KTM 500 vs 300 dilemna

[Misha Subo]

You pro-4T guys are all talking about high elevation mountain terrain. Out east, our 300s work fine in the low altitudes. They're never going to have the lazy torque of the 450s anywhere, but nice and light and simple, start well, turn better, no valves.

My bottom line: 2T for the light guys at low altitudes that want one bike for year round use (if you ride tight, extreme summer terrain - FLINGABILITY!). Before some of you snap back, remember, it's not about the dough. It's about simplicity and reducing the stable down to a manageable inventory.

 

[-unsound]

I have a 500 EXC with a camso on it in the winter, and use it for trails/dirt in the summer. For an all round bike I think the ktm 500s are hard to beat. Only bike i would trade it for on the snow would be a 450 MXer for better overrev power and the gearing.

Admittedly I have never ridden a 2 stroke snowbike but have owned them before on the dirt. 2 strokes are lots of fun on the dirt but anything that requires torque I would choose a 4 stroke all day. For example, last year i did a few pulls up chokecherry/devils dune in st anthony against CR500s (albeit mild ones) and was not impressed by them, I won everytime.

Probably about 50 hours on the bike, nothing but oil changes. All valves still in spec, but the 500 is easy to shim anyways

 

[n16ht5]

side by side with a setup 300, and new sxf450 both on yeti kits, the 300 was right next to the 450sxf (with raze) the whole time. shifted more, yes, but the 300 had no issues pinned the whole time vs staying off the rev limiter on the 450. If you set the 300 up right, they go. Im happy on a yz450 but Id have no problem on a 300. The lighter / lower cg bike is so much nicer in the tech

 

[Ben 500RR-S]

I have a 500 EXC with a camso on it in the winter, and use it for trails/dirt in the summer. For an all round bike I think the ktm 500s are hard to beat. Only bike i would trade it for on the snow would be a 450 MXer for better overrev power and the gearing.

Admittedly I have never ridden a 2 stroke snowbike but have owned them before on the dirt. 2 strokes are lots of fun on the dirt but anything that requires torque I would choose a 4 stroke all day. For example, last year i did a few pulls up chokecherry/devils dune in st anthony against CR500s (albeit mild ones) and was not impressed by them, I won everytime.

Probably about 50 hours on the bike, nothing but oil changes. All valves still in spec, but the 500 is easy to shim anyways

Wow, you ran your 500 EXC against CR500R's and bet them? I'm impressed by that.

Until 2009 I had both an 85 and a 96 CR500R. Me and my buddy would race them against each other and no matter how I would gear the 85, the 96 would win pretty easily as the gearbox of the 85 was so close that by the time it got into top gear the 96 would be walking away or running away.

I would race my buddy on his 2001 KX500 and I would have him until top gear and after being in top gear the KX would leave me behind.

I would race my buddy on his 380 EXC and beat him up and down.

Now, with my Beta and its 478cc 4S, my buddy on his 380 EXC still has no chance as the 478cc just pulls it no matter what gear we start out in. I've seen dyno's where it is putting out 60-something HP. The torque has to be fat, almost diesel-like though.

It is tough, some love 450-500cc 4S power and need it and need more what with turbo's and all manner of head upgrades. Some, or few, enjoy the 300 2S and with some mods are out there having a grand old time going everywhere and anywhere any other snowbike is going.

Now that I have had a 4S for a year and having spent all last spring, summer and fall on the dirt, then this past winter in the snow, I have the perfect bike for me and won't go back to a 2S until I can't handle a 500 4S anymore.

I have yet to race a 450 on my bike. I ride with a kid who has a KX450F, next chance or time I ride with him we're going to have to line them up.

 

[Jaynelson]

Taking a wild guess here .... but also wondering if some the guys preferring max 4S power have a more extensive sled background. My biggest gripe with snowbikes (all of them) is deep snow power/climbing ability. I want a bike that feels like a bike, but goes like my sled....not gonna happen, I know. I have areas I've been sledding for years and now want to explore the "edges" of the areas more on bikes. Lots of these areas have mandatory climbs to get over multiple ridges to access the "end goal" area. For the climbing, I am yet to see a 2S compare....but have definitely seen them struggle. Maybe none of the guys I've ridden with had the right setup...not sure. That said, any of 4S' on the same ride wouldn't have had any tricky mods...basically stock.

