MPI/Yamaha Viper turbo 250+hp upgrades

[Matt@MPI]

I can tell you that I have run flow simulation on both 2 stroke turbo, 4 stoke turbo with different plumbing to them. Side load an intercooler is less then ideal as far as pressure across it goes but it works ok and for lower boost you would never notice it.

The old M7 turbo that 1st came out they would side load an air box from the Mag side. Guess what the PTO side would alawys run lean. I decide one day to draw the manifold up and do some flow studys on it. By side loading it there wouldb 13% less flow to the PTO cylinder. An intercooler helps with this but greatly but you can still see my point.

To me the biggest concern is if you are a throttle happy type of a guy and you off and on the throttle any.

Whats going to happen with the fuel that is injected into the intake side of the intercooler?

Now you have a BOV less then 4" away from the 4th injector. What do you think will happen when that BOV opens when you chop the throttle? What do you think will happen to the extra fuel in the intercooler?

Now for the scary part!!! Your climping a hill a WOT and flip this bad boy over. Shut your motor off get the sled right side up and have to hold the throttle wide open to get her to start again. Anyone ever done this????
Now in the case of a back fire you have a intercooler with fuel in it. Can you say BOMB.

I'm by no means saying this wont work, it just not the right way todo it and the cons out way the pro's

Mike

Mike I think you bring up some valid points. All stuff we thought of during the testing and design process. This extra injector isn't supplying a lot of fuel just enough to help out were the factory ones can't. This injector only comes on a higher boost, 10-11 PSI. If this was our main way of supplying fuel I could understand these concerns. The BOV is vacuum operated so during the time you let off the throttle to the time the BOV opens that extra fuel has been consumed. In 13 years I've never needed to hold the throttle wide open on a four stroke Yamaha to start it after being upside down? Maybe I'm just lucky??

 

[Matt@MPI]

In the picture it clearly shows the gems box with the traditional vacuum line hose. Is this one piggybacking the main injector box and using boost for reference?

Your right. In the picture it show's the old style blue hose. That's a mistake. All of them will use the MAP sensor on the air box for boost reference.

 

[christopher]

Also I have wondered for a few years now, and even more now that the ECU on the Viper/7000 is redesigned over the nytro, why they(yamaha,Cat) add the support for the sensors needed for a turbo?

Cat knows how to make it happen. They have the experience in turbo'ing a 4 stroke. The problem is the 1100 has some handicaps as for as mountain riding. That being said if the ECU was capable (maybe it is) Wouldn't yamaha/MPI marriage be further ahead if when the MPI turbo accessory kit was install you add a couple sensors that plug directly into the harness and a new map is downloaded into the ECU that would unlock the ECU's ability to recieve data from these and input it into the "turbo" mapping?

This is what I would love to see and I think that they would sell 50% more turbo kits. Maybe the EPA is all over that and that is the issue? Not sure. I saw that the turbo is marked EPA compliant at haydays.

Not speaking with any authority here.
But from many conversations over the last few years, the EPA certification on an OEM Turbo installation directly from the factory has been an issue.

"I" think we will see a factory turbo option in the not to distant future on Vipers. But none of the players will confirm this to me, and I base that on nothing more than casual conversations and observations of testing..

As for the "Marriage".
Have you ever seen Yamaha do anything quickly?

 

[Matt@MPI]

Also I have wondered for a few years now, and even more now that the ECU on the Viper/7000 is redesigned over the nytro, why they(yamaha,Cat) add the support for the sensors needed for a turbo? Cat knows how to make it happen. They have the experience in turbo'ing a 4 stroke. The problem is the 1100 has some handicaps as for as mountain riding. That being said if the ECU was capable(maybe it is) Wouldn't yamaha/MPI marriage be further ahead if when the MPI turbo accessory kit was install you add a couple sensors that plug directly into the harness and a new map is downloaded into the ECU that would unlock the ECU's ability to recieve data from these and input it into the "turbo" mapping? This is what I would love to see and I think that they would sell 50% more turbo kits. Maybe the EPA is all over that and that is the issue? Not sure. I saw that the turbo is marked EPA compliant at haydays.[/QUOTE]

That would be nice. But this is what we have to work with. We're trying to make the most of what we have to work with on a budget within most can afford.

 

[BigFish BC]

so for all the engineers here, have any of you seen a flow test done on there intercooler at 10+lbs of boostyou guys do understand that injector is only spraying above 10lbs of boost,so you chop the throttle its not spraying,you roll it over its not spraying.even if you are on & off the throttle it wont spray till you are above 10lbs of boost.i would understand guys concerns if it was spraying as boost started but not at higher boost levels.iam not defending mpi but iam pretty sure yammi would have something to say if it didnt work right.

 

[Turbo11T]

Not speaking with any authority here.
But from many conversations over the last few years, the EPA certification on an OEM Turbo installation directly from the factory has been an issue.

"I" think we will see a factory turbo option in the not to distant future on Vipers. But none of the players will confirm this to me, and I base that on nothing more than casual conversations and observations of testing..

As for the "Marriage".
Have you ever seen Yamaha do anything quickly?

