I understand all the reasons to buy an MX bike, but...
- Thread starter thejean
- Start date
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thejean
Well-known member
Ok, since the gear ratios are nearly identical from 1-5 to that of an XCF, I suspect the real issue then with the xcw is the power delivery itself. It seems either a tuner or running an XCF/SXF ignition box would solve that, no? If not, how about doing that with a 450 xcw? Seems you'd end up with a 450 XCF just with an extra gear for higher speed summer riding.
Edit: so I have learned that the heads and pistons of the XCF are different than the xcw so its more than a tuning thing to get an xcw to XCF power delivery characteristics. What is really needed is an XCF with 3 gears and wiring harness for lights.
Edit: so I have learned that the heads and pistons of the XCF are different than the xcw so its more than a tuning thing to get an xcw to XCF power delivery characteristics. What is really needed is an XCF with 3 gears and wiring harness for lights.
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Freeride1
Well-known member
I have been running a 2012, KX450 this season. I have come to the conclusion that at 3000 ft I run 2nd gear when I am climbing hard in deep snow I use 2nd gear unless I am in a track someone else made then I can grab 3rd. At 7000 ft I have to use 1st to not bog when climbing hard in deep snow. The rest of the gears are used for different degrees of packed climbs or flats.
On the trail or flats I go right to 5th and wish I had 2 more gears. That's why I think I want a bike with a wide ratio tranny sui I can hear the bike to pull 2nd in most climbs and then have y'all gears to get down the trail fast.
Yes stiff forks are way better, I will revalve for supercross any bike I run in the snow. It works so good.
I also like the idea of the big tank of aXC, XCW or WR as well as the stator/lights. I do want Estart as well. Even with my Rekluse it stalls when I chop the throttle and the motor is in cold powder.
On the trail or flats I go right to 5th and wish I had 2 more gears. That's why I think I want a bike with a wide ratio tranny sui I can hear the bike to pull 2nd in most climbs and then have y'all gears to get down the trail fast.
Yes stiff forks are way better, I will revalve for supercross any bike I run in the snow. It works so good.
I also like the idea of the big tank of aXC, XCW or WR as well as the stator/lights. I do want Estart as well. Even with my Rekluse it stalls when I chop the throttle and the motor is in cold powder.
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WASnowBiker
Active member
MX vs. Enduro bikes
thejean - get the MX bike and happy trails. This has all been covered in detail on the forums - suspension (absolutely must firm up enduro forks), power band (who wants heavier enduro flywheel in addition to massive rubber flywheel spinning out back), lights (easy to plug Cyclops into just about anything), etc, etc. And I can confidently state that both my wide ratio tranny's leave too wide shift gaps in the hairy stuff.
Of course I'm referring to a dedicated snow bike, not something you'll be swapping over to dirt every year. You'd need to swap fork springs every season then too. And why would you even want 10 lbs. of extra gas way up high in a larger tank when you have an extra 3.3 gallons down low where it belongs?
The more aggressive you ride, the better the MX setup is. And the new '15 Tsled redesign handles SOOoo much better than previous kits so you gotta keep that in mind too.
I've had my kit on a 300 XCW, then Berg 570 before moving to 450 SX. So there's my history.
Good luck
thejean - get the MX bike and happy trails. This has all been covered in detail on the forums - suspension (absolutely must firm up enduro forks), power band (who wants heavier enduro flywheel in addition to massive rubber flywheel spinning out back), lights (easy to plug Cyclops into just about anything), etc, etc. And I can confidently state that both my wide ratio tranny's leave too wide shift gaps in the hairy stuff.
Of course I'm referring to a dedicated snow bike, not something you'll be swapping over to dirt every year. You'd need to swap fork springs every season then too. And why would you even want 10 lbs. of extra gas way up high in a larger tank when you have an extra 3.3 gallons down low where it belongs?
The more aggressive you ride, the better the MX setup is. And the new '15 Tsled redesign handles SOOoo much better than previous kits so you gotta keep that in mind too.
I've had my kit on a 300 XCW, then Berg 570 before moving to 450 SX. So there's my history.
Good luck
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Hbmtr
Well-known member
Well said.
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thejean
Well-known member
I can see what you're saying being true on a wide ratio 5 spd bike. But as per leee's post #21 above, the ratios for the 6 spd xcw aren't actually that different to the 5 spd MX bikes for the first 5 gears. So isn't the main issue fork springs and speed of power delivery?
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Hbmtr
Well-known member
Jean on the topic of speed delivery,a mx 4t produces a great amount of torque in lower to mid rpm ranges,that said they are actually pretty easy to ride a gear higher when on the trail.You can also add a flywheel weight for more inertia and even smoother power delivery.Remember its all in your right hand,yes if you grab a handful it will put you on your a$$.
For suspension [forks] you could buy a second set off of ebay there are a lot of cycle salvage dealers who sell fork sets for reasonable prices.250.00-400$ and you can set them up anyway u want them.for the rear shock get it re valved for off-road. I raced off-road for a couple of years in a desert series in N.Nevada.I bought 01 cr 250 mx bike re-valved the suspension ,put a skid plate on it and a tank= off-road bike.Did the same thing with a 04 crf 450 when the 4t craze hit.hope this helps
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warreng417
Well-known member
Dont set your mind on KTM's. An uncorked wr450 (gytr kit) Will have just as much if not more power than a pumpkin. Yamaha Valve train will outlast a ktm by double, 6speed, big tank, lights, lots of electric power, less money, amazing trail bike, estart....should i keep going? KTM is way overated
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thejean
Well-known member
I guess my post above was not intended to express a concern with the 450 MX power delivery. I am trying to figure out how much poorer the power delivery of a newer 500 xcw is relative to the 450 SXF/XCF because based on gear ratios alone, the shifting shouldn't be an issue. Ergo, it must be a power delivery shortfall with the 500's that makes the MX bikes so much better according to most. How much closer does the map switch get the 500 to the 450 in terms if snappiness? Also, when you look at peak torque and hp, the 500 actually has a slight edge over the 450 on the KMS dyno. That means that the 500's seemingly poorer snowbike performance must be related to the ability of the 450 to build revs quickly and less about the transmissions (again, because the gear ratios from 1-5 are nearly identical).
