M1000PGT or M8PGT

[knuts82]

Does anyone have seat time on a 1000 pumpgas turbo and how do they compare to the 800pg turbo. Thinking about the new boondocker kit on the 1000 but want some more input. Thanks

 

[Jammmin]

You will spend an extra 300 per year for race gas and wont have to kick your self in the behind for not doing it.

Its worth it.

 

[deviant]

My PG 800 at 10lbs boost runs the same as a 1000 with 5-6lbs boost
The power is probably about the same but the 1000 feels like there is a bag of sac-crete on the hood.
M8 has a Det sensor and will warn you and fix things for you if you go a little lean. And its easier to tune.

 

[triple7]

Not a Cat guy but I sure love the feel of a boosted 800. Pure fun.

But nothing will make the power boost for boost of a 1000...except big bored version!!

Just a matter of what kind of feel you are looking for.

Jake

 

[backcountryislife]

Replace the P with an R & you'll be stoked.

Keep in mind that just because it's a race gas kit doesn't mean it's got to run 100%, we run 2-3 gal per tank & it's unreal, when we turn it down to pump gas levels though it's BOOOOORING!!
I'll never run a turbo with under 9 lbs. Waste of a turbo in my opinion.

I'd stick to the 8 just because of the bomber motor & the det sensor. I wish the 1000 had a det sensor.

 

[Dunatic]

I had a pump gas Twisted 07 M1000 all last season, absolute blast to ride!! It is still heavy though, I sold it and will be buying an M8 shortly, and it is getting Twisted!

 

[RKT]

A turbo at 10psi boost and higher is hard to beat at any elevation..But this amount of boost will require 100 octane MIN.. So, NOT a pump-gas kit by any stretch..

In my opinion, if you are going to run a turbo, crank the boost and run the sweet smelling fuel...

I have seen and rode both and the PGM1000 runs much stronger, everywhere, than the PGM800...


BTW, Turbos, lose the same or even a tad more HP at elevation than the N/A sled.. What a turbo can do is compensate for this loss via boost... But ANY turbo sled at 10,000ft does NOT have Sea Level HP PLUS BOOST power.. It HAS 10,000ft POWER PLUS BOOST Power.. BIG DIFFERENCE!! so, having said all that.. there is no 800cc turbo making 200+ HP at 10,000ft on ANYTHING UNDER 10PSI (more like 12-14PSI to get 200HP at 10,000ft)

Kelsey

 

[Radski30]

A turbo at 10psi boost and higher is hard to beat with any N/A sled at any elevation..But this amount of boost will require 100 octane MIN.. So, NOT a pump-gas kit by any stretch..

An 800 cc class turbo running 9PSI or under can be matched with a good running Big Bore on pump gas....

So, the choice really boils down to how much you want to spend on fuel. for us, we ride 3000+ miles a season.. race gas would cost upwards of $5500 of fuel per season , per sled. so, it is not economically feasible..

In my opinion, if you are going to run a turbo, crank the boost and run the sweet smelling fuel...

BTW, Turbos, lose the same or even a tad more HP at elevation than the N/A sled.. What a turbo can do is compensate for this loss via boost... But ANY turbo sled at 10,000ft does NOT have Sea Level HP PLUS BOOST power.. It HAS 10,000ft POWER PLUS BOOST Power.. BIG DIFFERENCE!! so, having said all that.. there is no 800cc turbo making 200+ HP at 10,000ft on ANYTHING UNDER 10PSI (more like 12-14PSI to get 200HP at 10,000ft)

Kelsey

Finally, the real facts come out about boost and horsepower. Kelsey you are right on when you said

"But ANY turbo sled at 10,000ft does NOT have Sea Level HP PLUS BOOST power.. It HAS 10,000ft POWER PLUS BOOST Power"

I have read numerous attempts by some on the forums that say they can gain 85 HP on pump gas with a M1000 Turbo @ 4.5 LBS of boost. (Dynoed @ 5500 ft in UT)
I can't believe it. I would assume more like 10-12 LBS to get there...

Thanks for making that much more clear.

 

[knuts82]

I understand that you lose power with elevation no matter what kind of power adder you have ect. ect, just wondering if a M1000 turbo on pump gas with a little race mixed in to be safe really has anymore seat of the pants power than a M8pgt at 6,000-10,000. Not looking for 300hp at 6psi not going to happen.

 

[Dunatic]

Having ridden both on pump gas at the same psi, YES! the 1000 does have more seat of the pants power than the 800.