LOL I had a friend who dated a girl for almost 10 years before getting married. I shall call him "YAMAHA".

Also I have wondered for a few years now, and even more now that the ECU on the Viper/7000 is redesigned over the nytro, why they(yamaha,Cat) add the support for the sensors needed for a turbo? Cat knows how to make it happen. They have the experience in turbo'ing a 4 stroke. The problem is the 1100 has some handicaps as for as mountain riding. That being said if the ECU was capable(maybe it is) Wouldn't yamaha/MPI marriage be further ahead if when the MPI turbo accessory kit was install you add a couple sensors that plug directly into the harness and a new map is downloaded into the ECU that would unlock the ECU's ability to recieve data from these and input it into the "turbo" mapping? This is what I would love to see and I think that they would sell 50% more turbo kits. Maybe the EPA is all over that and that is the issue? Not sure. I saw that the turbo is marked EPA compliant at haydays.

That would be nice. But this is what we have to work with. We're trying to make the most of what we have to work with on a budget within most can afford.[/QUOTE]

Understandable.

 

[Matt@MPI]

I dont care if they have 20 yrs of mtn riding and testing. Anytime you inject fuel before the throttle plates you will have the issues listed above.

As I said early will it work OK. Sure will. Are they leaving HP, and driveabilty on the hill absoutley.

Christopher Why did you switch from MPI gem control to Jeff's PCV controller?




Have your rode a push turbo sled before? They are one of the worse running turbo sleds I have put a leg over!!! There is a reason MPI and yamaha are together and not yamaha and Push.

To my knowledge there are several turbo manufactures that inject before the throttle bodies.

The difference in the GEMS controller that Christopher is vastly different. We now use a external MAP sensor.

 

[christopher]

Christopher Why did you switch from MPI gem control to Jeff's PCV controller?

Did I fail to clearly address this in my review of Psychosled's Bridge Controller?

Here is the original review
http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=329894

My MPI Supercharged Nytro had an odd issue where the fuel delivery was not smooth under all conditions. Having disucussed that problem with the older GEMs unit with many members here on SnoWest and having allowed Jeff to take my sled out for a test ride at Togwotee, he suggested I give his new Bridge Controller a try. I did as he suggested and the problem vanished.

As I stated earlier, i have a LOVE-HATE relationship with the GEMs controller.
I LOVE it for its amazing simplicity.
I HATE it because it so stinking simple that it's hard to get into it and re-program it.

But.
When it is properly dialed in, there should be NO need at all for the normal rider to ever have to go into it and reprogram it. MPI & Yamaha are both betting on the fact that the new program in the GEMs unit is completely dialed in for the new Vipers to the point that no user remapping should be needed. Granted, ONLY TIME WILL TELL, but hundreds of MPI Turbo kits are being shipped out and we will have a ton of user feedback in the coming weeks confirming or denying that it works as advertised.

One way or the other we are going to know VERY soon now.
If the new GEMs unit works as advertised, everyone will love it.
If it fails, then Psycho will have a whole new customer base to sell to!!

 

[TurboM700]

so for all the engineers here, have any of you seen a flow test done on there intercooler at 10+lbs of boostyou guys do understand that injector is only spraying above 10lbs of boost,so you chop the throttle its not spraying,you roll it over its not spraying.even if you are on & off the throttle it wont spray till you are above 10lbs of boost.i would understand guys concerns if it was spraying as boost started but not at higher boost levels.iam not defending mpi but iam pretty sure yammi would have something to say if it didnt work right.

I have was actually just working on one this morning.

Did I fail to clearly address this in my review of Psychosled's Bridge Controller?

Here is the original review
http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=329894

My MPI Supercharged Nytro had an odd issue where the fuel delivery was not smooth under all conditions. Having disucussed that problem with the older GEMs unit with many members here on SnoWest and having allowed Jeff to take my sled out for a test ride at Togwotee, he suggested I give his new Bridge Controller a try. I did as he suggested and the problem vanished.

As I stated earlier, i have a LOVE-HATE relationship with the GEMs controller.
I LOVE it for its amazing simplicity.
I HATE it because it so stinking simple that it's hard to get into it and re-program it.

But.
When it is properly dialed in, there should be NO need at all for the normal rider to ever have to go into it and reprogram it. MPI & Yamaha are both betting on the fact that the new program in the GEMs unit is completely dialed in for the new Vipers to the point that no user remapping should be needed. Granted, ONLY TIME WILL TELL, but hundreds of MPI Turbo kits are being shipped out and we will have a ton of user feedback in the coming weeks confirming or denying that it works as advertised.

One way or the other we are going to know VERY soon now.
If the new GEMs unit works as advertised, everyone will love it.
If it fails, then Psycho will have a whole new customer base to sell to!!

Might have been a little cranky this morning. I must apogize, in my line of work if we can gain .5hp buy doing something different we will. Sometimes I need to remember that these are just snowmobiles.

I didnt realize that one single injector was only coming on at 10psi. It not ideal but it works.

Cheers
Back to work

 

[Matt@MPI]

I have was actually just working on one this morning.



