Keep this in mind regarding the big 3...........

[Mafesto]

Received this email this morning..........

To All,
Considering the recent news and events regarding the Big 3, and what's at stake for current, and future jobs for millions of people, and the risk of losing technological advances, knowledge, and experience of our manufacturing capabilities.

> For the record...
>
> Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11
>
>
> An interesting commentary...You might find this of interest:
>
>
> 'CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's
> contri butions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and Washington .
>
> The findings are as follows.....
>
> 1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number plus 10
> Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER response team services and office space to displaced government employees.
>
> 2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the sam e number and a fleet of vans, suv's, and trucks.
>
> 3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and victims of the Sept. 11 attack.
>
> 4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the New YorkPolice Dept.
>
> 5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation, funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and victims of the WTC.
>
> 6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.
>
> 7. Audi-Nothing.
>
> 8. BMW-Nothing.>
> 9. Daewoo- Nothing.>
> 10. Fiat-Nothing.>
> 11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in August 2001
>
> 12. Isuzu- Nothing.
>
> 13. Mitsubishi-Nothing..
>
> 14. Nissan-Nothing.>
> 15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the Porsche website.
>
> 16. Subaru- Nothing.>
> 17. Suzuki- Nothing.>
> 18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and August 2001.
> Condolences posted on the website
>
> Whenever the time may be for you to purchase or lease a new vehicle, keep this information in mind. You might want to give more consideration to a car manufactured by an American-owned and/or American based company. Apart from Hyundai and Volkswagen, the foreign car companies contributed nothing
> at all to the citizens of the United States ...
>
> It's OK for these companies to take money out of this country, but it is apparently not acceptable to return some in a time of crisis. I believe we should not forget things like this. Say thank you in a way that gets their attention..

 

[Fosgate]

Heard this morning that local competitor in a GM store said they recieved notice from GM on Wed that GM will no longer be funding floor plans and they need to find alternate funding within 2 weeks. also was stated from the guy that 25 of these letters went out to South Dakota delerships alone. Now dealerships are scrambling to find banks to lend them the cash for their floorplans (inventory). Without it they will fail like so many dealerships accross the country have already.

 

[SAWYER]

It's great that they donate but they still waste millions and millions per year. The american people shouldn't be the ones to pay for their mistakes

 

[Fosgate]

Thing is the media is calling it a bailout. It's not, it's a loan. The auto industry has been good to pay them back. Besides, if we let them fail where are you going to take your vehicle for warranty work if you local dealerships fold? Sure you'll still have garages around but suddenly well all be in a situation like Daewoo owners when they collapsed and no one would warranty them and places no longer made parts for them. If one goes it will cause a ripple effect with suppliers and endanger the other 2. All three go down and how many suppliers will stay open. Suddenly it's hard and expensive to get parts even. It's a bad deal if you look at all the busnesses related to the auto industry. Hope you like European and Jap built cars.

 

[Ridgerat]

I don't like the idea of bailing these guys out either, but it seems like it could be a matter of national security to me.

If the big three close up shop....who can we depend on to manufacture machinery in a war time crisis like they did in WWII?

 

[SNOW JW]

I think they need a whole new biz plan before we give them any money. The big 3 should be leading the way in new advanced high MPG cars and Hydrogen not Yota and Honda meybe they need to all 3 get together and work as somewhat of a team to do this.

I will always buy an American made car or truck as long as they are still around.

 

[Freak]

This will end up being a good thing for American Autos. We have been losing the Auto war for years and times like this call to the forefront the idiots in our govt that are killing these guys. I think they should all declare bankruptcy and restructure. Tell the Unions to F off and renegotiate pensions, eliminate pensions for those who are still capable of working (ie 50yr olds.) Its tuff stuff but its better than going under totally. We need to demand that the govt get off their backs and lower their corporate taxes. Why are bailouts the only thing they talk about? Because the govt wants to keep raping them and controlling them. This country is so screwed up its sickening.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

personally the goverment is going about this all wrong..If they want to bail out the economy they need to start by stopping the money going over seas ...If a country needs are help they need to pay for it with interest..they really want to fix things give all that bail out money to us the people so we can pay our bills(then the companies wont need bailed out)but it has to be more then a token incentive.....and yes the big 3 need to file for reorganization and put the unions in their place..I have no problem with a man earning a retirement for working hard but this crap the unions are holding over the big three is a joke...

 

[truthrider]

I agree with the Freak. I was watching the news the other night and they stated the average hourly wage with benefits included of US auto workers was $77. The average of Japenese workers was $44. they intereviewed a worker and he was whining that he couldn't survive on any thing less. I work at Team Industries, when the company isn't doing well, every one makes financial sacrifices. In the auto industry, they act like they are brain surgeons and no one else could possibly do the work they do. I wouldn't be suprised that if we bail/loan them tons of money, the workers will go on strike because they need more money. Yeah, I don't want to see them lose their jobs, but come on, suck it up, make a car that gets half way decent gas mileage, take a cut in pay and deal with it like the rest of us.

