Mototrax for my 06' KTM 300 xc-w or New bike +Timbersled

[Colorado^]

What I have found that is almost 100 percent in my circle is that if you come from dirtbiking and have never snowmobiled you will have 20 times more fun on the snowbike. I personally would not run a turbo your first year out on the snow so you get a feel for it.... We run 10000 plus and have plenty of fun with stock power. If you have to run a turbo you will need to find someone that can send it to you tuned in my option and Toby is fairly close to you for that..... Fuel injected 4 banger with a stat, hand warmers and battery will most likely give you the most enjoyable first experience... I wouldn't even mess with the springs till you find it is an issue. Also riding with other snowbikes really amps up the fun factor. For the prices you are quoting below I would be looking at a new yammi in my opinion.

No turbo this year for sure. I'll take a look at the new YZ450F's. I'd be hard to over look this low hour KTM 500 xc-w near me though. It's got most of the goodies on it and I'd love to have a four stroke street legal bike I could use over summer. There's a few million acres of nation forest near me, that I haven't ridden on my 300, that a 500xc-w would be perfect for.

Is a close ratio MX bike going to be that much better than wide ratio 500? MX bike would need a lot of upgrades, no?

[edit] Re-reading the responses, looks like "Hunter Recreational Products" already answered my question.

 

[capulin overdrive]

Here's a vid of 2009XCW, which has the exact same tranny as your 2006. Granted this one doesn't sound jetted worth a darn, but Jethro ain't liking the wide tranny. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E94i4SXDgnQ

 

[capulin overdrive]

And a newer XCW, tuned better and believe the 6 speeds aren't as wide as the older 5 speeds? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvfdxv0mrb0

 

[Colorado^]

OK gents. I'm going to see if I can pick up that 14' KTM 500 xc-w tomorrow, if it's still for sale.

Probably go with that and the 16' TS TSS kit mentioned above.

If it's not enough power, then I'll have the option for a turbo.

If the snowbike thing doesn't work out, then I still have something for summer... still keeping that 300 though.

Pretty freaking excited!!!

 

[Colorado^]

Here's a vid of 2009XCW, which has the exact same tranny as your 2006. Granted this one doesn't sound jetted worth a darn, but Jethro ain't liking the wide tranny. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E94i4SXDgnQ

That has to be THE most entertaining way to collect fire wood!

Hopefully the wide tranny is OK on the 500 in the snow.

 

[capulin overdrive]

That has to be THE most entertaining way to collect fire wood!

Hopefully the wide tranny is OK on the 500 in the snow.

Yeah, there's lots of 500xcw's on the snow. I'm running a 16 500xcw with a CMX longtrack. It's fine.

 

[GlennRMK]

OK gents. I'm going to see if I can pick up that 14' KTM 500 xc-w tomorrow, if it's still for sale.

Probably go with that and the 16' TS TSS kit mentioned above.

If it's not enough power, then I'll have the option for a turbo.

If the snowbike thing doesn't work out, then I still have something for summer... still keeping that 300 though.

Pretty freaking excited!!!

I've ridden the 500 a bit and IMO it works great. However, I think a 450 MX bike is better. The 500 works ok with the wide ratio, I just find the rev limiter way too easy. Never hit the limiter on my 450.

That being said the 500 is way, way better for technical trails.

Nothing worse then a 450 MX bike on technical single track.

Around here you can find like a 12 450 KX, RMZ, CRF for $4k and used 14 or 15 kit for $3500.

Those dang 500s bring top dollar around here. Everyone wants $7k for a used one.

 

[AZ800]

^^What he said. The only bike I've ridden as a snowbike is my '13 YZ450, at low altitude. Never much over 5kft and under 5 most of the time so far.
What I can say is I would NOT want it to have any less power than it does.
What I mean is if wide ratio, heavy crank, etc of any of the dual purpose bikes takes away from the torque, I'd just opt for a MX bike.
Just dumb luck that's what I got for my first snow bike.
I've ridden in CO for years and I know what the altitude does to an engine. My mod M1000 was pretty good at 10-11kft. Here in WA it felt like a turbo!

Colder drier air and light snow where you ride will help offset some of the power loss compared to warm, wet air and heavy sticky snow here, but 2 miles hi is 2 miles hi! Put the most hp you can under your @ss on a snowbike in CO.