Edit: in other words, if I am ok with the less sporty power delivery of the 500 xcw (and willing to live with that so I can use the bike as a dual sport in the summer), then that would be the only downside because gears 1-5 are basically the same as an XCF anyway. It seems people are calling the XCF a close ratio tranny and the xcw a wide ratio tranny but based on the gear ratios posted above, I don't see that, at least not for that particular model year anyway.
Edit: in other words, if I am ok with the less sporty power delivery of the 500 xcw (and willing to live with that so I can use the bike as a dual sport in the summer), then that would be the only downside because gears 1-5 are basically the same as an XCF anyway. It seems people are calling the XCF a close ratio tranny and the xcw a wide ratio tranny but based on the gear ratios posted above, I don't see that, at least not for that particular model year anyway.
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Hbmtr
Well-known member
I had a 2010 150 xc ktm with the dual ignition maps. 1map had a steeper curve=quicker hit then a shallower curve = less hit.The map switch just provides a minor difference in power delivery.I bet you half the riding public couldn't notice the difference .If you are gonna dual sport hard to beat the 500 xc-w.
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Rush44
Well-known member
Not true man. The 13 KTM 450SXF with exhaust puts out 62HP and has a linear power curve all the way up to max RPM (and has the most over-rev of all 450s). There is no better 13 450 motor for snowbiking out there. The bike... yea you can make some complaints about it, but the motor can't be beat in it's class.
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Hbmtr
Well-known member
Agree on the above,many different opinions.with so many options available you can't lose.If i had a choice for a snow bike only it would be 450sxf with ported head and after market exh.Or have ktm race services build the moter up if funds weren't a worry.
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thejean
Well-known member
I agree with folks that the 450 is the way to go if a dedicated snowbike. I didn't want to turn this into another 'which bike should I get thread' but it seems I owe the contributors to this discussion a bit more info...
I may want to dual sport a bit this summer, which is the only reason I am considering a 500 enduro. So here are the two options I am toying with (will give you some insight into the questions I have been asking above):
1. 2013 450 XCF with a light kit for summer (is a speedo stock on an XCF?)
2. A 500 ktm or husky with the hot map loaded and maybe a few other power goodies
Obviously the 450 will be handful for dual sport riding but I'll only be doing day trips, not epic multiple-day rides. I have a 300 xcw that I will keep for single track so it doesn't need to serve that function.
The 500 does everything well but doesn't make the best snowbike, which was my original reason for looking at a second bike in the first place, so I feel like if I ought to compromise, it should be on the summer duties, especially since I have a second xcw anyway.
So there's my dilemma, road register a 450 XCF and live with the harshness or get a 500 xcw and call it good. If only the XCF had an extra gear... It would be the best of all worlds. Can I just gear it up with a sprocket to make it run better on the open road?
Some other considerations are that I might also buy some supermoto wheels so which would be better for that, street legal XCF or xcw? And them there is also the PDS vs linkage issue, which could become important if I ever decide to go with an SX kit.
This is a very tough decision...
JC
I may want to dual sport a bit this summer, which is the only reason I am considering a 500 enduro. So here are the two options I am toying with (will give you some insight into the questions I have been asking above):
1. 2013 450 XCF with a light kit for summer (is a speedo stock on an XCF?)
2. A 500 ktm or husky with the hot map loaded and maybe a few other power goodies
Obviously the 450 will be handful for dual sport riding but I'll only be doing day trips, not epic multiple-day rides. I have a 300 xcw that I will keep for single track so it doesn't need to serve that function.
The 500 does everything well but doesn't make the best snowbike, which was my original reason for looking at a second bike in the first place, so I feel like if I ought to compromise, it should be on the summer duties, especially since I have a second xcw anyway.
So there's my dilemma, road register a 450 XCF and live with the harshness or get a 500 xcw and call it good. If only the XCF had an extra gear... It would be the best of all worlds. Can I just gear it up with a sprocket to make it run better on the open road?
Some other considerations are that I might also buy some supermoto wheels so which would be better for that, street legal XCF or xcw? And them there is also the PDS vs linkage issue, which could become important if I ever decide to go with an SX kit.
This is a very tough decision...
JC
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Jimb
Well-known member
I'll take overrated all day long because of that little electric start button.
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Hbmtr
Well-known member
Why not build up the 300 xc-w with a good port job ,cut head and sx cdi box,split the cases and install favorite gear set-up.there was a build thread this year on one.
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thejean
Well-known member
Yeah, or trade up to a newer xc. Other issue with the Xc is that it wouldn't make a great dual sport I don't think. And because my current 300 xcw was already registered as an offroad bike, I can't register for street use now. Weird Alberta law where if you have previously registered the bike offroad use you can't go on road with it. But if the first time you register it you declare it on road then no issues.
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M5-
Well-known member
Here's my take on it, if you want and can only afford 1 bike that you want to do everything with buy the 500 exc. It will make a great snowbike, you can ride it on the street, you can super motard it, you can ride highways then fire roads and you can ride single track although it will wear you out quicker than your 300 on the single track. No hassle getting street plates cause its factory legal. I wouldn't get hung up on 2 or 3 hp here or there or even the gearing that's easy to deal with. I like the granny gear first sometimes for getting unstuck and on the single track.
JMO
M5
JMO
M5