JetForce Avalanche Air Bag

[Chadx]

Still seeing ZERO reason I would want to have a battery in my pack, and a setup that deploys much more slowly... all while supporting the people destroying our ability to do the sport which is why we have the bag in the first place.

Some good points, backcountryislife, that folks can consider when making a decision.

Like many have pointed out, my biggest issue with these bags is the stance the manufacturer takes on motorsports. When one looks down the list of anti-motorsports companies, there are so many brands on the list, one can almost not own anything outdoors/backcountry related unless it is specifically from a motorsports company (and they don't seem to make very many tents, skis, hikingpants, etc. Ha.) Definitely a varying degree of anti-motorsports funding and support among them as well; some are worse than others. But that support is definitely something a person should weigh when making a purchase.

Regarding these packs deploying more slowly, that is just not the case. So folks don't get misinformation, please note that the jetforce deploys the same speed or faster than canister packs (and, as mentioned, has one additional pro which is the ability to continue pushing air if needed, such as with a tear, that a canister does not).

fill times:
jetforce - about 2 seconds
BCA - about 2 seconds
ABS - about 3 (and sometimes 4) seconds

If anyone is interested, a quick look at the many available deployment videos online will give a good representation of deployment speeds and also good "walk throughs" on each pack type.

Some people don't like or trust batteries, which is fine. I've always seemed to have good luck with them provided one is treating them right and replacing them at prudent times and, for me, don't see these using a battery as being a con. The pro is you don't pay for a canister refill upon practice deployment; which is a pro shared by the air systems if you have a refill setup like Backcountryislife. Yes, battery replacement down the road is a cost, as is the air refill station or going to a scuba shop or firestation for refills, or paying for nitrogen refills/hazmat fees. All have expenses, including the initial cost of the pack. So much to be calculated if one is interested.

Tons of good info in this thread from everyone. Nice to have many heads thinking through the pros and cons of the various systems so folks can sift through it, helping them compare and contrast on what's right for them.

As has been discussed, the most important aspect is training. Intro classes are free, so start there. But spend the money on an "in the field course" before you spend money on any avy pack. The hands on education of those courses is great and will potentially help you make better calls each day you are out and that might keep you from having to deploy your bag as a last resort.

 

[backcountryislife]

Some good points, backcountryislife, that folks can consider when making a decision.
When one looks down the list of anti-motorsports companies, there are so many brands on the list, one can almost not own anything outdoors/backcountry related unless it is specifically from a motorsports company

Actually, when it really comes down to it... there are a few specific companies to avoid more than any others.

Clif bar
REI
BLACK DIAMOND/ PATAGONIA.
The North Face
Keen


You can make it sound like it's this impossible to avoid list... but these are the main culprits, these are the companies doing exponentially more damage than any other.
Choosing to promote these companies is quite simply choosing to be against our sport.

We have lost 1/2 of the riding areas within 45 min of my house, this isn't some guessing game man... THESE are the companies supporting the scum that can't figure out how to share.

I guess it never hits home until people actually lose their own main riding spot...

And paying 2x what other bags cost to support them... is simply giving them even more money to screw us.

 

[vector boy]

Actually, when it really comes down to it... there are a few specific companies to avoid more than any others.



Clif bar

REI

BLACK DIAMOND/ PATAGONIA.

The North Face

Keen





You can make it sound like it's this impossible to avoid list... but these are the main culprits, these are the companies doing exponentially more damage than any other.

Choosing to promote these companies is quite simply choosing to be against our sport.



We have lost 1/2 of the riding areas within 45 min of my house, this isn't some guessing game man... THESE are the companies supporting the scum that can't figure out how to share.



I guess it never hits home until people actually lose their own main riding spot...



And paying 2x what other bags cost to support them... is simply giving them even more money to screw us.

Another big one not many people realize is Gore Tex. That fancy klim gear everyone has to go out and buy? Yup, you're supporting getting out land closed. There are companies out there that make great products that are half the price as bcil mentioned, and yet are 100% snowmobile oriented. Save money, buy snowmobiler friendly, and use your saved cash to join a club/association.


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[Motogeek33]

Another big one not many people realize is Gore Tex.

Wow, I've never heard that Gore-Tex is associated with anything anti-motorized... do you have a link to that info?

 

[vector boy]

Wow, I've never heard that Gore-Tex is associated with anything anti-motorized... do you have a link to that info?

http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364028

This is one of many threads on this. There's usually 1-2 threads a year on this topic. Do some research on here and online, you'll be surprised how many everyday companies you deal with support closure of our land.

 

[Chadx]

Many companies donate to both. Some are worse than others. It can be pretty confusing. Some companies send mixed messages by donating funds to groups that would close certain areas to motorsports, but still have motorsports lines. Smith Optics is an example.