Now, bikes aren't much fun for high marking all day (which I don't do on a sled either)....but when you are trying to get from A to B in steep terrain, it's just part of the game. If a guy is unloading at/near riding altitude and rallying some trees all day....that's a totally different ballgame. Not saying that's what guys are doing....just exploring why we see such a difference of experiences with this time after time.

 

[coryf89]

4 stroke fanboy here. I dont have a sled background and im not a chute climber or wide open player. I ride tight trees and dont seem to have much problems. I will note that my bike is super slow.. only does 80km in 5th. its not a high speed monster. all low end.

I mean hell... our main riding spot, its 10km whooped out trail with a few very minor climbs in it. the final climb is a tad tough at the end when it finally opens up. when its deep, and breaking track, its very tough. makes my BB 450sxf scream and struggle, cutting back hard and downshifting, poaching tracks and getting super desperate towards the top(maybe its my chit maxtrack II)..

that being said, seems like a 2 stroke would hardly make it passed the puny 300' climb that we got before our riding area even starts on deep days. how fun is that? would be so embarrassing going out with sledders and not being able to do the very first hill. ive almost been there!!!! its nice to have the extra power when you need it, than to need it and not have it...

it really all depends on what your riding group is like, what your main riding area is like, and your riding style/skill is like. you can get advice and food for thought from us, but ultimately you know whatll suit you best. we got a lot of deep and steep 20 mins from my house, I race expert in the summer and love exploring stupid hard terrain.. a 2 stroke in the winter simply wont work, but im on a 2 stroke all summer long and refuse to ride 4s in the summer anymore.

 

[madmax]

I tried turning my 12 300xc into a snow bike this season, didn’t like it. I’ve had about every ktm/husky bike as a snow bike over the last 5 years and just not a 2-stroke fan for snow bikes. Think you’ll be much happier with your 500

 

[eric82930]

From what i can see most 4 strokes from the last ten years run at 90 percent of their potential right out of the box. Even the carb trail bikes would run OK. But about half the 2 stokes I see run like crap stock and people don't know how to tune them. They need more than just mindless bolt on accessories to even get to 90 percent of their potential. The last 10 percent is even tougher and even worse in the snow. If you don't know how to tune and you want a 2 stroke a stock 250sx is the only thing I've seen that will put out for you. They really are pretty amazing snow bikes. None of the 300,s run that strong out of the box. Grab a used 250sx for $2500 beat the living snot out of it with no remorse and it will probably be the most fun you could have on the snow.

 

[assaultn]

The opinions you get on this are going to vary greatly on the elevation, area and terrain that people ride. Even the kind of snow that is in different areas plays a factor. Almost all will agree that a decent set up 450/500 will have more power than a well set up 300 with the 300 being lighter and more agile.

While almost all peeps riding bikes play in the trees it is not all the same. Some in our group like ripping through the flatter meadows dipping and diving like a pissed off hornet while I like crawling down through the steep treed areas and drainages and see if I can manage a way back up. Both tree riding but much different. In the flatter areas where you are not straining the bike and agility pays gains the 300 is gonna be a hoot. Put that 300 down in the bottom of a nasty drainage line and you will wish you had the extra hp to give you a little more time to choose lines and pull you through creek drops ect.

Snowbikes are lacking in hp/torque period! Even at low elevation you could always use more. While both bikes lose power at elevation the 450/500 simply has more to give up before not having enough to match the skill of the rider. At 3000' the power output of the 300 combined with the weight advantage may be the weapon of choice. That same rider may realize at 8500' the same bike just dropped below the threshold of power needed to suite their style or ability.

I view the maintenance comparison of a 2t and 4t snowbike as such. In most cases the 4t requires more costly planned preventative maintenance but relatively minimal tuning. 2s preventative maintenance is much cheaper and easier but they may require some tinkering and tuning. The guy that just wants to ride and drop the machine at the shop for valve setting and refreshing is gonna like the 4t. The gear heads that don't mind or enjoy a little tuning aren't going to be as bothered when dialling in the smoker and are definitely going to enjoy saving some cash on the maintenance costs. All comes down to what kind of cat you are.

