JUST CAME FROM OKANOGAN WINTER REC MEETING , SNOWMOBILE SIDE

[JETJOHNSO]

Well not trying to be the bearer of bad news but things do not look good for next year, set aside the problem with the folks in olympia trying to "sweep" our snowmobile money into the general fund, but with registrations down, higher cost of grooming ect. we might have to take another 12% cut out of our grooming next season. It's just the cold hard facts, we just dont take in enough money to support our grooming program like we used to. We need to raise our license fee's and pay for a snow park permit instead of getting them for free,. We have gotten away with a cheep license fee of $ 30 for to long. WE NEED TO PAY MORE. Every thing we buy and do in life has increased. This year we took a 19% cut in our program, now another 12%. And to those of you who say olympia will get it, not trure, We have dedicated funds directly from our license fee's and gas tax. It's just not enuff any more. State parks sent out 16,600 survey cards, as of yesterday they only had 1643 people take the surveys and I can tell you by the repsonses I've read, there are so many of you that have no clue how are system works it's pathetic. I'm not "bashing " on anyone just the average snowmobiler in washington doesnt get it. NOBODY "STEALS" OUR MONEY, We spend what we ourselfs bring in. I for one will be the first person to tell you that if our snowmobile money does get swept, NONE OF US WILL LICENSE OUR SLEDS NEXT year and we'll see what Olympia thinks about that. You have to trust me on this, I've been involved in the winter motorized program for almost 20 years, I fight and stand up for us as a group year round, please tell everyone you know to take the survey and up our license fee's at least $ 20 to 30 buciks a sled and lets pay for a snowpark permit . any questions please let me know, I'm not a rich guy by anymeans but I will pay more to keep area's open, trails groomed, snoparks cleared, ect. it's my passion and I want to see it expand, not go away, Ok, I'll get off my soap boxs, but one thing is for sure, this is really serious right now.
thanks dan

 

[nikeholley]

Seems fair...

.

Well put...

I agree with you...

Nike

.

 

[Lake Cle Elum]

For those that are uninformed, Dan works hundreds of hours each year for all of us.......He's right on the money........In my Survey, I advocate $50 to register each sled and include the Sno-Park permit as they do now.......

Spend 5 minutes and send in your opinion today........

 

[94fordguy]

Keep in mind that In Revelstoke (at leas the last time I was there) it is $20 per person PER DAY to ride!!!!!!!!! We have it CHEAP compared to there folks

 

[STAFFORDIRT]

Totally agree, we need to pay more to keep this alive- What do we need to do to help?

Thank You Dan- You are an excellent guy-keep it up

 

[ripalip2]

I have done the survey online and don't mind paying a little more to register my selds or pay for a sno-park permit but I would hate to pay more just to have the wash. state goverment sweep the account, everybody please write the legislators in olympia to save our grooming and plowing

 

[tar]

I would pay more, but the way the state works, the money just gets filtered out and watered down before it gets to the snow. There are to many people running the program and pulling a pay check.
If our funds are swept, I will not register my sleds.
If I get a new sled I will not register it, or pay the sales tax!
The state will lose big if they swep our funds.

I think we should scrap the grooming program as it is, send all the people who run it to the uneployment line.
I would support a program like Canada, pay at the snowpark to ride, this way more money would get to the snow and the state has no control of our grooming.

Tar

 

[xpspenziv]

I would pay more, but the way the state works, the money just gets filtered out and watered down before it gets to the snow. There are to many people running the program and pulling a pay check.
If our funds are swept, I will not register my sleds.
If I get a new sled I will not register it, or pay the sales tax!
The state will lose big if they swep our funds.

I think we should scrap the grooming program as it is, send all the people who run it to the uneployment line.
I would support a program like Canada, pay at the snowpark to ride, this way more money would get to the snow and the state has no control of our grooming.

Tar

If you send them to the unemployment line who is gonna collect the money you are willing to pay at the snopark???? You need to stop going across the street its making your brain have this mind altering smokey haze.

Thanks for the info and heads up Dan.

 

[saymoe]

Thank you Dan for advocating for all of us with the same passion of sledding. The thought of raising fees to ride is difficult to swallow considering the amount of sales tax revenue generated from the sledding industry; however, I believe it is fair to implement some sort of pay-per-use program similar to how boat launches "charge" for launching small boats at public ramps. Maybe allowing clubs to maintain a pay-per-use as in Canada; maybe a fancy kiosk; maybe whatever works. Non-payment enforceable by John Law in the white and green truck.
We can not change the fact that government is terribly inefficient in all its works. We can propose a hybrid system that gives government its license fees and daily usage fees can go to the parks with higher usage. Such a system would give local clubs a much needed shot of additional money for maintenance of parking lots and grooming of trails.