 

[Colorado^]

Apparently, boondocker are no longer making turbo kits for snowbikes

I think you guys are 100% right that it's going to be tough to get enough power out of a na bike at this altitude. ~3% power loss for every 1Kft, so I'm down 30%. Cold dry air is going to help, but 30% is 15hp, so the 50hp 500xc-w is down to 35hp. Maybe one of the new 450's @60hp would be better (~42hp at 10Kft), but that's still a lot of cash to splash on a maybe...

...and I know I'm quoting peak HP, but it's area under the curve that matters most.

So I'm going to do some research into a turbo before selecting a bike, since it's probably pretty likely I'll want one, sooner or later. It seems there are a few being made, but the bike selection is pretty limited. Gotta pick the turbo first, then the bike...

Then again, for a bit more than the price of a new bike, I could get a RMK 800 pro. Heck, I could even add a turbo and it would still cost the same as a new bike with a track...

Total. Analysis. Paralysis.

 

[GlennRMK]

IMO your worried too much about the power.

In the tight trees they all have plenty of power. I'm switching to the 300 this year for easier cold weather starting and no engine braking as well as not liking the four strokes in the dirt.

If your riding with sleds/open Meadows the bike is kinda boring. In the trees the bike is a blast. Get a bike and forget the turbo

 

[Grr]

That's the best reason to keep the 300 on the snow. Buy Another head and cut it, get that compression UP even higher as much as you can. Basically retain stock power at altitude. Maybe porting as well

 

[Robster]

In my mind you really should focus on option no 3 but forget the Boondocker turbo option. Way too many guys have thrashed their engine with the BD Turbo. IF you after have tried a turboed bike feel like you can live with the downsides of a turbo, then go for a KMS kit the next year. With a 500 (I ride a 500 exc) you have a huge advantage in technical riding as some already has pointed out. You ride it with the grunt and not with the top end power much. Personally I could not stand riding with a screaming 2s that needs to be on the pipe as soon as it is a bit deep. But I know of a bunch of guys who prefers that to the 4s grunt riding. If you buy that kind of setup, you can easily sell it fast if you just dont like the Snowbike thing.

//Rob

Wow guys, thanks a ton for all the helpful responses!

I guess I have some thinking to do...

My options are:

(1) Use my 300 xc-w with the mototrax cheapest option, but have to change winter/summer. Gearing not the best. Might be a total disappointment at 10-12Kft. ~$5K

(2) Used 450 mx bike with TS TSS ~ $6K for bike, plus $6.5K for the track, ~$12.5K

(3) Used KTM 500 xc-w. $7.5K for bike, $6.5 for track ~$14K. Can use the 500 over summer (hassle) and it would be the best choice if I was going to add a boondocker turbo?

(4) **** the snowbike idea, and just get a sled. RMK pro 160hp... $8-12K.

Any of these snowbikes will require a second set of forks, or at least some new springs. Also if I get a new moto, it'll need heated grips, carb heater, new intake etc... probably $1000-$3000 including forks.

I've never ridden a sled or a snowbike, so I have no idea, but from watching vids (and from years on my KTM), I think I'd much prefer a snowbike. BUT a sled sure looks like the easy option.

Head still spinning lol!!!

 

[powdermuncher]

The bigger issue with wide ratio bikes is RPM you need to be able to rev the engines out to grab the next gear. Most wide ratio bikes have lower rev limiters and just bounce of the rev limiter and will not quite pull the next gear. That is where the Yamaha YZ450FX comes in with the same high rev limiter as the Motocross bike 1500 rpm higher than the WR model or similar KTM models. That is why the KTM 350 works surprisingly well revs to the moon and always pulls the next gear if raved out. One Reason I do not like the 2stroke or small bore bikes as a snowlike is that you have to always be on the pipe or way up on in the revs on them. The 450s cruise around at halve to 3/4 throttle just fine and have some extra when you need it , not so with 2 strokes or small bores. If you get a bike make sure you have friends to ride with. Most of my friends are into sled skiing and I found myself getting a new sled for just that, the bike will not take 2 people up a hill in powder.

 

[hiltz]

Not a single issue with my 15 500 xc-w TSS ST.

I love it and cant wait to get some snow!

 

[Colorado^]

I've watched a lot of snowbike vids and the tree riding looks like a lot of fun. But it's the faster trail/open riding that look the most appealing. Or being able to pull a steep hill and catch some air over the cornice. Stuff like (see you tube links below) ... and I assume you need way more than 35-45hp that a 450/500 is going to make at 10-12Kft. I want it to pull like a 300 in the dirt, if that's realistic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ziAQztd-bU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSFucwMTQxs

Probably best that I do some research on turbos first, though...