From one of the many threads:
"Smith Optics is on the list because they support the Colorado Mountain Club who directly supports the Winter Wildlands Alliance. A lot support one group or another but it boils down to support for non-motorized. "

Backcountryislife,
Your sig line indicates you are a seller of Smith Goggles. Any insider info on Smith Optics? They have both MX and snowmobile lines of goggles (I wore various Smith offroad goggles for several decades), but if they donate as noted above, would they not also be a company we should not support? Please pass along any info you have as you seem to have researched this topic more than I and it would be interesting to hear. I can't keep track of all these companys! Yikes.

Gore-tex donates to both. But it seems more a marketing strategy than some inherent, deep rooted company philosophy like some outdoor companies. Gore seems to sell to whoever meets there clothing build criteria and they don't care if that company, or the end user, uses their fabric for motorsports or not. They are a business and sell to make a profit. There are a lot of motorheads in the Goretex company including higher ups. Are they better, worse, or the same as a company that has strict inherent internal philosophies that might directly impact joint use of recreational areas?

It gets pretty convoluted in a hurry with suppliers, subsuppliers, mixed messages by donating to both motorized and non-motorized groups, etc. Like noted in the other threads, lots of the donations are just marketing tactics because they think it will boost their profits. If we just "don't buy", it does nothing because any effect is out of their sight. Writing just one letter (polite and professional; don't rant and play into their stereotype of motorsports riders) would do a heck of a lot more than just not buying something which is invisible to them. A letter and interaction is not invisible. Many that rabidly boycott companies have never communicated with them. Heck, write and tell them how much you like their product (if that is the case) and mention your concerns or ask them for info on company philosophy. That conveys the openness to discussion and your interest in getting facts straight from them rather than them just seeing it as some "hate mail" from someone that has no interest in their product anyway and would not be a potential customer/consumer anyway.

It gets even more conflicting when many of us are hunters and fisherman and the clubs we support donate money, time and effort to maintain habitat for the species we love to hunt and fish, sometimes in direct conflict with our motorsports interests. Same with the manufacturers of all of that gear.

A weighted score would be much more helpful than a simple list. Is a company on a list because they simply are trying to recycle and have green programs or are they on the list because they have explicit non-motorized policies. Some are obvious. Some are not. Some are decisions are hidden because they are just a supplier to another company.

In the end, people often overlook some companies on the lists but not others simply because they just really want the product or they have skin in the game (sell their product or are sponsored).

The other ongoing threads are a great place to discuss that type of thing and get/share info on various companies. I guess I've digressed and should stick to the technical discussion of the jetforce technology in this thread. Sorry.

 

[backcountryislife]

Backcountryislife,
Your sig line indicates you are a seller of Smith Goggles. Any insider info on Smith Optics? They have both MX and snowmobile lines of goggles (I wore various Smith offroad goggles for several decades), but if they donate as noted above, would they not also be a company we should not support? Please pass along any info you have as you seem to have researched this topic more than I and it would be interesting to hear. I can't keep track of all these companys! Yikes.

#1... easy problem, and fixed.
#2... it's easy to say how confusing it is or that ALL these companies do XYZ, but NO other company does as much harm as Black Diamond/ Patagonia do. It's not convoluted or complicated at all when it comes to the worst offenders.

Comparing Smith, Gore-tex, and others to BD, CLif bar and the like is like lumping speeders into the same category as rapists since they're both criminals.

This is an easy one guys... there's nothing complex about it.

 

[Chadx]

Comparing Smith, Gore-tex, and others to BD, CLif bar and the like is like lumping speeders into....

I agree 100% there is a huge spread in various companies involvement and that was my point regarding all the other threads that lump them all together without defining what the company has done to make the list. We are on the same page.

It would be nice if there was some factual, point based or grade based scale that made it easier for all of us to weigh the various levels as that research is just not something the average joe might do. And then the supporting documentation be available. The lists that highlight the "worst offenders" are a start, but multiple teirs even more so. Then at least folks would have the info available rather than trying to dig it up one company at a time. Good info.

And good on you for dropping smith if that is what you want to do. Not that they are a major offender (and honestly, i don't know if they are at all as it was a copy from a single comment from a single thread), but it goes to show how easy it is to not know. If you were selling a product that potentially goes against your standing on the subject, then the average guy that kind of half follows this stuff and is just an average consumer is even less likely to know.

I think we are pretty much saying the same thing here, just the usual read-word interweb stuff. If you're ever up this way, let me know and I'll buy you a beer or two (not from one of the worst offender breweries. Ha.) and we can solve the worlds problems. Ha.

 

[Ryanexcr]

Ok so after following along this thread I am now officially just throwing my arms up and saying screw it. And am going to stick to my original plan that is if it works best then they win and I am buying from them, because I don't want the ****ty one I am sorry but I don't so I am sticking with my JetForce pack along with my Klim gear and probably gonna get some more gear. Why again because it works and I like it.

 

[mnsnowhawk]

Saw this from bca today. You can get high pressure pumps and fill your own tanks. http://backcountryaccess.com/powder-jetsetters-fly-with-your-own-airbag-cylinder-pump/


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[Tahoe54]

Back to the topic at hand I just ordered a Pieps bag through Klim, after reading all the reviews and product info it seems like the best choice. Can't wait to practice with it, hopefully that's all I ever have to do!