Might have been a little cranky this morning. I must apogize, in my line of work if we can gain .5hp buy doing something different we will. Sometimes I need to remember that these are just snowmobiles.

I didnt realize that one single injector was only coming on at 10psi. It not ideal but it works.

Cheers
Back to work

Your fine! Its tough on our side. We're trying to keep things simple. Is there a different way to do this? Yes. But for what we're trying to do, it works just fine. Its an optional piece. If you don't like it or don't need it don't buy it. We just thought it would be a nice option if you wanted it.

 

[Deep Powder Guy]

Is the fuel controller water tight ? Can condensation build up inside the controller which than freezes overnight causing difficulty with button adjustment due to a frozen control pad ? In the past I had issues with the control pad because in the dead of winter and it's bone cold it would freeze from condensation.

DPG

 

[Sharp]

Matt,
How much is the 250hp kit if I didn't snow check one through Yamaha and I bought it through MPI.
Sharp

 

[Matt@MPI]

Is the fuel controller water tight ? Can condensation build up inside the controller which than freezes overnight causing difficulty with button adjustment due to a frozen control pad ? In the past I had issues with the control pad because in the dead of winter and it's bone cold it would freeze from condensation.

DPG

Now that the box doesn't have a hole in I for the boost reference it's 100% water tight.

Matt,
How much is the 250hp kit if I didn't snow check one through Yamaha and I bought it through MPI.
Sharp

Stage 1 viper kit from MPI $4595
fuel pump $319.95
4th injector $449.00
Total $5363.95
OR
If you bought one through Yamaha for $2000.00
intercooler upgrade $1449.00
fuel pump $319.95
4th injector $449.00
Total $4217.95

I can help out on that price a little if you don't start with a Yamaha kit.

 

[turbo800]

Now that the box doesn't have a hole in I for the boost reference it's 100% water tight.


Stage 1 viper kit from MPI $4595
fuel pump $319.95
4th injector $449.00
Total $5363.95

OR

If you bought one through Yamaha for $2000.00
intercooler upgrade $1449.00
fuel pump $319.95
4th injector $449.00
Total $4217.95

I can help out on that price a little if you don't start with a Yamaha kit.

Anybody else noticing the Stage1 upgrade cost is more than the Yamaha base kit???

 

[TRUEBLUEMAX]

Anybody else noticing the Stage1 upgrade cost is more than the Yamaha base kit???

Upgrading factory kit to stage 1 is 1449. Last time I checked 1449 is less than 2000???

 

[turbo800]

Upgrading factory kit to stage 1 is 1449. Last time I checked 1449 is less than 2000???

Stage1 needs ALL 3 components for a true Stage1. I see $2219 to upgrade. Viper runs out of fuel at the injectors at 8psi, no way your making 250HP without doing other upgrades!

General rule of thumb 10HP for every 1 psi boost. 12psi x 10HP= 120HP + 130 base HP = 250HP

 

[Matt@MPI]

<O</O
You can choose to run just the intercooler or just a fuel pump grade or mix and match. Some guys might only want to run 10psi with just the intercooler. All intercoolers will have the base welded on for the 4<SUP>th</SUP> injector, if you choose to run the 4<SUP>th</SUP> injector you simply drill out the hole with the supplied drill bushing and install the injector. We installed it on ALL intercoolers to make it easier to upgrade without welding or shipping.<O</O

 

[NM]

Stage1 needs ALL 3 components for a true Stage1. I see $2219 to upgrade. Viper runs out of fuel at 8psi, no way your making 250HP without doing the fuel pump upgrade! Not only that but you need the 4th injector cause the factory 3 are tapped out!

General rule of thumb 10HP for every 1 psi boost. 12psi x 10HP= 120HP + 130 base HP = 250HP

Just to be clear, the pump doesn't max out at 8 lbs, the stock injectors do. There are other companies running 270 hp with stock pump but they use 3 extra injectors.
Just don't need any wrong information floating around out there.
From what I can tell, the fuel pump is needed because when the compression was lowered, higher boost is needed to achieve those kinds of hp numbers. When higher boost is used with a 1:1 regulator, it maxes out the fuel pumps ability to push that much pressure. Base fp on the regulator they are using is 44 psi plus roughly 15 lbs increase when max boost is met. 44+ 15 =59 lbs fuel pressure which is getting close to the max that pump can push.
The stock pump has no problem with supply, it is the pressure that stops it.

 

[turbo800]

Just to be clear, the pump doesn't max out at 8 lbs, the stock injectors do. There are other companies running 270 hp with stock pump but they use 3 extra injectors.
Just don't need any wrong information floating around out there.
From what I can tell, the fuel pump is needed because when the compression was lowered, higher boost is needed to achieve those kinds of hp numbers. When higher boost is used with a 1:1 regulator, it maxes out the fuel pumps ability to push that much pressure. Base fp on the regulator they are using is 44 psi plus roughly 15 lbs increase when max boost is met. 44+ 15 =59 lbs fuel pressure which is getting close to the max that pump can push.
The stock pump has no problem with supply, it is the pressure that stops it.

Fair enough, I'll "correct" my post, but my original point is still valid!