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How to make avy training more important?

J

jbsleds

Well-known member
I got almost no feedback to my “Levels of Ignorance” article. That tells me pretty clearly that it didn’t really do much for you. That’s okay. I’ll keep trying.

“Levels of Ignorance” was a negative motivation approach. It said, “you don’t want to be that guy”. While I still think it has some value as a catchy slide in a power point presentation on avy safety, it probably won’t do what I hoped it would.

So, now what?

Like all of you, every time I read an avalanche incident report I realize how important it is to get more snowmobilers to attend training.
Somehow, we need to make getting avalanche training a fundamental part of the snowmobiling culture. We need to look for a way to make snowmobilers want avy training as much as they want to learn how to sidehill.

I’m not a backcountry riding expert. And most of you know a whole lot more about avalanches then I do. I’m just trying to add my two cents to the discussion in the hopes that we might save some lives.

The way to get people to do almost anything is to create a way for them to get positive recognition from the folks who are important to them. As snowmobilers, we want recognition from other snowmobilers.

Until we make having avalanche training a “badge of honor” among snowmobilers, something snowmobilers are proud to have, we’re going to have limited success.

Currently, some (many?) snowmobilers think that attending avy training is not cool. There’s an, “I don’t need that s**t” attitude among them. We need to change that.

How do we make having avy training as cool as being able to hold a sidehill across a long steep slope, lead a group of riders through a thick patch of trees in deep powder, or swap out a complete engine at the bottom of a deep canyon after the first one blew up?

Here are some ideas for you to consider:

1. Whenever we talk about other riders, we honor them for their training and knowledge about avalanches. For example, “Did you know that A.J. has over 60 hours of avy training?” or “Ben just finished reading ‘Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain’ and he told me . . .”, etc.

2. Create a “levels of certification” system that is available for all snowmobilers to attend easily and at a reasonable price. I’m sure those private courses are very good, but most of us don’t have the time or money to attend them. So we’re going to have to work with our local or state agencies to do this. For example, Level 1 is a 6-8 hour classroom session on the basics. Level 2 is a 6-8 hour field session on the basics. Level 3 is a classroom & field session on more advanced info. Level 4 focuses on leadership in a rescue situation. Etc, etc.

3. Award certificates of completion, patches to be worn on clothing, decals for sleds and cars, etc. to those who complete each level of training. These should have good looking graphics and be something we’re proud to display.

4. Show respect for snowmobilers who have progressed up the “levels” system. “Carter and Logan earned their Level 1 last weekend.” “Curt and Britney just finished Level 2.” “Remember Scott & Christine? They made Level 3”. “ I saw John & Sheila last weekend, they’re both Level 4 now.” Etc., etc.

5. Take photos of each “graduating class” and post them on websites, in dealerships, etc.

6. Clubs give recognition to members who complete the levels, list their names in newsletters, etc.

7. Create a forum at snowest to post names of those who get training and their levels.

So, those are my thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to read them.
 
jbsleds,

I applaud your efforts...it is a difficult task to change the mindset of an entire user group.

In Washington, we have been fighting this battle for a couple of years now. Even on a weeked when the conditions for riding are bad, we cant get 10 sledders to show up for an "on the snow" class...the good news is that those who do attend have a truly eye opening experience, so the outreach from there is positive.

Dont give up the effort.
 
[
2. Create a “levels of certification” system that is available for all snowmobilers to attend easily and at a reasonable price. I’m sure those private courses are very good, but most of us don’t have the time or money to attend them. So we’re going to have to work with our local or state agencies to do this. For example, Level 1 is a 6-8 hour classroom session on the basics. Level 2 is a 6-8 hour field session on the basics. Level 3 is a classroom & field session on more advanced info. Level 4 focuses on leadership in a rescue situation. Etc, etc.

