Help with choosing a bike for dual use

[coryf89]

just wondering what on the xcf makes you think its the better choice?

maybe im biased, but I would mainly look to build it primarily as a snowbike, then have an average dirtbike.

the XCF has an 18" rear wheel, and a 6 speed transmission... will help you in the summer, but will screw you more in the winter overall id say. plus it comes with softer suspension, something you dont want on a snowbike (you dont even use the rear shock) plus, youre paying more for all those options that you really wont even use in the winter, and wont notice in the summer IMO. XCF is definitely a better choice than the XCW pure offroad model, but I still think the snowbike would be happiest with the SXF 450, 5 speed. cheapest model, you dont need an 18" rear or 6 speed tranny or a beefier front rim when riding with a ski all winter, then desert all summer. I think the XCF model is like 1000-1500 more too.

do you really need an 18" rear in the desert?? they dont make many 18" paddle tires for a reason. 19" is what you want. that rear is for mountain guys like me, tight, steep and rocky single track with a bib mousse or tubliss system. in the desert, AND the snow, you want lots of bottom end grunt... thats where youll be spending most of your RPM. thats what the SXF offers. you wont see 6th gear really that much if you get the XCF, in the desert or snow.

snowbikes are 100% easier and more enjoyable than a sled. I bought a summit last winter, rode it 4 times, hated it and got a snowbike. now my sled buddies struggle and fight their machines all day long, where as I sit down, relax, put around, and still make it higher and cooler places than they do in the trees. ive had several sledders tell me "theyre jealous" and its "fun to watch me bounce in and out of the trees like that"... they wish they could do that so easily. I win.

my airbox seemed extremely easy, I think its a yeti kit for like $150. small cutout, different tubing into the throttle body housing, and a snow (non foam sponge) filter and its done deal. never plugged up or given me problems yet.

 

[M5-]

IMO everything you want in a snow bike you want in a sand bike including a close ratio tranny, if the tranny is gappy in the snow it'll be gappy in the sand. Oregon dunes are way softer than Rexburg dunes and suck up power big time. For single track and off road I want light weight, wide ratio tranny with granny gear with a 6 speed or mid ratio like the KTM XC vs XC-W, good lights, 2 stroke, estart basically everyting that isn't MX. Street legal is a whole different animal. I rode my YZ off road last season and it sucked balls as an off road bike.

M5

 

[Ben 500RR-S]

I see your point I guess. if hes a sand rider, he probably doesnt ride much tight, technical, rocky single track though. so a 450 might be his best choice.

im curious as to what background snowbikers come from. are you guys mostly ex sledders or hard core dirtbikers all summer or what? ive ridden bikes, and only bikes my wholeeeee life. sleds seem like the quads of the winter. ew.

its kind of... you either got a beast snowbike, and an average dirtbike, or vice versa. I got two dedicated machines, and theyre polar opposites. what you want and what works in the winter is way different than the summer. big bore 4 stroke vs a little 2 stroke.

I used to trail-ride an 85 CR500R and then a 1996 CR500R and had a blast on them until 2010 and my firstborn(son) came and I got out of riding as there was no one left to ride with and I never had the time.

I had, and still have, my 2004 SkiDoo Rev 121" trail sled and loved it as it was the only fun one could have in the winter up here with limited off-trail riding.

Now with a 2017 Beta 500 RR-S, I have the beast of a dirtbike, a great city commuter bike for my 12 mile roundtrip to and from work, and a bomb of a snowbike and still have the snowmobile for the icy-days when we want to ride and just can't ride the snowbike for the lack of studs/picks.

Much of the dirt riding is on nasty, rocky trail where many say a 500cc 4s is not the right bike-but those are the limp-wristers who put throttle tamers on the bikes to "tone down" the hit. I have a G2 quick turn throttle as I want MORE hit. Of course, I'm a bad-azz.

Until my first snowbike ride this past December, riding the bike in the dirt/forest was the best thing to do. Now, snowbiking has taken over the #1 spot. I'm going up tonight to ride our new powder tomorrow and I'm psyched.

 

[Jaynelson]

I do know a guy that rides a ktm 350 for a snowbike, hes a big guy too and says it hauls him around pretty good. That being said his next one will be a 450. As far as the ktm's go wouldn't the 450 xc-f be the best choice? If a guy did go ktm is the airbox a big deal to make work in the snow?

I'm not going to be riding this bike in the woods, summer use would be fairly open desert and sand.

