Has anyone tried one of these JetForce Avalanche Air Babs?
JetForce Avalanche Air Bag
- Thread starter SnoFro
- Start date
I just picked up my Pieps Tour Rider 24 yesterday....Love it. I have pulled the cord 4 times already. Plugged the charger in over night and it's ready to pull another 4 times. Great for practicing.
Once I saw my buddy's I had to get one for myself. I got the jetforce black Diamond. I've pulled it twice and let my wife try it for fun.
I'm waiting for another company to make a similar design. I don't want my money to go to a company that supports organizations that want to ban outdoor power sports.
EXACTLY.
This is made by black diamond/ patagonia, THE most vehemently anti motorized corporation in existence... How the F Klim got into bed with them is beyond my comprehension.
I'm a fan of klim, but they need a HUGE bitch slap for this, and I would HOPE the sledding/ snowbike community would be aware enough to not support that company. Yvon has enough money already... we don't need to give him OURS.
A statement from their president, peter metcalf right on their website:
"Metcalf believes that wilderness should be protected and valued, rather than exploited and abused by motorized groups"
This is made by black diamond/ patagonia, THE most vehemently anti motorized corporation in existence... How the F Klim got into bed with them is beyond my comprehension.
I'm a fan of klim, but they need a HUGE bitch slap for this, and I would HOPE the sledding/ snowbike community would be aware enough to not support that company. Yvon has enough money already... we don't need to give him OURS.
A statement from their president, peter metcalf right on their website:
"Metcalf believes that wilderness should be protected and valued, rather than exploited and abused by motorized groups"
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Those sanctimonious righteous eco douches feel they have exclusivity in the rights to care about the environment and that if you participate in any activity that uses a motor you implicitly don't care about the world. These same hypocrites are same a-holes heli/cat skiing and building water sucking golf courses all over the place. You think ISIS gives a flying F#@k about global warming, we've got way bigger issues than a few snow bikes in the back country during the winter. They won't be getting any of my dollars that's for sure. Same goes for MEC in Canada.
M5
M5
Where do those packs pull the air from? Haven't gotten to see one up close, I like the idea but I feel safer with a pressurized canister. Was curious though on where it pulled air into the fans
There's plenty of air under the snow. Especially while it's still moving. The only reason you asphixiate is because the moisture you breath out creates a barrier with the snow around your face. This technology is far superior to air cannisters (in my opinion) for many reasons. I'm looking forward to more companies developing similiar systems and making them lighter, and better.
The jetforce pulls air from the atmosphere just like the majority of air that fills the bag(s) on a pressurized canister system. On pressurized canister systems, the canister contents are not near enough volume to inflate the bags alone. That canister pressure is primarily used to suck atmospheric air into the bags via a venturi effect. Around 70% of the air in the inflated bags is outside air and not the canister. So the jetforce pulling in 100% atmospheric air is really a non-issue if the air source is the concern because the canister bags have basically done that all along without issue.
Aside from my internal conflicts of supporting the parent company, I think the jetforce is great technology and I hope to switch to it in another year. Yes the battery will need replaced every 5 years, but battery replacement will be cheap compared to refilling canisters, replacing triggers and paying hazmat fees on shipping canisters on my current ABS setup (which uses nitrogen and trigger systems). You could face the same thing if using a pressurized air system (like BCA) if you don't have a local place that will fill an air-based systems. The costs and inconvenience of refilling do add up if you are practicing at least once a year and, more importantly, practicing out in the field and that is a more realistic option with the jetforce pack. Also, if you do deploy, you repack the bags and are ready to go again where most systems can only be useful again if you have a filled canister (and for some, a trigger handle) at the ready. Plus, the jetforce bag repacks with the stuff method which has little risk of error where some of the other bags have specific folding methods that, if not followed, could potentially cause deployment issue).
From several of the avy classes I have attended, I'm always amazed to hear the number of people involved in an avalanche that are wearing an avy pack but don't deploy it. This includes ski patrol that do practice deploying packs. We all like to think we'd be able to immediately deploy without even thinking about it, but I have to believe that part of preparedness is building muscle memory and that comes from repetitive practice deployments out in the mountains on your machine and not from a one time deployment in your living room in street clothes. Only out in the field will you get the feel of deploying while in the cold, wearing full gear (helmet, tekvest, gloves, etc.) on your machine as you ride down a hill. If one avy pack technology is more conducive to an individual training with practice deployment out in the field, and hence be more prepared and likely to deploy in a real avy situation, then it is an advancement in my eyes.
