Machine shop may have found the belt problems

mountainhorse · Mar 21, 2017

Actually...besides some first year issues... IMO... the build quality on the G4-850s is pretty darn great.... and I'm a dyed in the wool Polaris guy.

.

christopher · Mar 21, 2017

d8grandpa said:
Maybe excellent questions, but not ones that should have to be asked on a 2017 sled!!!
And don't hold your breath thinking you will get any answers from BRP.
I have personally put a lot of miles on beside these sleds all winter, and when they are running correct they are a performance beast. But the engineering and build quality is by far the worst joke in the industrie.
Maybe the 18's will be better, i hope for you doo peeps you will get some resolution.

Corporations are funny creatures.
Just like most people, they don't like getting attacked in public and flayed. So they tend to be cautious in what they say so their comments can't be twisted and used against them.

BRP is following this thread.
And they have already seen Eric's post with his questions and thoughts.

While we may never get a direct public reply from them on this, don't kid yourself and think they are ignoring it by any means. Every interaction I have had with Corporate tells me they are interested in resolving this issue and making sure all their riders are happy with this new sled.

The UNKNOWN VARIABLE in this equation is the RIDER. And i suspect the rider and his THUMB have a HUGE impact on whether belts are blowing or not. Can't prove it, but there are FAR MORE RIDERS not having belt problems than there are those who are blowing belts...

Separating the Rider from any possible mechanical problem is the real challenge here in my humble opinion. And that is NOT an easy thing to do..

sledheadjake · Mar 21, 2017

To say that this issue has to do with the rider is a copout, with my 14 pro I never blew a single belt. My clutches on it never would get hot enough to boil water. I just bought this 850 and I can just ride it on the trail and the clutches are too hot to touch. There is a for sure an issue with their primary clutch tolerances. I just happened to see the post by redline performance and decided to check mine. My stationary sheave on my primary is .027 out of true. Im willing to bet a lot of theses issues we are seeing have to do with this.

Teth-Air · Mar 21, 2017

sledheadjake said:
To say that this issue has to do with the rider is a copout, with my 14 pro I never blew a single belt. My clutches on it never would get hot enough to boil water. I just bought this 850 and I can just ride it on the trail and the clutches are too hot to touch. There is a for sure an issue with their primary clutch tolerances. I just happened to see the post by redline performance and decided to check mine. My stationary sheave on my primary is .027 out of true. Im willing to bet a lot of theses issues we are seeing have to do with this.

You do realize that the Doo faithful are just going to tell you that the reason the Polaris has cool clutches is because the lack of power compared to the Doo. There is no problem, just too much power!

snowryder · Mar 21, 2017

Checked my fixed primary sheave runout. 26 thousands.
Little over 400 miles on sled. Have not exploded a belt but pulled cord at 190 and 390 miles. Changed them before they blew. Black secondary spring and 22grm pinweight. 7900-8000rpm. Clutches and belt always too hot to touch even after just cruising down the road at 40 mph. Tons of engine movement when revved on track stand and can move the engine around by hand pulling on the primary. All engine mounts tight and spacer on front pto mount.

Very frustrated...

sledheadjake · Mar 21, 2017

When I get home today I am going to check the primary movable sheave , then recheck my clutch alignments. When I checked them 2 weeks ago my alignment was just slightly within spec. Not to say that the sheaves are the only issue causing the heat issue, but I know for sure that being that far out of true will cause issues. I will post up what I find when I get home. My dealer has been great trying to help me get this problem resolved, today they opened a case with SkiDoo about this issue with my sled. I will keep you updated with what happens.

Mountain_Man · Mar 21, 2017

sledheadjake said:
It would be awesome if someone that does not blow belts and the clutches are not running extremely hot, if they could run a dial indicator check on their clutch and share the results.

Like I said previously my primary fixed sheave is .027 out of true, and I have eaten 2 belts in 400 miles and the clutches are hot as hell.

I believe it would be safe bet that the clutches that are not eating belts are running true or much closer to true than the one in the opening post. With the exception being maybe if the rider only took it very easy on flat ground with no hard pulls they could squeak quite a few miles out of a belt with bad parts. Another thing is this: there could be significant variation in how bad parts are, going from not too bad to very bad.

That much run out as shown in video would wear and eat belts with out any doubt. The only variable in that would be how hard it was ridden, as easy riding compared to hard would extend the belt life, although it would still be shorter than a true running clutch.