 

[Gaz]

Maf...I think what you are posting is an internet urban myth that is being passed along without really checking into its validity. This is nothing more than pulling on the heartstrings of the American public in an attempt to justify a potentially $34B mistake. Snopes gives much more accurate information regarding automakers contributions after 9/11 here: http://www.snopes.com/rumors/automakers.asp.

It still surprises me how many people are not actually sitting down and thinking about this whole bailout / loan / bad idea.

Thing is the media is calling it a bailout. It's not, it's a loan. The auto industry has been good to pay them back. Besides, if we let them fail where are you going to take your vehicle for warranty work if you local dealerships fold? Sure you'll still have garages around but suddenly well all be in a situation like Daewoo owners when they collapsed and no one would warranty them and places no longer made parts for them. If one goes it will cause a ripple effect with suppliers and endanger the other 2. All three go down and how many suppliers will stay open. Suddenly it's hard and expensive to get parts even. It's a bad deal if you look at all the busnesses related to the auto industry. Hope you like European and Jap built cars.

Technically you are correct; it would be a loan that would in turn be a huge bailout of a poorly ran industry. Another thing that you need to realize is that the bankruptcy they are talking about is not the "board up the windows and lock the doors" kind of bankruptcy you are thinking of. It's a chapter 11 which is basically is restructuring / reorganization plan that allows them to renegotiate their supplier contracts, labor contracts, and any debt that they have. If by a far chance one of them does go out of business, I guarantee that somebody is going to honor warranties for all those who still have them. Also, suppliers may be affected by this but basic economics shows that there will still be a demand for automobiles in the US and although the demand may be decreasing year over year, there is still 12 million new cars projected to be sold in 2009. Whether they are jap, european, or domestic, they consumer is going to buy them and therefore there will be demand for parts that the suppliers provide. It's a changing market place and everyone from the big 3 to the suppliers needs to adapt. If we allow the gov't to bail out the automakers, who's next in line? Homebuilders? Gas stations? Grocery stores? Where does it stop?

This will end up being a good thing for American Autos. We have been losing the Auto war for years and times like this call to the forefront the idiots in our govt that are killing these guys. I think they should all declare bankruptcy and restructure. Tell the Unions to F off and renegotiate pensions, eliminate pensions for those who are still capable of working (ie 50yr olds.) Its tuff stuff but its better than going under totally. We need to demand that the govt get off their backs and lower their corporate taxes. Why are bailouts the only thing they talk about? Because the govt wants to keep raping them and controlling them. This country is so screwed up its sickening.

I agree with all of this but I'm just not sure that the tax cuts will do anything right now. People are holding onto cash right now and I'm not sure that corporate tax cuts will bump consumer spending and cause people to cough up the cash. I could be wrong though.

 

[ruffryder]

ha ha ..... go snopes! Looks like honda and toyota gave similar amounts to the big three...

hmmm makes you think a little bit..

 

[SAWYER]

It suprises me too how many people are thinking about this. Where will it stop?

I've got news for everyone. Times are tough ftor every buisiness right now. not just the big 3. Small buisiness's everywhere are making sacrifices to keep the doors open. So why can't they.

Times get tough and they ask the government for money. Ift this is a sign of times to come in America wwe are in big trouble. Fix the problems yourself. Don't depend on the government to ftix things and make it all better.

What the hell has happened to this country? It makes me sick that huge companies like this can't stand on their own two feet.

Did the bank situation get magically better when they got bailed out? Did they start lending to everyone again? No.

Their is no magic fix for the auto makers. They are going to have to cut out things, restructure, cut alaries and bonuses and completely rethink how they produce autoobiles.

Who's gonna bail the us citizens out when our taxes are so high from bailing everyone else out that we can't aftford to live? Not the government.

It all boils down to "It's called buisiness". You go through good times and bad. You reap the benefits ftrom the good and learn how to adjust to the bad or you sink. And if they can't figure out to adjust then let them sink.

I hate to see anyone lose their job but the mismanagement of the auto makers over the last 20 years is not the fault of all of us.

 

[Gaz]

One more thing:

If the big three close up shop....who can we depend on to manufacture machinery in a war time crisis like they did in WWII?

I'm not going to say that the government will never ask the domestic manufacturers to do this again but the chance is highly unlikely. Simply due to the fact that we have so many government contractors who are already doing this right now (Boeing, Northrup, Lockheed, Raytheon, etc). The list of government contractors covers nearly any business sector you can think of. These contractors weren't around in the 40's when we were involved in WWII. Again, this is an emotional argument to justify a bad decision.

