that top valve is supposed to let air out of the water lines. I would just run a temp. line for now, back feed into that faucet in the one pic. Several years ago we had our well go down, repairs were not possible for several days. With livestock no water was not an option. We set poly tanks in the shop along with temporary pump and pressure tank, trucked water in and back fed the system through a hydrant.

 

[m8magicandmystery]

"I have an air compressor at 40psi connected in the house at the hose bib H. If the freeze were to clear the air should pass through the open pipe back to B correct? "

by looking at your pics if you have the air connected at hose bib H..the air will not go through the top brass one way check valve to the well head and it looks to me as well that the black unit on the lower bypass is directional as well , so no air can go back to the well head from the hose bib H..

What is that unit in the lower bypass ..??...bleeder control..??..or just seems to be a union of some sort,but it does look like an arrow on it..??...so if it does have an arrow does it have a check valve..

So it looks like copper coming out of the cement..??..it must make the transition to pvc just under your house footings ?

I still cannot for certain say you have a 90 elbow...most plumbers would have used two 45s just as a flow enhancement..

 

[m8magicandmystery]

the unit in the lower bypass should as well be directional otherwise the top check valve is totally redundant...and these check valves should prevent the storage tank pressure from escaping back to the well...although many installations do not use them and depend on the well pump valve...

unless of course you use Blu du's example with the bleed hole..

 

[m8magicandmystery]

Start using a salt water brine, then surge the water to give a wave like effect

this seems like a good idea as well...especially heated...and it wouldn't hurt to replenish with fresh brine mix once in a while ..

OR

and if in fact its only now frozen close to the house why not make sure your storage tank is isolated with the ball valve shut off or tank emptied,then take that top cap off the brass check valve and wet vac all you can out and then pour in some of this

and if you figure its thawed then manually switch your controller as you purge all the nastiness out through the hose bib into your floor drain..

if it works...???



http://woodsmansinternational.com/l...rains-water-lines-pipes-septic-systems-sewers



Q3 - Is "LIQUI-FIRE" safe to use for frozen drinking water pipes frozen water intake pipes frozen water supply feed lines?


A3 - YES, "LIQUI-FIRE" is formulated specifically for use on intake water lines or potable water. "LIQUI-FIRE" is safe for fresh water intake lines, internal plumbing inside the walls, septic tanks, septic fields, and sewage lines.

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bullet Q4 - Frozen Water Pipes Frozen Water Lines - Will "LIQUI-FIRE" thaw my frozen water pipes frozen water intake pipes frozen water lines buried underground in the frozen ground?


A4 - "LIQUI-FIRE" will thaw any length of intake water line or intake water pipe. "LIQUI-FIRE" will work fine even if water is present in the line. It works best if the standing water is removed but that is not necessary.

Category How to thaw or fixing frozen pipes water pipes drain pipes sewer pipes septic pipes safely

One younger customer in British Columbia had a frozen water line or poly-pipe. He and his wife had bucketed water for over 6 weeks from a mountain creek on their property. He ordered 6 bottle of "LIQUI-FIRE". He poured 3 in and then flushed the pipe with water to try to push "LIQUI-FIRE" through faster. That didn't work and so he called us. He poured in the other 3 bottles and was told not to back flush. The next day he called and was as happy as can be when he told me, "If you were here right now, my wife would kiss you!" Now that's a happy customer. See us on Facebook

Happy customers blog about LIQUI-FIRE here

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About 10 years ago. Another customer in the Lake of the Woods region of Canada and United States hired a plumbing contractor to steam his intake water pipe or water line as it was frozen when he and his wife arrived home the previous day. The plumbing contractor charged him $59.00 per hour and worked steaming the 300 foot long 1 1/4 intake water line. At the end of the day, the contractor left telling the husband that he'd managed to get about 110-120 feet of the pipe thawed and explained that he could come back again the next day to try to get more thawed but that it was taking longer to thaw the ice inside the pipe with each foot. The steam was becoming colder the plumber explained. He left the customer $500.00 poorer and told the customer that he probably would have to wait until spring before the 300 foot long pipe thawed.

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The customer's wife returned home shortly after with a couple of bottles of "LIQUI-FIRE". Her husband told her that it was a waste of more money as the plumber had just told him they would have to wait until spring. She insisted her husband put it in even though he wanted her to return it to the store for the $40.00.

Happy customers blog about LIQUI-FIRE here

Sometime during the night, the couples young daughter loudly yelled from the bathroom, they had water.