I gotta applaud your effort, but the current education system is pretty good. There are already levels of certification in place. You even get a neat little certificate when you complate a course. Dont reinvent the wheel, just take a class, it only takes about a weekend and costs way less then most guys spend on a fancy lightweight seat for their sled

The current system has been working great for a long time for every user group except for sledders mainly because the classes were focused more on skiers because sledders werent taking classes. Now most areas offer as many sled specific courses as ski specific. Have a quick google search, you'll be surprised how many courses are available. Most places will do a private course for your group if you sign up with enough people.

Saying you dont have the time or money to attend a "private" class is ridiculous when you are riding a brand new $12,000 sled with another 3k of goodies on it. Even if you are riding a $2500 Mountain Max its still a drop in the bucket. An AST 1 class in Canada is 16 hours long, only 2 days, 1 FREAKIN WEEKEND!!!. Cost is between $200-$400

You really think State Agencies will do a better job?? They would F*%K it up worse then you can imagine.
 
modsldr - thanks for the good comments. You're right, it is going to take lots of effort. Keep up the good work.

James T Kirk - thanks for your feedback. System already in place. Why reinvent the wheel. Points well taken.

So the question is still: how do we get people to take the training?
 
It starts with those of us who do have training....We as a user group need to change our mentality....those with experience need to start using it...alot...first would be to stop your riding buddies when they do something unsafe...(such as climbing over you when you are stuck, tell them flat out..this was unsafe..you put us both at risk...dont do it again or I will no longer ride with you...same with guys parking at the base of a hill....stop the climbing, and make them move...be pleasant, but firm...everyone must move from this area..here is a safe area to spectate from.....when more then 1 guy hits a slope...stop them all...explain the risk they are taking..explain the serious consequences of those risk......
Making back country travel/play safe for sledders starts with us..those who have good training...and it wont get better till we enforce the rules on our own riding partners......We can make a difference..but you have to make everyone(including yourself) follow the rules...that is how we stop this stuff...We ride with new peeps all the time..and as soon as we meet up in the parking lot ,I ask them if they have safety gear, training and know how to use it, those who dont I will let borrow my spare equipment, beacons,shovels and probes...I will spend 10 minutes and teach them how to use a beacon, what basic safety procedures they need to follow...and I watch them when we ride...if I see them do something dangerous, I stop them and talk about it....If I see others doing dangerous stuff, I stop them and talk to them..it is the only way to lower these tragic mistakes we see happeniing out there...one thing I see alot of is a group will go out and you end up with everyone just going to town, no one paying attention to their riding buddies, again a very dangerous thing to do...everyone sshould be constantly watch(and knowing) exactly what/where their members are...(I spend alot of time taking film/pictures just because of this) not even counting the avy dangers, just the chance of someone hitting a tree, or blindly hitting each other is more then enough reason for guys to start paying attention to what their partners are doing....at any time during a ride you should be able to pinpoint exactly where/what your partners as well as any other riders in the area are doing..if you cant..you are exposed to risk....weather it be from an avy or a crash.....I know the riding is extreme, and the reason we are all out there, but honestly, do any of you think you could look your best friends wife/parent/child in the eye and say ..yeah because I wasnt following the training I was given/or paying attention to what my buddy was doing...he is dead...I am so sorry.....thats something i sure wouldnt want to have to live with, get up or go to bed every night thinking about....
 
Just to add a little to what J T K said...

Here in WA we are lucky to have the involvement of Michael Jackson, founder of ASAP (Alpine Safety Awareness Program) ASAP.

He has taken on the task of developing (with others) a Snowmobile Specific Ciriculum.

These classes have evolved into a 1 Day, on the snow class. It is a full day event that costs only $120.

Next season, there should be a second, more advanced, 1 Day on the snow class.

1 day and $120 in neither too much time, nor too much money, and quite frankly I'm tired of hearing these excuses. THis is part of the mindset that we have to help change. It should be unacceptable to anyone to ride with a group in the backcountry without a MINIMUM of a basic safety and awareness class. I think this is part of what aksnowrider is saying.