 

[product tester]

Finally, the real facts come out about boost and horsepower. Kelsey you are right on when you said

"But ANY turbo sled at 10,000ft does NOT have Sea Level HP PLUS BOOST power.. It HAS 10,000ft POWER PLUS BOOST Power"

I have read numerous attempts by some on the forums that say they can gain 85 HP on pump gas with a M1000 Turbo @ 4.5 LBS of boost. (Dynoed @ 5500 ft in UT)
I can't believe it. I would assume more like 10-12 LBS to get there...

Thanks for making that much more clear.

You almost quoted it right. m 1000 pg turbo at 4300 ft elevation gained 85 hp 4.5 #s of boost . that is with out any corrections.

 

[CBX]

A turbo at 10psi boost and higher is hard to beat with any N/A sled at any elevation..But this amount of boost will require 100 octane MIN.. So, NOT a pump-gas kit by any stretch..

An 800 cc class turbo running 9PSI or under can be matched with a good running Big Bore on pump gas....

So, the choice really boils down to how much you want to spend on fuel. for us, we ride 3000+ miles a season.. race gas would cost upwards of $5500 of fuel per season , per sled. so, it is not economically feasible..

In my opinion, if you are going to run a turbo, crank the boost and run the sweet smelling fuel...

BTW, Turbos, lose the same or even a tad more HP at elevation than the N/A sled.. What a turbo can do is compensate for this loss via boost... But ANY turbo sled at 10,000ft does NOT have Sea Level HP PLUS BOOST power.. It HAS 10,000ft POWER PLUS BOOST Power.. BIG DIFFERENCE!! so, having said all that.. there is no 800cc turbo making 200+ HP at 10,000ft on ANYTHING UNDER 10PSI (more like 12-14PSI to get 200HP at 10,000ft)

Kelsey

Are you trying to imply that Force inducted systems are less effiecent? What part of more lbs of air per second or minute or which ever measurement is chosen makes it produce less instead of more hp per given engine displacement? The effect is even more pronounced at elevation, not less. how can that make a turbo sled have less power or greater loss at elevation than a N/A sled?

If anyone cans show info that contradicts my statement, i would be very interested to see it.

Arcticle from wikipedia.org "turbocharging"

Altitude effects
A turbocharger remedies this problem by compressing the air back to sea-level pressures; or even much higher; in order to produce rated power at high altitude. Since the size of the turbocharger is chosen to produce a given amount of pressure at high altitude, the turbocharger is over-sized for low altitude. The speed of the turbocharger is controlled by a wastegate. Early systems used a fixed wastegate, resulting in a turbocharger that functioned much like a supercharger. Later systems utilized an adjustable wastegate, controlled either manually by the pilot or by an automatic hydraulic or electric system. When the aircraft is at low altitude the wastegate is usually fully open, venting all the exhaust gases overboard. As the aircraft climbs and the air density drops, the wastegate must continually close in small increments to maintain full power. The altitude at which the wastegate is full closed and the engine is still producing full rated power is known as the critical altitude. When the aircraft climbs above the critical altitude, engine power output will decrease as altitude increases just as it would in a naturally-aspirated engine.

 

[h2otoyz]

jello... tree... insert nail.

 

[Vertical-Extreme]

Kelsey I respect that you are a smart guy and you def. know what you are talking about, but why does every theard have to turn into N/A vs Boost, the guy asked about a M1000 vs a M8..... it is getting old

 

[JHG]

It seems like it would be easier to just start building and selling turbos and turbo components, rather than try to convince turbo owners and potential turbo customers that their sleds are easily beat by a big bore.

Just a thought. Now back to beating the dead horse.

 

[knuts82]

Yeah like I said just looking for some input from someone with seat time on both to get some real world info not a I have more power blah blah blah thing... If i wanted a ported big bore i would not have got ride of mine.

 

[RKT]

Kelsey I respect that you are a smart guy and you def. know what you are talking about, but why does every theard have to turn into N/A vs Boost, the guy asked about a M1000 vs a M8..... it is getting old

Ya know... Maybe I do not communicate via typing as best I can..

AND MAYBE, you guys are looking for hidden meanings in my posts..

Who knows..

But the original question was this:

Does anyone have seat time on a 1000 pumpgas turbo and how do they compare to the 800pg turbo. Thinking about the new boondocker kit on the 1000 but want some more input. Thanks

What I failed to include, MY BAD, was that the PGM1000 runs MUCH harder then the PG M8.. again . My bad.. I meant to include that but I must have gotten distracted and forgot... I will go back and add this..

He asked for input.. I gave some as did others..

As for me turning it into a N/A vs. Turbo thread,, This was NOT my intent..It seems I did get a bit off topic... I apologize...