 

[Blu Du]

the top check valve lets water back out to the yard hydrant. the bottom one I think is an air mixing valve to treat the water for odor. I believe the check valve for the system is on top of the pump.

 

[Blu Du]

the unit in the lower bypass should as well be directional otherwise the top check valve is totally redundant...and these check valves should prevent the storage tank pressure from escaping back to the well...although many installations do not use them and depend on the well pump valve...

unless of course you use Blu du's example with the bleed hole..

the lower one is directional and that's why there is a check valve on the top to supply water back to hydrant when pump is not working. if you look at the top check valve you may think it is backwards but that type actually will let water back to the well the way it is installed.

 

[EricW]

The guy that pulled the pump described the valve arrangement as Blu states above in post #30. I'll look into the Luiqi Fire product M8, appreciate the lead. I'm taking a break for a day and I'll get back at it on Tuesday or so when the power is back on. Thanks again everyone. EW

 

[Blu Du]

did I miss anything in this thread? I was just taking a nice HOT shower

 

[m8magicandmystery]

the lower one is directional and that's why there is a check valve on the top to supply water back to hydrant when pump is not working. if you look at the top check valve you may think it is backwards but that type actually will let water back to the well the way it is installed.

ahhh..I see says the blind man...the hydrant is fed off the main feed in..

I over looked that little detail..and the line is clear between the house and hydrant...thanks Blu -du

So Eric...maybe if the line is blown fairly clear between the house and hydrant you could valve off in the house and fill that line up with that chemical I suggested through the hydrant..

or a pulse brine effect like KSH was indicating through the hydrant...anything that won`t cause freezing issues between the hydrant and house.....Heck I hope the integrity of the pvc is still good where the main freeze is..

 

[Dam Dave]

You ran off the guy with the most experience with this........... KSH is in this business and was trying to help

I wise man listens with his ears..........a know it all never stops talking long enough to hear the answer...............dont be the know it all

a pro would have this thawed in a day no problem( I would ) after you un thaw things you better get a pro in there and put that line down deeper where it belongs

Good luck

 

[EricW]

You ran off the guy with the most experience with this........... KSH is in this business and was trying to help

I wise man listens with his ears..........a know it all never stops talking long enough to hear the answer...............dont be the know it all

a pro would have this thawed in a day no problem( I would ) after you un thaw things you better get a pro in there and put that line down deeper where it belongs

Good luck

Is this directed at me Dave? If you are aware of a Pro that can solve this in a day please do share the contact info. I will pay him handsomely. EW

 

[m8magicandmystery]

You ran off the guy with the most experience with this........... KSH is in this business and was trying to help

I wise man listens with his ears..........a know it all never stops talking long enough to hear the answer...............dont be the know it all

a pro would have this thawed in a day no problem( I would ) after you un thaw things you better get a pro in there and put that line down deeper where it belongs

Good luck

that's a very constructive post to the issue at hand... I sure would love to enjoy the knowledge of the solution as well if you have it....??

 

[05rmksteve]

Look up water jet nozzles, jetter nozzles (Granger carries these), sewer jet nozzles. You can get these in sizes down to a 1/8" and some are made to go around 90s. They can be hooked up to a pressure washer or hose bib. There's a high pressure water stream that shoots out the tip and 3 that shoot out the back at a 90 angle to held feed it down the pipe. I've used the smaller diameter ones to thaw frozen water lines more than once and the larger ones work great for frozen sewer lines. Ill try to post some pic's.

 

[EricW]

Look up water jet nozzles, jetter nozzles (Granger carries these), sewer jet nozzles. You can get these in sizes down to a 1/8" and some are made to go around 90s. They can be hooked up to a pressure washer or hose bib. There's a high pressure water stream that shoots out the tip and 3 that shoot out the back at a 90 angle to held feed it down the pipe. I've used the smaller diameter ones to thaw frozen water lines more than once and the larger ones work great for frozen sewer lines. Ill try to post some pic's.

Thanks man. It sounds like they might work well to put in your ear too just before you give up. lol. Actually the water gods smiled on me and I am back in business. Ill check 'em out at Grainger next time in. Thanks again all. EW

 

[EricW]

Look up water jet nozzles, jetter nozzles (Granger carries these), sewer jet nozzles. You can get these in sizes down to a 1/8" and some are made to go around 90s.

Found THESE and they do look slick. Worth a try if it happens again. EW