It is always amazing to see the students jaws on the ground when we do a "blind rescue" scenario at the beginning of the day (this is done to assess the students, and to open their eyes right out of the gate as to how unprepared they really are)...and from that point on we ALWAYS have their full attention for the rest of the day.

Thanks again for the efforts.
 
[ Saying you dont have the time or money to attend a "private" class is ridiculous when you are riding a brand new $12,000 sled with another 3k of goodies on it. Even if you are riding a $2500 Mountain Max its still a drop in the bucket. An AST 1 class in Canada is 16 hours long, only 2 days, 1 FREAKIN WEEKEND!!!. Cost is between $200-$400

While I don't disagree with your sentiments the fact of the matter is they do nothing to solve the problem. Those guys riding older sleds on a budget are looking at $200 on a class or $200 on a seat or a clutch repair. I can guarantee you I know which choice 90% - 95% are going to make - without a second thought. Even most of those with a big budget are going to make that choice. I think there are two thinigs that we need to do to move this down the road.

First, put our money where our mouths are. Find some way to have the classes paid for without requiring the attendees to pay. Get ACSA, your state association, your local club to put on these classes with the costs covered by the organization. Heck, even create a new organization that those of us who are passionate about this can contribute to for this specific purpose. I know in some of the western states where I ride, when I pay for my trail pass I'm also asked if I would like to contribute to the Search and Rescue fund. Maybe we could also ask everyone if they would like to contribute to an Avalanche Safety Training Fund. If we put our heads together I'm sure we can come up with all kinds of ideas to fund this. (BTW, we also need to recognize that for many of these people they aren't just looking at $200 for a class. They are also looking at the cost of a beacon, a probe and maybe even an Avy Bag. Now we're starting to get into real $$$!)

Second, we need to do something that makes having been trained a desirable status symbol. Maybe it's a patch to sew on your snowmobile suit or a sticker to put on your sled or something else. But then we, who care about this need to give a shout out, a high five, to everyone we see with a patch or a sticker. Maybe we work to get the class picture of every Avy class in the local paper or in the state Snowmobile Association paper. Maybe we throw a free party every May for everyone within 50 miles who graduated from an Avy class this year. Maybe we reward every graduate with a free proble and beacon!

I know it sounds a little assinine to have to incentivize people to save their own lives and the lives of their friends and family but, unfortunately, this is human nature. If you ever attend any kind of voluntary safety or self inprovement class and really assess who is attending, I think you will see that 50% - 90% of those attending are the ones who already understand the issues and really don't need the training. Those that need it worst are unlikely to be in attendance.

My $.02.
 
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You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. If you really want to buy a fancy seat with your $200 thats your problem, but by making that decision you are part of the problem. I find it hard to believe that anyone who has enough disposable income to be a sledder cant come up with what could be the most important $200 they ever spend. You gotta pay to play bud.
 
You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. If you really want to buy a fancy seat with your $200 thats your problem, but by making that decision you are part of the problem. I find it hard to believe that anyone who has enough disposable income to be a sledder cant come up with what could be the most important $200 they ever spend. You gotta pay to play bud.

While I understand your feellings (and don't necessarily disagree) there are people in these threads worried about avy deaths giving us a bad name, giving more ammunition to the anti-snowmobilling crowd, etc. It can't be both ways! Either the avy deaths are a concern to us all or it's just natural selection. If it's natural selection then why are you wasting your time posting here?
 
While I understand your feellings (and don't necessarily disagree) there are people in these threads worried about avy deaths giving us a bad name, giving more ammunition to the anti-snowmobilling crowd, etc. It can't be both ways! Either the avy deaths are a concern to us all or it's just natural selection. If it's natural selection then why are you wasting your time posting here?

Subsidizing avy education is what I have a problem with. Have you read any of my other posts? I cannot have said more about getting people to take courses. I have lived in the mountains my whole life, and have extensive avy training. I can tell you that increasing trail fees to pay for avy education for visitors who are too cheap to pay for it will fly like a lead balloon.