Aside from my internal conflicts of supporting the parent company, I think the jetforce is great technology and I hope to switch to it in another year. Yes the battery will need replaced every 5 years, but battery replacement will be cheap compared to refilling canisters, replacing triggers and paying hazmat fees on shipping canisters on my current ABS setup (which uses nitrogen and trigger systems). You could face the same thing if using a pressurized air system (like BCA) if you don't have a local place that will fill an air-based systems. The costs and inconvenience of refilling do add up if you are practicing at least once a year and, more importantly, practicing out in the field and that is a more realistic option with the jetforce pack. Also, if you do deploy, you repack the bags and are ready to go again where most systems can only be useful again if you have a filled canister (and for some, a trigger handle) at the ready. Plus, the jetforce bag repacks with the stuff method which has little risk of error where some of the other bags have specific folding methods that, if not followed, could potentially cause deployment issue).
From several of the avy classes I have attended, I'm always amazed to hear the number of people involved in an avalanche that are wearing an avy pack but don't deploy it. This includes ski patrol that do practice deploying packs. We all like to think we'd be able to immediately deploy without even thinking about it, but I have to believe that part of preparedness is building muscle memory and that comes from repetitive practice deployments out in the mountains on your machine and not from a one time deployment in your living room in street clothes. Only out in the field will you get the feel of deploying while in the cold, wearing full gear (helmet, tekvest, gloves, etc.) on your machine as you ride down a hill. If one avy pack technology is more conducive to an individual training with practice deployment out in the field, and hence be more prepared and likely to deploy in a real avy situation, then it is an advancement in my eyes.
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Skiing is what moved me to the mountains in the first place, I've always skied and I always will. I love skinning a line up then getting those untouched turns its one of my favourite things in life. That said I'm also a huge gear head, again always have been always will be. I love new technology and applaud innovation.
I just got our snowmobile club monthly newsletter and it seems we are going to be in litigation with the USFS over land use. As such I cannot justify bringing myself to support a company that is attempting to eliminate motorized back country access at the grass roots level. Clubs are struggling against the onslaught of huge corporate donations vs. annual membership dues of the clubs themselves. The technology will become irrelevant if there is nowhere to use it. By supporting these guys we are basically just shooting ourselves in the foot.
I fully agree about training and muscle memory etc. but that's a last resort, more time spent on training such as an AST 2 course where the emphasis is on route selection and travel in avi terrain is money better spent IMO.
Technology isn't going to save you, your brain and good choices are.
M5
I just got our snowmobile club monthly newsletter and it seems we are going to be in litigation with the USFS over land use. As such I cannot justify bringing myself to support a company that is attempting to eliminate motorized back country access at the grass roots level. Clubs are struggling against the onslaught of huge corporate donations vs. annual membership dues of the clubs themselves. The technology will become irrelevant if there is nowhere to use it. By supporting these guys we are basically just shooting ourselves in the foot.
I fully agree about training and muscle memory etc. but that's a last resort, more time spent on training such as an AST 2 course where the emphasis is on route selection and travel in avi terrain is money better spent IMO.
Technology isn't going to save you, your brain and good choices are.
M5
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Absolutely! I assumed that went without saying but I suppose it really shouldn't as I meet sledders and skiers all the time that haven't even been to a free 2 hour basic avy course much less a good "in the field" hands on course. Identifying conditions/terrain and risk management are what keep you from getting into trouble which is far more important then getting out of it.
Are you sure about that ? Can you tell me where this venturi valve is on my ABS bag ?
While i appreciate you like this bag that supports the shutdown of our lands i have to point out a important fact. Batteries suck ! Baby sitting a battery over multiple years is just another issue to add to a bag. As is the electronic motor itself. Where is this motor made ? Using it over and over and practicing just wears out the integral part of the system. What happens when u forget to charge it ? Are you going to ride without a pack that works ?