The question I have are this: how many sleds have this problem, and did they leave the factory like this or is it a design defect where it moved from use? I haven't seen the revised parts but have a hunch the "cooling fins" are more like gussets, possibly in combination with an extended bore, which would keep the parts aligned properly. Personally I believe cooling fins would be like peeing on a big fire, not enough to do very much, even if everything was running true.

christopher · Mar 21, 2017

sledheadjake said:
To say that this issue has to do with the rider is a copout, with my 14 pro I never blew a single belt. My clutches on it never would get hot enough to boil water. I just bought this 850 and I can just ride it on the trail and the clutches are too hot to touch. There is a for sure an issue with their primary clutch tolerances. I just happened to see the post by redline performance and decided to check mine. My stationary sheave on my primary is .027 out of true. Im willing to bet a lot of theses issues we are seeing have to do with this.

OK
If that is the case then WHY have I NOT had to change out a single belt on one of my three 850s??

Not on the Trail
Not in the Trees
Not on the Mountain.

If it is a mechanical defect or design flaw, then ALL OF US should be seeing the same problems across the board, and the hard cold reality is, WE ARE NOT.

There IS some manner of Rider Involvement in the equation of why the belts are blowing.

Please don't mistake this for me saying there is absolutely NOTHING going on mechanically, that is NOT what I am saying nor suggesting. But I am saying the one "X" Factor is the rider himself. Are sleds are IDENTICAL for all intents and purposes, but the riders vary wildly...

christopher · Mar 21, 2017

d8grandpa said:
And don't hold your breath thinking you will get any answers from BRP.

Looks like they saw your post Grandpa.

I was just told we WILL have an official corporate reply to this issue "soon".

So now we wait to hear from the mother ship!

no_uh · Mar 21, 2017

christopher said:
OK
If that is the case then WHY have I NOT had to change out a single belt on one of my three 850s??

Not on the Trail
Not in the Trees
Not on the Mountain.

If it is a mechanical defect or design flaw, then ALL OF US should be seeing the same problems across the board, and the hard cold reality is, WE ARE NOT.

There IS some manner of Rider Involvement in the equation of why the belts are blowing.

Please don't mistake this for me saying there is absolutely NOTHING going on mechanically, that is NOT what I am saying nor suggesting. But I am saying the one "X" Factor is the rider himself. Are sleds are IDENTICAL for all intents and purposes, but the riders vary wildly...

There could also be both a major manufacturing defect that only affects certain sleds/clutches on top of a minor (or major) design defect affecting all. And who really cares if riding style is involved? Shouldn't sleds be able to accommodate that to some degree? At this point I think it's fair to assume that these same riders that are having problems wouldn't blow belts equally as quickly on any other current sled.

christopher · Mar 21, 2017

no_uh said:
There could also be both a major manufacturing defect that only affects certain sleds/clutches on top of a minor (or major) design defect affecting all. And who really cares if riding style is involved? Shouldn't sleds be able to accommodate that to some degree? At this point I think it's fair to assume that these same riders that are having problems wouldn't blow belts equally as quickly on any other current sled.

All I am trying to say here, is that from the manufacturer's point of view it can be HARD to isolate the bottom line root cause of a problem that is NOT consistent across the entire fleet of produced vehicles.

if EVERYONE was seeing the same problem it would be EASY to identify and resolve. But because the overwhelming majority of 850 riders are NOT blowing belts it makes it just a bit harder to try and nail down what is causing it.

I am NOT trying to say the riders are at FAULT for blowing the belts. These are MOUNTAIN SLEDS that should work just fine in DEEP SNOW HIGH ANGLE riding conditions. I am saying that there IS something about HOW they are riding that is very likely contributing to the conditions where the failure occurs. From an engineering point of view that just makes it a bear to nail down.

christopher · Mar 21, 2017

Ski-Doo just issued this Bulletin in response to the video we have been discussing in this thread and asked me to post it for everyone to read.

This will add a whole new aspect to our discussion...

christopher · Mar 21, 2017

christopher · Mar 21, 2017

christopher · Mar 21, 2017

Some additional info

freekweet mods · Mar 21, 2017

Might work for vibration but that has got to be hard on belts.

s.e.xtreme · Mar 21, 2017

Ive been staying out of this and just reading. Im one with belt issues and have been doing everything possible to reduce heat. Ive had 12 skidoos since 99' and this is by far the worst on belts. All the others Ive been able to clutch until they run cool and stop burning belts. I have a 15' Polaris pro still as my pack up and it doesn't burn belts. I ride it and all the rest in the same manner. I wish we could pin point our issues for us guys with the problem. Ive spent some coin on vents, adjustable ramps, blowhole, springs. Ive also switched to gates carbon because they are half price. Ive been lucky with that belt it has made it two days so far!