Do you go scuba diving without taking a course?? How about skydiving?? Are those courses free?? How do you think your odds would be skydiving without a training course first? This is no different. If someone is going to invest thousands into sledding, the cost of avalanche education should automatically be included. Backcountry skiers invest a lot of money into equipment too, you dont hear them asking for someone else to pay for their avy course, almost all are very eager to get educated.

This has nothing to do with natural selection, peoples attitudes need to change, and discussions like these will help. If you know someone who rides in the mountains and hasnt taken a course and thinks they should buy a new seat before they pay for a course tell them they are a BLEEDING IDIOT and that you will not ride with them until they get their priorities straight.
 
Maybe it should be mandatory if you buy a mountain machine that you take the course.But how will that be monitored?
Maybe the OEM's should be pony up for some of the cost.But then they will just up the price of the sled to cover it.
Maybe club memberships should include an avy course.But then memberships go up in price and not everyone is a club member.

People just need to want to do it....if you have a family...it is a no brainer.
 
Backcountry skiers invest a lot of money into equipment too, you dont hear them asking for someone else to pay for their avy course, almost all are very eager to get educated.
not stirring but if the backcountry ski idiots get their way here the whole mountain will be closed soon and i wont need any avy training.
 
Free doesn't always work either. We have numerous 4 hour basics/refresher courses for free here all winter. We also have a snowmobile specific FREE Level 1 course. These are offered via the Forest Service, with some of the costs also being covered by our local Avy Center (they do fundraisers to get their money).

We can barely get people into free courses...so cost really doesn't come into play here.

I don't feel that belittling people is going to get them to get some education. We must try giving them the reasons why they SHOULD get some education in a respectful manner. That is going to go farther. Also telling those whom don't have training and gear that you and your *crew* won't let them ride with you until they do will have an impact. Easy enough to explain to them that you value your life, and the lives of those whom you ride with...that you just aren't willing to risk anyone's safety/life.
 
what I ended up doing for 4 of my closest riding buddies years ago was buying them a class for x-mas, after bugging them for months to go buying the class for x-mas and going with got them to go...after the class they all thanked me and said they should have done it on their own..but thats ok...they got training........
 
what I ended up doing for 4 of my closest riding buddies years ago was buying them a class for x-mas, after bugging them for months to go buying the class for x-mas and going with got them to go...after the class they all thanked me and said they should have done it on their own..but thats ok...they got training........
oh yeah, 2 of them still wouldnt buy the gear back then, so that was their presents for the following x-mas..new beacons,shovels and probes...most places will give you a deal when you buy 3+ sets of avy gear as well.............
 
I used to always tell guys that didnt have the proper gear that they couldnt ride with me or my group,but then I realized that you may have just put his life in danger. He is going to ride anyways and if you refuse him and he goes and gets in trouble,then you feel like chit maybe a little responsible. At least if he is with you,he can be educated.
People just have to want to take the course. I dont think there is any way you can get people to do things they dont want to do.I mean,if they wont attend free courses,how do you expect them to pay for them.
The only way these people are going to wake up is if they get in trouble in the mtns and wish thay had some proper training.
 
av class

i sit throught the local ast1 class every year, always some new info to learn, took my first course many years ago, contiued education is a must, taking the training but never practicing is also not good, often thought about a crest to put on your back pack and maybe a decal to go on the sled everyyear. lets the others you ride with that you have had the education. have ridden this year with a few guys that took there class four or five years ago but never practice or anything. once i learned that we all had a long talk,, as a group we all discuss the snow conditions that day and through out the day, helps keep everyone working as a team.

giddyup
 
If you don't just tell someone they can't ride with you...but you explain it out as to why, that helps. Everything we talk about here...don't want to have to be the one to tell their family (wife/husband/kids/parents/etc) they won't be coming home, don't want to have to live with it the rest of your life that you couldn't save them, that you care enough that you want EVERY single member of your riding party coming home ALIVE, that you'd like it if they cared enough about you to to get educated, etc.