These negatives regarding the other bags arent really issues as far as the way they affect the deployment of the bag itself. I replace my ABS cannister every 3 seasons at a cost of 45 dollars. ABS has been doing this for many years and have piles of test data regarding their system, as well as many many real life situations which gives me the warm fuzzy feeling. This bag is new to the market and is in a way unproven. The cost is getting a little extreme, i can only imagine what the military grade cold Lithium is worth to replace. Looks like it works well, I guess time will tell.
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Sure. It is part of the "fill and outlet" valve, as ABS calls it. There are two because there are twin bags. It is the same valve you push your finger into to deflate the bag.
Here is a link to all the parts of an ABS pack...
https://www.abs-airbag.com/us/abs-system-components.html
My wife and I sure love our ABS packs and felt they were the best technology for us after weighing the pros and cons like we do with everything. When new technology comes along, we do it all over again so I guess we are in the middle of that with jetforce tech; the evaluation. I self admittedly get excited about new tech and the thought of adopting it (typically after waiting a couple years for it to establish a bit of a track record) but we'll see were that evaluation brings us in this case. Thoughts of moving to a jet force in the future may change after all is said and done or we may go that route. Will be fun to evaluate. And fun, for me, to read a future post of my own, in a year or two, to see what we decided was best for us. Ha.
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Interesting. I always thought the only valve was the deflate. At what point does the valve seal ?
For me the addition of mechanical break down, battery, and cost would steer me clear of the Jetforce bag until it shows durability and longevity. As well the alarmists who want to shut us down on the grand scale will not see any more of my money, they have too much of it already LOL
For me the addition of mechanical break down, battery, and cost would steer me clear of the Jetforce bag until it shows durability and longevity. As well the alarmists who want to shut us down on the grand scale will not see any more of my money, they have too much of it already LOL
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Yeah, it's interesting stuff. It's about the only way possible to create so much volume out of such a tiny canister. The documentation I've read specified 50 to 70% of the final airbag volume is ambient air vs. canister contents depending on the manufacturer and type of canister contents. If it were100% cannister air, I can't imagine how may psi pressure would have to be or how big the canister would have to be (size and weight) but I don't think we would want it on our backs. Ha.
I can only speculate, but I assume as soon as the flow of nitrogen (or air from other brands) from the canister slows, it stops pulling in atmospheric air and is seals. I also assume it somehow limits the amount of pressure put into the bags once they are full since the setup has the potential to inflate a bit more volume than the bags hold. My guess is the venturi is self limiting by way of air pressure/back pressure from the bag.
Potential volume and flow are an interesting aspect of the jetforce; it has the ability to keep pushing air for a longer period of time than a canister. Not infinite, but measured in minutes and not seconds. The jetforce fan is rated a high enough volume-per-second to inflate it's bag, and keep it inflated, with an 8 inch tear in the bag.
It would be interesting to see the documented hour rating on the fans. I'd have to reference the many videos of inflation, but seems to me they run at 100% for the first 10 seconds or so (even though they are fully inflated in the first couple seconds), then run at a reduced rate for 3 minutes with intermittent 100% bursts, then a short period to deflate. So it will take many deployments to accumulate any significant time on the fan so long as it is rated for a reasonable amount of time. You have me curious enough to send an inquiry. Will be interesting to hear from the manufacturer if the fans are rated by time, number of deployments, both or neither. While I'm at it, I'll ask about battery replacement cost. I thought there was a thread about that on another forum so maybe I'll see if that led anywhere.
Fun research!
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Edit: found this jet force PDF.
http://demandware.edgesuite.net/aakn_prd/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-bdel/default/dwb01e5262/instructions/F15_Instructions/M11477_B_JetForce_Airbag_IS_WEB.pdf
It says the pack as a whole is certified for 50 deployments. Which doesn't tell us much as most items are rated and engineered to last far beyond a certified rating (pistons are another exampe...though, admittedly, a piston failure would typically not have the same consequences as an avy bag failure-to-deploy). That PDF also mentions a service life of 5 years...or more...or less...or maybe up to 10. Kind of vague wording. Ha. It's unclear if a jetforce can be sent in to be recertified.