 

[tar]

If you send them to the unemployment line who is gonna collect the money you are willing to pay at the snopark???? You need to stop going across the street its making your brain have this mind altering smokey haze.


I would be willing to volunteer to spend time in the sno-park collecting fees.
This is my point we can do this as a group. We don't need the state.

What are you willing to do to help save the grooming,

I have ten years in and around the grooming program and understsnd how it works or don't work.

Tar

 

[JETJOHNSO]

You dont get the big picture !!

Tar, if you have been around the grooming program, do you know there are basicall 3 people in state parks ( who actulally get paid year round ) ( and probably another 10 to 15 who do it for free ) who manage our money for the motorized and non motorized programs, ? Our money does not go into some black hole, as I explained early , every dime is accounted for, come to a meeting and you can get the spread sheet, it's all public, and as for charging at the snoparks with a kiosk or club people taking money, ????: you've got to seriously be kidding, We have 101 snoparks in the state of washnington, You expect to put someone at all of them collecting money ?? how much do you think 101 kiosk would cost, ? do they run off batteries or do we have to run power to them, Do you feel safe letting all your club members handling thousands of dollars in cash ? Think this thru, it's just not possible with a state the size of ours and all the snoparks, not bashing on you I promis, but it's just not possible. Also are the club members going to pay the snowplow driver, the sanican people , the land owners that we have to get permission from every year to use their property. Law enforcement to make sure everyone has a registered sled and snopark permit, there is just so much more to the snowmobile program that most people dont think about, It's not just about grooming, you have to get there first !

 

[TNTCOPP]

No offense Dan, but don't discount what Tar is saying so quickly. He is a fixture in the Bellingham area and has in fact done the grooming up there.
Have you ridden in Canada? It works up there, in that if they groom that day - you pay to ride that day. It takes one person collecting money at the entrance. If they don't groom, they don't pay. The person mans the booth (non-powered) the first half of the day basically.

I have the same concerns as posted earlier - in that I would support an increase in registration fees but fear that all of the increase would indeed not go to the snow.

As far getting to the snow, my opinion at GW anyways is the plowing makes the road far worse to drive then better. If they would not plow it down to ice there would be no concerns of getting over the by-pass. I was the first one in a few weeks ago with 2 feet on the road and it was better to drive on then coming out in the afternoon after they plowed it - just makes it slicker.

My .02.

Tar, if you have been around the grooming program, do you know there are basicall 3 people in state parks ( who actulally get paid year round ) ( and probably another 10 to 15 who do it for free ) who manage our money for the motorized and non motorized programs, ? Our money does not go into some black hole, as I explained early , every dime is accounted for, come to a meeting and you can get the spread sheet, it's all public, and as for charging at the snoparks with a kiosk or club people taking money, ????: you've got to seriously be kidding, We have 101 snoparks in the state of washnington, You expect to put someone at all of them collecting money ?? how much do you think 101 kiosk would cost, ? do they run off batteries or do we have to run power to them, Do you feel safe letting all your club members handling thousands of dollars in cash ? Think this thru, it's just not possible with a state the size of ours and all the snoparks, not bashing on you I promis, but it's just not possible. Also are the club members going to pay the snowplow driver, the sanican people , the land owners that we have to get permission from every year to use their property. Law enforcement to make sure everyone has a registered sled and snopark permit, there is just so much more to the snowmobile program that most people dont think about, It's not just about grooming, you have to get there first !

 

[saymoe]

Thank you for the dose of reality-101 snoparks is alot-I now understand the difficulties but still does not seem impossible to charge by the use. If the Canadians can do it-I am sure our American ingenuity can figure a way also.
I am rather naive to the other 100 snoparks-I only ride at Baker and know there is one way up (for the most part)-makes my thoughts of charging per use much easier. How do the boat launches do it? Probably seemed impossible to them also. On any given Friday thru Sunday there are plenty of sledders that would buck up to a trail fee if we were guaranteed additional grooming funds. A club rep at the highest turnaround is not unthinkable as I am ok with trusting people with the money. I would pity the person stealing from a sledder-I think things would take care of itself.