It doesn't work for everyone, but it IS one thing that I have found that actually gets people to pay attention..and it is the one thing that I have found to work the best (for me). I've been at this a long time...and there are many things that have been tried over the years. If everyone of your *core* crew upholds this, it is quite effective. It's only the last few years that I've taken this route. There have been several new to the sport. They didn't hesitate at all when it was explained out calmly, rationally, and truthfully.

Practice is definitely just as important. I usually carry one of our old beacons in my tunnel bag (in a small dry bag). Then when we stop for lunch, I can give it a toss (for powder snow) while the guys aren't looking. Good time to practice. :) Heck, the hubby and I even hide our beacons around the house...outside and in. Inside is rather interesting as you can put into a cabinet, closet, shoe, etc. The signal travels through the walls (which could be looked at as trees outdoors), so it makes for some great practice...and learning to trust your beacon.

I also agree on continuing education. I'm a snow geek, so I tend to go to lots of classes/refreshers...plus re-read (or get new) avy books...re-watch the vid's I have (or buy a new one, though new ones are scarce).

AK...good on you for doing that!! :face-icon-small-coo That's a huge thing, and it had to show them just how much you care for them! I'm sure that had to really make them think about just how important all of this is.
 
After triggering a slide this last weekened that some of my partners only heard and did not see, I thought I would bring this back to the top. Of course, my efforts to get them to even take an awareness course have been futile. This was my 3rd slide I've been in in 30 years of riding.
 
I have been teaching private avalanche classes for 16 years. I was one of the first to teach snowmobile specific classes. What I have found to be effective is for riders to insist that those who ride with them take a class, have the gear, know how to use it and practice regularly. Peer pressure works. There's enough trained riders out there, that you don't have to ride with the untrained. It's the untrained rider that will get you in trouble, not be able to help if you get buried and could be the one that sets off the avalanche that kills you. Why ride with them?

Ski-Doo had me teach classes in eight states this year and we found out some interesting things. In some areas, riders do not like avalanche classes due to boring classes being offered. The classes were taught by agencies where the instructor wasn't even a snowmobiler or didn't even own a snowmobile. The classes did not reflect the type of riding the students did. If your instructor shows up in a Prius with Sierra Club stickers and wearing Patagonia are you going to listen? We were told by some dealers that you would never get people to sit through a four hour class since the state agencies couldn't get people to attend for that long. We proved them wrong.

Ask your state agency instructor what kind of avalanche training they have? I was shocked to find that many who are teaching avalanche classes only have level I training and only know the basics. When I'm talking about state agencies, I'm not referring to the Avalanche Information Centers. State Agencies are not the answer in most situations. When has a government agency ever been able to offer a better service than the private sector?

Short courses are part of the problem. People will take the shortest path possible to say they have "avalanche education". These 1-2 hour trainings just don't do the job to train people. The shortest class I teach is 4 hours. A short course (4 hours or more) can be effective if taught correctly with the right information and progression. Many go on to take an on the snow rescue class. No one has ever taken a longer class and said they should have just taken the short course.

There are certain sports where short courses (1-2 hours) are not offered since they are not effective. These include scuba, whitewater kayaking, paragliding, drivers education, and rock climbing to name a few. Avalanche training should be included on that list.

The instructors should keep the classes interesting, effective and entertaining. The level I offered in Silverton, CO allows you to ride your snowmobile during class in real avalanche terrain. No one is bored. These classes are growing each year. Instructors also have to realize that you can't say "Don't highpoint or you need to stay off the 30-45 degree slopes". Most riders don't buy 800's to ride meadows. You have to be realistic and teach them how to go about it in the best way and when not to do it.

You will never get 100% of the riders to take classes, you do have the choice to not ride with them.

Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
Avalanche education for mountain riders.
 
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