I actually contemplated building a 300 this year as I thought I may be able to up my technical riding game with a lighter more nimble bike. I was on a sxf450 w/520 the last couple seasons. I ended up building a sxf w/490 with head and cam magic. The thing is a powerhouse and would eat my 520! My technical riding has improved a lot on this bike. The extra hp acts almost as a get out of jail free card sometimes getting me out of jams. It has also allowed me to get into some places and test myself where my old bike simply didn't have the power to get there. The extra power also allows you to ride the steeper areas with more speed. I really saw my riding improve due to this. With more speed available I had to sharpen my reaction and get better at picking lines faster on the fly. After recognizing this it made me come to think that an absolutely talented wizard on a bike may be able to take advantage of the weight savings of the 300 and really make it perform but the average/advanced mountain rider will benefit more having a little extra power from the 4t to pull him through all those times you screw up.

All food for thought.

 

[coryf89]

Interesting how you liked a ported and polished 490 vs a B.B. 520. I am wondering if the track has much play in this argument too. I’ve got a nice bike with no lack of power and I still struggle lots sometimes... could it be due to that chitty maxtrack II?? Really wanting to try the cmx track next year to see if that makes it a different game.

A done up 4 stroke with a track that sucks would probably get outperformed by a plain stock smoker with a good track?

 

[M5-]

The track is everything. If the Camso didn't have the track it has there would be none on the snow, zero. The kit itself is really pretty average at best but the monorail, track and ski make it work.

I rode a KTM 520 for 2 seasons, they have no over rev and they don't like being on the rev limiter. IMO the 520 is a waste of money I would never build another one that's aside from all the problems it gave me. My 450 YZ with the GYTR head and cams is much happier to run on the limiter and makes about the same hp but not the torque hence it's love of RPMs.

I rode with a guy on a KTM 500/610 big bore with a 137 Yeti Maxtrack 2 and handed him his a$$ all day. He's a big dude but my cheap setup ate his 25k bike everywhere. Next week he showed up with a CMX track, different story.

Until we compare apples to apples with kits, bikes and tracks the "My dad can beat up your dad" arguments won't prove anything.

When you run the CMX/Camso style track you don't need to be WFO trying to get track speed. I regularly find myself backing off the throttle a little bit to 3/4 to 7/8 and allowing the track to stop trying to spin and just do its job of moving snow. It just tractors along. Its actually kind of boring. My old 137 TS on the CR500 needs to spin but the 500 has no issue pulling 3rd gear on climbs, once I get moving sometimes I can clutch it onto the pipe in 4th. Its a completely different animal. It will be getting a new track or kit next year.

The 2T makes a great snowbike. If one of the mainstream manufacturers made a 500 balanced 2T I would already have one. The BRC may end up being great but if he goes belly up you are screwed, at least with the Panthera it'll take stock 500 parts.

Another buddy just blew up his second FX at around 180 hours, the first one blew up at 100 hours, he runs 2 bikes as well. Guys who ride a lot need 2 bikes and its only a matter of time before you will be into the engine on your 4T.

NEVER buy a used 4T snowbike.

M5

 

[coryf89]

Ive noticed that WFO full throttle at slow speeds doesn’t help at times either on mine. It just trenches. I experimented one day all the way down to 1/4 throttle and it actually worked better at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle or so range. I had pure traction and bike wasn’t 10,000rpm. Same thing in the summer though. Low rpm = no tire spin= Pure traction. Redline screaming engine rarely helps anyone at low speeds.

I’ve also noticed my maxtrack II with 55 hours on it is missing a metal clip in the track . Perfect excuse to justify buying a new cmx track this summer for next winter ��

 

[assaultn]

Interesting how you liked a ported and polished 490 vs a B.B. 520. I am wondering if the track has much play in this argument too. I’ve got a nice bike with no lack of power and I still struggle lots sometimes... could it be due to that chitty maxtrack II?? Really wanting to try the cmx track next year to see if that makes it a different game.

A done up 4 stroke with a track that sucks would probably get outperformed by a plain stock smoker with a good track?