 

[ruffryder]

What the hell has happened to this country? It makes me sick that huge companies like this can't stand on their own two feet.

One word, capitalism..

The drive to make money, and lots of it, is of highest priority.. Long term stability of a company is not important, increasing stock prices, and short term gains are what is.

It is not that they can't stand on their feet. Just that they can make more money by not trying to....

My random thoughts on the subject..

 

[ruffryder]

One more thing:



I'm not going to say that the government will never ask the domestic manufacturers to do this again but the chance is highly unlikely. Simply due to the fact that we have so many government contractors who are already doing this right now (Boeing, Northrup, Lockheed, Raytheon, etc). The list of government contractors covers nearly any business sector you can think of. Again, this is an emotional argument to justify a bad decision.

Somewhat..... though like oil is a national security measure, so might automobiles one day if none are made here in the US. Though, I doubt that will ever happen. The other thing is that the era of large scale wars is over. We don't all line up on opposite sides and attack anymore, technology has changed that game. So the need to build massive amounts of equipment is then reduced..

 

[Mafesto]

Maf...I think what you are posting is an internet urban myth that is being passed along without really checking into its validity. Snopes gives much more accurate information regarding automakers contributions after 9/11 here: http://www.snopes.com/rumors/automakers.asp.

Looks like you are correct.
My bad.

 

[Fosgate]

I for one did not agree with the 700b bailout of the investors. If anything take the money and help people keep their homes. The people are what spend money and keep business thriving. We bail out rich investors of those markets instead still leaving the people out of their houses. Don't get me wrong I have several friends and relatives that got into their house with less than $2k down thanks to the Clinton Administration. But I think leave the investors to hang just like every one of us would if we lost money on the market is the way to go. Fine, tighten credit to the way it was in the 80's where you had to have $30% + down (not this $0 down Bull#$%). It would do 2 things. One, would be to push people to really educate themselves on how credit works and proper budgeting, borrowing debt to income. (anyone know of a high school that teaches either?). And 2, Lenders would actually lend responsibly again and help people from making bad decisions rather than focusing on commissions from closing deals and pulling people in to making bad decisions based on emotional attachment. Example, my brother got approved to buy over a quarter million dollar house based on his credit and the banker would actually allow a $2000 house payment on a $50,000 annual gross salary. Do the math on taxes, healthcare, utilities, etc...ARE YOU FREAKING HIGH! Maybe it would be best to let the big 3 restructure. But do not let them leave there obligation to their pension holders. Those people were given a promise and by fleasing the retirees should not be allowed or it opens the door for all of us to get hosed. But it will probably happen anyway one way or another (GM already did it once).

 

[swampwater]

Once again you are wrong, capitalism is the free market operating and letting the consumer making the decisions that make a company succeed. Capitalism is not companies forced to build vehicles people do not want (HYBRIDS), capitalism is not companies being forced to hire according to dictates of the government (discrimination in hireing), capitalism is not haveing the government dictating engineering ( cafe standards) Capitalism is not the government tax code being massaged to decide which companies will succed, capitalism is not the companies engineering standards being dictated by a government applying bogus global warming standards, capitalism is not quasi private/government companies(bailouts). Capitalism is the free market and the operative word is "FREE". Capitalism is the big three going bankrupt, reorganizing to become profitable again. They will not go away they will shed the rediculous costs that are bleeding them. You might be surprised how many airlines you are flying on that are in bankruptcy at this time. And I don't own a vehicle without a bowtie on it. Swampy

One word, capitalism..

The drive to make money, and lots of it, is of highest priority.. Long term stability of a company is not important, increasing stock prices, and short term gains are what is.

It is not that they can't stand on their feet. Just that they can make more money by not trying to....

My random thoughts on the subject..

 

[MARV1]

Cut the employees', CEO's, and board's pay, cut the dividends and bonuses paid and you'll have a company that can support itself in bad times. Greed gets the best out of any company and individual.

 

[ruffryder]

Once again you are wrong,

capitalism is..
using the cheapest labor possible to do the work (illegals)
dissolving retirement accounts due to company mismanagement
manipulation of markets for financial advantage
creating monopolies to control price and influence demand
raping the land for short term benefits, passing the long term costs to the people
taking profits from the land and distributing them elsewhere and wasting them.
lacking foresight and responsibility for future long term goals and sustainability

unfortunately
capitalism is... the easiest and efficient means of allowing people to make financial decisions.... if only the price took into account all ancillary costs....

government is... needed due to the public not having the social wherewithal to decide and choose correclty in the capitalist market