K45 · Mar 21, 2017

christopher said:
OK
If that is the case then WHY have I NOT had to change out a single belt on one of my three 850s??

Not on the Trail
Not in the Trees
Not on the Mountain.

If it is a mechanical defect or design flaw, then ALL OF US should be seeing the same problems across the board, and the hard cold reality is, WE ARE NOT.

There IS some manner of Rider Involvement in the equation of why the belts are blowing.

Please don't mistake this for me saying there is absolutely NOTHING going on mechanically, that is NOT what I am saying nor suggesting. But I am saying the one "X" Factor is the rider himself. Are sleds are IDENTICAL for all intents and purposes, but the riders vary wildly...

#1 - The majority of riders rip around stop, shoot the **** go for a few pulls, stop bull **** some more ride around, go to the cabin - not blowing belts.Oddly enough brag their sled is better on fuel and oil than everyone else.

#2 - Then there are the guys that ride to the bar for long periods of time, make that sled work hard. Not much for shooting the ****, out to ride and ride hard - hard on belts, oddly enough burn more fuel and oil.

I believe most are not willing to admit that they fall into category #1. But the issue is that the category #2 guys were not blowing nearly as many belts with the 800 as they are now with the 850

And running into **** and wrecking your sled does not by any means make anyone a category #2 rider

salmonbum · Mar 21, 2017

GThe BRP info makes sense, but maybe only at idle. I can't see this helping at 8000 rpm. Agian, BRP solving problems that are minor(vibration) that causes a major one (blow belts). They made similar announcement wit the QRS fixed secondary release in the XP saying it gave more performance. That gain was very minimal at a large cost of belts. Anyone who has floated the secondary will tell you the performance was the same and you didn't go thru belts.

It took doo 5 yrs to get the xp (summit only) to keep a belt. They never came out ann announced it, but in 2012 the secondary shaft got longer by 3mm as well better clutch calibration.

I have rode the 850 and it's a fun sled. I want to snowcheck an 18, but it's very hard to get rid of a 14 XM I have never even pulled a cored. Ski doo will have to give me better answers that solve this solution. The Description above tells me about the 2017 and we know many are having belt issues. Bottom line give us a list of improvements that will actually solve the issue rather than couple of band aides..... clutch fins and a thicker belt. I wonder if BRP engineering has had a turnover of the older, experienced guys that have been replaced by 20 somethings that think they know everything and based decisions on FEA output.

Mountain_Man · Mar 21, 2017

christopher said:
OK
If that is the case then WHY have I NOT had to change out a single belt on one of my three 850s??

Not on the Trail
Not in the Trees
Not on the Mountain.

If it is a mechanical defect or design flaw, then ALL OF US should be seeing the same problems across the board, and the hard cold reality is, WE ARE NOT.

There IS some manner of Rider Involvement in the equation of why the belts are blowing.

Please don't mistake this for me saying there is absolutely NOTHING going on mechanically, that is NOT what I am saying nor suggesting. But I am saying the one "X" Factor is the rider himself. Are sleds are IDENTICAL for all intents and purposes, but the riders vary wildly...

Christopher, having been involved in international level manufacturing for 26 years I will offer my opinion. While it might seem that all products in a line are identical, there are occasional designs that are finicky about tolerances and operating parameters and in my opinion that can be considered a form of design flaw.

I read the information you posted from Ski Doo and I see the principles of what they have done. There can be no argument there are a lot of smart and capable people employed by them. While the actual problems people are having might be from other reasons, I suspect this new idea is somehow at the root of the issue. New ideas sometimes take time to perfect, or issues pop up that were not found in testing.

The sleds might vary more than you realize, it’s actually much harder ($$$$) to produce parts that are truly identical than you think. Sometime it doesn’t matter, sometimes it matters only a little, sometimes it matters a lot. In this case the technology might not be ready for prime time. Maybe I’m wrong and there are other issues instead. In any case, developing new technology and perfecting it takes time, it were easy to nail it every time we would have been riding much better sleds like these decades ago.

In conclusion I have little problem believing that sometimes issues are more design and/or manufacturing issues than operator issues, and of course some designs just won’t hold up to some types of use or abuse. It can work either way, depending of course.
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Machine shop may have found the belt problems

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