Gotta remember with a KTM 350 that it makes the same HP as most other manufacturers 450's when it's rung out....it's no slouch, just gotta rev it more. The 350 is a little more forgiving on the bottom end traction wise (with tires), which is likely not a concern for sand riding.

For OP's purposes in a KTM 450....I would chose the XC-F over the SX-F for snowbike use, as the 18" rear would be nice for summer use. They both run the linkage rear suspension for summer, just a little firmer rates in the SX. The larger clear fuel tank would be good for summer and winter use. The forks, engine and tranny are basically the same as the SX-F model....so why not take advantage of something that's a little more set up out of the box.

That said....450SX-F is slightly cheaper. If you add the XC fuel tank to it...they'll cost the same price +/- The MSRP is $300 apart up here.

 

[Jaynelson]

also, whats with the WR and EXC recommendations? ive been told you want to avoid wide ratio, offroad, 6 speed transmissions. you want the bottom end, grunty SXF transmissions.

Don't knock the 500 EXC (or husky equiv.) as a snowbike unless you try it back to back. It doesn't "feel" or sound nearly as aggressive as a 450 MX'er, but it goes all the same places with way less drama. They come set up with a thermostat out of the box, large fuel tank, no air forks to worry about. The big flywheel and huge bottom end of the bike basically never stalls on you....it's a really easy bike to ride both winter and summer. The only place the tranny has ever been a problem for me is on the internet. If you are a trail rider in summer, it's probably the best choice. Probably the most versatile bike on the market....it's not the best at anything, but it's pretty damn good at everything (MX excluded).

That said....as a stand alone snowbike, I agree you are paying for extra (unnecessary) components in an EXC.

 

[capulin overdrive]

My 2 cents on the wide tranny gap crying, partly means your bike isn't tuned as good as it should be.

Once i put a PR 2 Racing ECU on my 500XCW, the gap thing is a non issue. Just don't notice it anymore.


As mentioned, if you're more dunes than desert, than close ration would be fine.

 

[coryf89]

Why would an 18” be nice in the desert? Not sure if he’s running a paddle. But 19 is what you want in the desert/sand. 18” is for more sidewall if you’re a rough Rocky Mountain rider.

The suspension and transmissions are not the same as the sxf. The suspension is softer which you don’t want. And the tranny is wider which you also don’t want. It’s little things. But they all add up.

 

[Jaynelson]

Why would an 18” be nice in the desert? Not sure if he’s running a paddle. But 19 is what you want in the desert/sand. 18” is for more sidewall if you’re a rough Rocky Mountain rider.

The suspension and transmissions are not the same as the sxf. The suspension is softer which you don’t want. And the tranny is wider which you also don’t want. It’s little things. But they all add up.

Believe the tranny is identical ... 5-spd tranny in each, same primary and secondary drives on each. AER fork on each... so pretty easy to firm/soften up either.

I'm a single track guy, so I always lean toward the 18" rear. Flats suck and more traction is good. Like I say the bikes are $300 apart 95% of the bike parts are shared, so it's a bunch of discussion about nothing really. One is definitely not going to do anything in the snow that the other won't.

 

[EOREGON]

I think your right I think the xc f has the same trans as the sx. Same with the husky, the fc and fx are the same bike except the rear 18" wheel, kick stand and larger tank.

 

[needpowder]

Yamahas are a bit ceaper and have a better battery/starter than the ktms. If you find a holdover or lightly used 16 fx it also comes with the kicker. Fx also has a massive stator.
The ktms are awesome bikes. Lighter than yamaha but in snowbike form the difference isnt as much.
The xc-w has a wide ratio transmission but the xc is the same as the sx.
I actually love the transmission on my fx.

 

[Motogeek33]

Don't knock the 500 EXC (or husky equiv.) as a snowbike unless you try it back to back. It doesn't "feel" or sound nearly as aggressive as a 450 MX'er, but it goes all the same places with way less drama. They come set up with a thermostat out of the box, large fuel tank, no air forks to worry about. The big flywheel and huge bottom end of the bike basically never stalls on you....it's a really easy bike to ride both winter and summer. The only place the tranny has ever been a problem for me is on the internet. If you are a trail rider in summer, it's probably the best choice. Probably the most versatile bike on the market....it's not the best at anything, but it's pretty damn good at everything (MX excluded).

Yes! There are many things that are only a problem "on the internet", like you said. I couldn't be happier with my 500 EXC as my year-round bike. "Too heavy", "won't rev" and "gappy tranny" are all non-issues for me. The idealistic micro-analysis by some guys, which somehow turns into gospel that gets repeated over and over by other guys trying to sound smart, just kills me sometimes. Just ride what you've got, have fun and don't listen to the internet "experts".