Another option could be a CR500 with a built 640 engine. Don't those put out 125hp at sea level? That would be a healthy 85hp a my altitude. Very expensive engine, but CR500's are only $3-3.5K.

Also, any experience with those KTM 500's at my altitude guys? I know my 300 pulls considerably harder down in the desert at 5-6Kft.

Yeah, I'm obsessed about the power thing. You have to be up here. I'd be suspension obsessed too, if my bike lost 4" of travel due to altitude

 

[Colorado^]

In my mind you really should focus on option no 3 but forget the Boondocker turbo option. Way too many guys have thrashed their engine with the BD Turbo. IF you after have tried a turboed bike feel like you can live with the downsides of a turbo, then go for a KMS kit the next year. With a 500 (I ride a 500 exc) you have a huge advantage in technical riding as some already has pointed out. You ride it with the grunt and not with the top end power much. Personally I could not stand riding with a screaming 2s that needs to be on the pipe as soon as it is a bit deep. But I know of a bunch of guys who prefers that to the 4s grunt riding. If you buy that kind of setup, you can easily sell it fast if you just dont like the Snowbike thing.

//Rob

6 days... oh yeah!

 

[Colorado^]

That's the best reason to keep the 300 on the snow. Buy Another head and cut it, get that compression UP even higher as much as you can. Basically retain stock power at altitude. Maybe porting as well

Does it work that way? I know compression helps, but stock power at altitude!!??

 

[wwillf01]

I've watched a lot of snowbike vids and the tree riding looks like a lot of fun. But it's the faster trail/open riding that look the most appealing. Or being able to pull a steep hill and catch some air over the cornice. Stuff like (see you tube links below) ... and I assume you need way more than 35-45hp that a 450/500 is going to make at 10-12Kft. I want it to pull like a 300 in the dirt, if that's realistic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ziAQztd-bU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSFucwMTQxs

Probably best that I do some research on turbos first, though...

Another option could be a CR500 with a built 640 engine. Don't those put out 125hp at sea level? That would be a healthy 85hp a my altitude. Very expensive engine, but CR500's are only $3-3.5K.

Also, any experience with those KTM 500's at my altitude guys? I know my 300 pulls considerably harder down in the desert at 5-6Kft.

Yeah, I'm obsessed about the power thing. You have to be up here. I'd be suspension obsessed too, if my bike lost 4" of travel due to altitude

Been down the cr500 at altitude... Fun and exciting bike but the gears are just to short... In my experience it is easier to climb higher an go faster on a modern mx... What you explain a turbo will be up your alley with the ability to pull every gear...that being g Sai you can still have plenty of fun with out a turbo... Jethro450 on YouTube does some great comparisons...on YouTube...

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[GlennRMK]

I've watched a lot of snowbike vids and the tree riding looks like a lot of fun. But it's the faster trail/open riding that look the most appealing. Or being able to pull a steep hill and catch some air over the cornice. Stuff like (see you tube links below) ... and I assume you need way more than 35-45hp that a 450/500 is going to make at 10-12Kft. I want it to pull like a 300 in the dirt, if that's realistic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ziAQztd-bU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSFucwMTQxs

Probably best that I do some research on turbos first, though...

Another option could be a CR500 with a built 640 engine. Don't those put out 125hp at sea level? That would be a healthy 85hp a my altitude. Very expensive engine, but CR500's are only $3-3.5K.

Also, any experience with those KTM 500's at my altitude guys? I know my 300 pulls considerably harder down in the desert at 5-6Kft.

Yeah, I'm obsessed about the power thing. You have to be up here. I'd be suspension obsessed too, if my bike lost 4" of travel due to altitude

IMO a snowmobile is better for what you wanna do.

 

[mpowyo]

I was down this exact rode. I had both 12 tsmh and 14 tsmh on my 08 300xc-w with lots of power mods worked great but the gear gap was an issue. Plus i was alway paranoid bout burning it down being in the pipe so hard for so long all day.( but it was fun and had more of a snowmobile feel.. power wasnt an issue). So I decided on 500 xc-w. on 15 tsmh and a 16 yeti 137. I love the bike in dirt and snow but the suspesion in stock form sucks on your kit and changing it turns this awesome trail bike into an mx bike onthe trails .. going back and forth sucks so now have a 13 ktm sxf for the snow and it is the best so far imo. Can I aploplogise to my 500 now cause it is the best bike fir me that I have ever owened. clearly durable,reliable, plush,powerfull... smooth power. I am mid 40s and am a c class dirt rider.