For comparison, my ABS manual says the abs system (and explicitly not the backpack itself) can "be expected to function for 10 years". That is if you send it to them every 3 years for an inspection that you pay for, unfold the bags yearly and do other inspection criteria. They also recommend blowing it off every year. The typical stuff you would expect.
So two different criteria between the two that are hard to compare, but both point towards fairly long life. I'm still going to inquire about fan life and battery replacements and will share the response.
http://demandware.edgesuite.net/aakn_prd/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-bdel/default/dwb01e5262/instructions/F15_Instructions/M11477_B_JetForce_Airbag_IS_WEB.pdf
It says the pack as a whole is certified for 50 deployments. Which doesn't tell us much as most items are rated and engineered to last far beyond a certified rating (pistons are another exampe...though, admittedly, a piston failure would typically not have the same consequences as an avy bag failure-to-deploy). That PDF also mentions a service life of 5 years...or more...or less...or maybe up to 10. Kind of vague wording. Ha. It's unclear if a jetforce can be sent in to be recertified.
For comparison, my ABS manual says the abs system (and explicitly not the backpack itself) can "be expected to function for 10 years". That is if you send it to them every 3 years for an inspection that you pay for, unfold the bags yearly and do other inspection criteria. They also recommend blowing it off every year. The typical stuff you would expect.
So two different criteria between the two that are hard to compare, but both point towards fairly long life. I'm still going to inquire about fan life and battery replacements and will share the response.
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Still seeing ZERO reason I would want to have a battery in my pack, and a setup that deploys much more slowly... all while supporting the people destroying our ability to do the sport which is why we have the bag in the first place.
I have a pump that I can keep in my truck that can refill a canister for any of the air based units, whole setup costs $195, if being able to re-deploy the same day is an issue, I can run to the truck & refill. Having been one of the few who has been saved by my pack (my story is on the ABS site, and in a big thread on here) I can't imagine putting myself at risk twice in the same day... but for the difference in cost from any of the other bags to the jetforce (got to give the greenies more money to destroy us with) you could carry a space cylinder as well.
Aside from redeployment, I see no reason to buy that thing, and as stated, the additional risk, and guaranteed danger to our sport makes it a no brainer to avoid.
Btw, for those who may want the ability to refill their own packs, here is the setup that allows you to do it at home, for free. (this pump is specifically recommended by BCA, just fyi... this isn't something I just came up with)
http://www.amazon.com/Benjamin-High-Pressure-Hand-Pump/dp/B00460IFPW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450119984&sr=8-1&keywords=benjamin+hand+pump
And to keep moisture out, this attaches to the pump, and the desiccant is rechargeable. BCA doesn't require this, but it's worth $25 imo.
http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Optics-USA-Desiccant-Pressure/dp/B0094O3GZE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450120128&sr=8-1&keywords=benjamin+hand+pump+desiccant
This works for BCA, snowpulse & wary
I have a pump that I can keep in my truck that can refill a canister for any of the air based units, whole setup costs $195, if being able to re-deploy the same day is an issue, I can run to the truck & refill. Having been one of the few who has been saved by my pack (my story is on the ABS site, and in a big thread on here) I can't imagine putting myself at risk twice in the same day... but for the difference in cost from any of the other bags to the jetforce (got to give the greenies more money to destroy us with) you could carry a space cylinder as well.
Aside from redeployment, I see no reason to buy that thing, and as stated, the additional risk, and guaranteed danger to our sport makes it a no brainer to avoid.
Btw, for those who may want the ability to refill their own packs, here is the setup that allows you to do it at home, for free. (this pump is specifically recommended by BCA, just fyi... this isn't something I just came up with)
http://www.amazon.com/Benjamin-High-Pressure-Hand-Pump/dp/B00460IFPW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450119984&sr=8-1&keywords=benjamin+hand+pump
And to keep moisture out, this attaches to the pump, and the desiccant is rechargeable. BCA doesn't require this, but it's worth $25 imo.
http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Optics-USA-Desiccant-Pressure/dp/B0094O3GZE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450120128&sr=8-1&keywords=benjamin+hand+pump+desiccant
This works for BCA, snowpulse & wary
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