 

[knuts82]

Now that last post you made (RKT) is more the kind of info i was looking for thanks

 

[CBX]

How about the rest of the above post ?? Why doyou choose to leave it out just to serve your purpose??


Kinda changes what you are complaining about..right???

If you want to look at engine in one dimensional terms.. then your assessment would be correct.. Meaning.. ALL that matters is the amount of air entering..More air = more power...

But on a 2 STROKE engine the exhaust system is critical to how much power is made and how much power is lost..

Now, if you can consider the fact that the HP made at ANY elevation is equal to the ELEVATION POWER + BOOST POWER then you will get the idea of why the turbo'd engine will lose more power when not under boost thanthe stock engine.

The installation of the turbo makes the exhaust system less efficient and less effective. This is a fact. SURE,you over-come this deficiency when spooled up but remember...HP made at ANY elevation is equal to the ELEVATION POWER + BOOST POWER.For example.. Take a sled and install turbo system on it but have the turbo so it can not spool.. so, basically you have a system that will not build boost.. essentially a N/A set-up with turbo components.. Now go dyno that engine.. It WILL make less power than the stock system. So, it stands to reason that the baseline power of the engine will be LESS than the stock engine due to the turbo components upsetting the pipe effects in a negative manner..

So, now you will ask: "Why are we talking about no boost pressure?" Simple.. Again... It all relates to the baseline HP of the engine.. and since the pipe has been altered in a negative way for power then this baseline HP is less.
Again, you will overcome this eventually under boost but the baseline is still the baseline.. and the turbo and its intake system does not do the sled any favors when not under boost.. Why do you think it takes the engine so much boost to make big power?? It has some other added restrictions to overcome..

So, rather than just looking at trying to find fault with anybody's statements/logi...., it may be wiser to think about the system as a whole vs. just the turboing effects.. and if you do the dyno test I suggested , you will see that results...

Kelsey

I quoted your whole post kelsey. I highlighted the parts the needed to be emphazied on in my first post and this post. I think everyone can agree that a turboed sled wont make any boost or hp idleing, or until spooled up. The same statement can me made for an N/A engine.

They dont make power either till ya spool them up too, right?

The analogy of parasitic loss due to the turbo is a poor one. Does it take HP to drive the compressor. sure. But to say install the turbo and dont hook up the charge tube?

I would suggest if one is going to argue that turbo's are a poor choice, efficency isnt the arguement to use. Any combustion or reaction engine is an air pump. Only one that doesnt apply is solid/liquid rockets.

Pretty simple. Its all physics. I'm not complaining here Kelsey. Just throwing out the flag on mis-information. Turbos increase effeciency. Not the other way around.

 

[RKT]

I quoted your whole post kelsey. I highlighted the parts the needed to be emphazied on in my first post and this post. I think everyone can agree that a turboed sled wont make any boost or hp idleing, or until spooled up. The same statement can me made for an N/A engine.

They dont make power either till ya spool them up too, right?

The analogy of parasitic loss due to the turbo is a poor one. Does it take HP to drive the compressor. sure. But to say install the turbo and dont hook up the charge tube?

I would suggest if one is going to argue that turbo's are a poor choice, efficency isnt the arguement to use. Any combustion or reaction engine is an air pump. Only one that doesnt apply is solid/liquid rockets.

Pretty simple. Its all physics. I'm not complaining here Kelsey. Just throwing out the flag on mis-information. Turbos increase effeciency. Not the other way around.

Tell ya what,,

You want to discuss this in detail.. Feel free to start another thread or call my number..

No need to hijack this guy's thread anymore than BOTH of us have already done..

Bottom line..ANY Turbo installation lessens the BASELINE power of the 2 stroke engine when compared to the stock exhaust and intake system.. This is a fact.. But with boost, you can over-come this ...Also a fact..


BASELINE power is what I am talking about (and, yes, it was off topic.. again.. my bad)... NOT Boosted power...

If BASELINE power had ZERO to do with the turbo power, then ALL turbos charged engines would make the SAME HP on the same BOOST.. Right??
We ALL know this is not the case

So, ask yourself why some 800's make more power than others on the same boost with the SAME turbo system?? Answer: BASELINE power is different and achievable power is different (which has nothing to do with the turbo system because they are the same).. So, what is it related to?? Answer: Pipe, porting, head --->> Baseline power. Change these, change power...(up or down)

Knuts82.. Sorry for the hijack... I honestly did not do it intentially.. I got side tracked and got the wrong question stuck in my head..

Again.. the PGM10 if you can handle the weight, has better power, but the PGM8 , IMO, is more fun to ride...

Kelsey