 

[Cheeze]

It's hard to swallow raising the registration fees I agree but its the easiest all the money is accounted it's public records and every thing we buy has raised it's price since I started riding in 03 so we just need to buck up and pay 45.00 per sled and 15.00 for permit I know that's doubling the price but I do like having plowed roads and a plowed parking lot I would like to see the contractors that do the plowing and grooming be held to a standard tho

Ps if the state sweeps are money away they wont get any money from me

 

[tar]

Tar, if you have been around the grooming program, do you know there are basicall 3 people in state parks ( who actulally get paid year round ) ( and probably another 10 to 15 who do it for free ) who manage our money for the motorized and non motorized programs, ? Our money does not go into some black hole, as I explained early , every dime is accounted for, come to a meeting and you can get the spread sheet, it's all public, and as for charging at the snoparks with a kiosk or club people taking money, ????: you've got to seriously be kidding, We have 101 snoparks in the state of washnington, You expect to put someone at all of them collecting money ?? how much do you think 101 kiosk would cost, ? do they run off batteries or do we have to run power to them, Do you feel safe letting all your club members handling thousands of dollars in cash ? Think this thru, it's just not possible with a state the size of ours and all the snoparks, not bashing on you I promis, but it's just not possible. Also are the club members going to pay the snowplow driver, the sanican people , the land owners that we have to get permission from every year to use their property. Law enforcement to make sure everyone has a registered sled and snopark permit, there is just so much more to the snowmobile program that most people dont think about, It's not just about grooming, you have to get there first !

Dan I see the big picture and it doesn't look good to me. Yes it has been 5 years since I was involved with the program.
Dan do the three people that administrate the program have there pay cut the 19% as our funds were cut?
Do the other priorites in the program get cut at the same rate?
I'm on your team Dan! I'm thinking out side the box. If our friends to the north can make it work so can we.
I think many people will volunteer there time and resources to make this work.
I'm tired of taking what we are given, we can do better.
I thank you for your time and passion for the snowmobile program!

Tar

 

[winter brew]

How does it work in Idaho or Montana?
First we have to change Olympia....until then the whole state is in financial trouble. Does this surprise anyone in this primarily liberal voting state?
Once our funds are not threatened, people will be comfortable paying more (I think?).

 

[tar]

How does it work in Idaho or Montana?
First we have to change Olympia....until then the whole state is in financial trouble. Does this surprise anyone in this primarily liberal voting state?
Once our funds are not threatened, people will be comfortable paying more (I think?).

I agree 100%

Tar

 

[newtrout]

I would support a program like Canada, pay at the snowpark to ride, this way more money would get to the snow and the state has no control of our grooming.

Tar

I've often wondered about this. It would require more organized clubs. Probably a club for each county. Each club would need some initial capital investment for equipment; maybe from lifetime membership dues.

I don't see how it could be 100% self-sufficient, with the exception of Kittitas County that would get strong revenue from Crystal Springs, etc. There would have to be subsidy from local communities/local governments who recognize the economic benefit of the sledding industry.

Dan, do you know what the grooming contractors get for an entire season of grooming out of one snowpark? i.e. is it $20K to groom Gold Creek for a winter? If they only collected on weekends, 80 sleds per weekend at $10 each would give about $13K over a 4 month season. 40 sleds a day is low on a busy day, but maybe a decent average over the whole season? What about the smaller snowparks like Manastash, some of the stuff up the Methow, etc. Would they be sustainable? Subsidized by the bigger ones?

Current registration numbers for the State are like 30K, right? $30 each is $900K. How is this money divided currently? What are statewide operating costs?

Up in Canada, you are looking at $20 per day as a non-member. They collect every day. I believe the clubs own the equipment, but I could be wrong about that. I don't know if the private clubs have the right to deny access to someone who doesn't pay. How would that work here? If someone refuses to pay their $10, can we keep them off of public land? Not likely.

But, imagine warming huts/chalets at most of the riding areas. Paid for by excess fees and sledders donating time, equipment, etc. Pretty cool...

 

[catzr]

Just came from Okan.

How the Revenue is spent, (registration and fuel tax refund)
65% trail grooming
14% snow removal and sanitation, (plowing)
13% administration
5% equipment reserve
3% education and enforcement

 

[Vincenthdfan]

How the Revenue is spent, (registration and fuel tax refund)
65% trail grooming
14% snow removal and sanitation, (plowing)
13% administration
5% equipment reserve
3% education and enforcement

This sounds plenty reasonable, but what about this "revenue sweep" we keep hearing about?

Would our money just be getting utilized to help make up for all the other state deficits?

I would whole heartedly pay for a parking pass, etc...hell I pay to park everywhere I boat & camp in the summer so why not?