Both the 490 and 520 are Thumper racing kits but the newer ktm motor is just a better base to start with. I liked my 520 but after 10,000 rpm the motor would sign off. Had to be short shifted and really use the low end torque. It's a good package but doesn't hold a candle to this new build. This thing pretty well pulls 4th everywhere. I've ridden a lot of different bikes with different mod packages and this is the first bike that had an obvious advantage rather than a slight edge on others. I do agree that a good track can help leaps and bounds but raw hp is up there as well. A 3" camso style track is currently being tested. I was gonna put a CMX on but will definitely be waiting for that. Cheers

 

[rhino89523]

I love my 500, being a heavier guy at about 265lbs right now (I'm not a total fat ***, I was a college football player as a lineman I'm 240 when I'm skinny with zero shame in my game with my shirt off) and I can't imagine being on anything else. I ride with a buddy on a KTM bored out or whatever to a 6 oh something on a Yeti 137 and my 500 with a TS 137under load still eats it. On the trail my bike sucks, no 5th gear and I don't feel like twisting it to the locks the whole time so I cruise and it's not all that fast his bike is better on trails, lake beds it's a toss up, if his bike has the power to pull 6th because of snow...he wins. If his bike can't pull 6th because it's deep the 500 runs on it.

My bike on maintenance is pretty much drop the quart of tractor hydraulic out of the case when finished, add a quart when ready. Its not that sensitive to jetting..our conditions are usually pretty similar week to week, storm to storm. We go from around 7000 to just under 12ish..it handles it well, especially because you are wide open often. I'm on my second year with this top end, just had the reed block out and the piston and bore look great. 500's crack the skirt on the intake side if it's going to go, mine doesn't even show wear yet...I'm going another year on it at least. Rebuilds are about $250 with machine work and gaskets and anyone that can put together IKEA furniture can easily handle the job. I really don't mess with jetting that much...I deal with the maintenance on the track more than the bike. I have ridden my buddies KTM, it's O.K. but it doesn't explode like my 500 when you need it to get some...my bike pulls 3rd easy on most climbs...It has decent torque for putting around in really tight trees too...for me it's perfect.

I think the 4 stroke is maybe easier to ride, the gear stacking and area of usable power is wider, the 2 stroke takes more rowing through the gears if you want it to be sitting in the meat of the power but the power explodes and the thing pulls hard.

I ride 500's for everything. I have an AF for singletracking and another just for sand. The things can be beat on flat ground, it's tough to sometimes get the power to the ground and you have to hit your shifts just right, my buddies always want to drag race me and when they win you would think they were the quarterback on the winning superbowl team. If you put the bikes under a heavy load like a sand dune, deep wash, snow...it's not a contest.

All my friends ride KTM's or Husky's. most have multiple bikes for different situations. All have their HP claims. I always get crap for my Dinosaurs, I always dish the crap back by saying those Austrians measure HP with little mini horses. Ride what works for you.

As said before, you being a bigger guy I do not think you will be happy with a 300.

The supercross 2 stroke argument is silly, that move was all politics.

The 2 strokes don't belong on snow makes perfect sense though, if two strokes were any good in the snow you would think they would make a 2 stroke snowmobile that was fuel injected and made great power to weight...and it seems 4 strokes rule the snowmobile world.

 

[Teth-Air]

Not sure about a snow bike but even as a wheeled bike the torque of my 500 is so much fun. Switched a guy with a 300 for a ride and while hp seemed okay, engine braking sucked and had to gear down way more to do the same things. He got off my bike saying his next bike will be a 500 for sure. No replacement for displacement.

 

[Robster]

...

Snowbikes are lacking in hp/torque period! Even at low elevation you could always use more.

Right...

https://www.facebook.com/david.ohlu...44321/10155018367136901/?type=2&theater&ifg=1

Sleds are in open 1000 class and at least one has a Bikeman performance triple. No stock engines in the sleds.

... or perhaps due to not tried the swedish full power bikes with Tedesled kits. I have seen them hang with us on 500 exc and 300 exc and there is no place we can go where they cannot. But there are quite a few places where they can go with the Gixxer Tedesleds where no one else can go. Sled or snowbike. Just sayin and not meant to be bashing..