Oh, and I disagree with what you said the 500 not being the best at anything -- it's THE BEST all-round bike at doing everything well.

 

[coryf89]

ahhhh my bad...I was totally wrong. KTM did a sneaky little trick...

https://www.dirtrider.com/2016-ktm-xc-f-models-first-impression

"The 250 and 350 XC-F both get a 6-speed transmission (different ratios), while the 450 XC-F stays with a 5-speed and identical rations to the motocrosser. And that’s it."

the 450 is still a 5 speed... the other two (250 and 350) got changed to a 6 speed!!! thats where I was all confused.

in that case, yeah the xcf would be the better model seeing as how youre going to dirtbike it in the summer still. my bad! learned something new today.

 

[EOREGON]

Yamahas are a bit ceaper and have a better battery/starter than the ktms. If you find a holdover or lightly used 16 fx it also comes with the kicker. Fx also has a massive stator.
The ktms are awesome bikes. Lighter than yamaha but in snowbike form the difference isnt as much.
The xc-w has a wide ratio transmission but the xc is the same as the sx.
I actually love the transmission on my fx.

Yep looks like the Yamaha would be about $800.00 cheaper than the Husky FX450. I'm sure that gap would be bigger if I went KTM.

 

[EOREGON]

how come people are recommending ktm 350s?!? 450 minimum...come on guys. we need all the power we can get. even my big bore 520 isnt enough sometimes... and were getting 350 recommendations?! why???


also, whats with the WR and EXC recommendations? ive been told you want to avoid wide ratio, offroad, 6 speed transmissions. you want the bottom end, grunty SXF transmissions.

ive been racing dirtbikes competitively for 15 years. KTM is a way higher quality than yamaha. brakes, clutch, suspension, overall quality. honda 4 strokes left a sour taste in my mouth. I dont trust them and their TI intake valves.

ktm sxf is where its at for snowbikes. the electrical is a tad weak, but thats an easy upgrade.

the offroad KTMs (EXC, XCW) really shine with their 18" rear wheel, larger tanks, no linkage rear shocks, headlight, and 6 speed wide ratio trannies. when buying a snowbike, only 2 of those things benefit us (larger tank and light). youre paying extra for better parts in the rear and and not even using them. better off getting the SXF version, and adding a LED light and larger tank yourself. win win.

I've never really heard any down side to Yamaha reliability or build quality though, anything specific?I had heard that the Hondas valves were less than stellar.

I would be running a dedicated paddle tire for the sand so the 18 vs 19 really won't matter.

I really think the cross country options from Yamaha, Husqvarna or KTM would be more than enough for me. I'm not in my 20's anymore and don't feel the need to launch a bike off a cornice with my buddies to see who can make one fly farther. Trust me I've done my fair share of that kind of stuff and am now starting to pay for it, lol.

So I'm down to:

Husqvarna FX450
KTM 450 XC F
Yamaha YZ450FX
Yamaha YZ450F

In no particular order btw

If i did the YZ450F I'd need to add a kick stand but thats probably about it, the reason its in the running is because of the bluetooth tuning. If the FX had that the F woulf be out.

 

[needpowder]

The F and Fx are totally different bikes. The F is basically all new from the ground up (as you probably know). The fx is mostly unchanged from its release in 16. I bet you could find a holdover 17 fx for almost 2 g’s cheaper than an 18 F.
But, I have heard nothing but good about the new yamaha, and it will probably be my next snowbike.

 

[M5-]

For what you are talking here if money was no object I would buy the KTM but in the real world for all the things you want this bike to do I would buy the FX. It sounds like it will get a lot of use, both sand and snow which are both really hard on a bike. You can put a top end on a Yamaha for a lot less money than the comparable KTM parts cost. You'll be surprised how fast you get to 100 hours on the engine.


M5

 

[rmk156]

17 KTM 300 XC-W is my choice and I love it....Altho I ride single track in the summer (Not Desert) and Snowbike in winter!!!This thing is awesome. I'm running the Timbersled Long track and did the head kit,scalvinie pipe and the cdi box and Lectron carb all from slavens....It Rips as a snowbike....

Last two years I ran the Yammi yz450 F this 300 does MUCH better on the snowbike

I'm 230lb of beer belly and 48 yrs old.....Maybe not your best rider, but old school twostroke smoke rules...my2ctswrth

 

[EOREGON]

So went and rode the Yamaha 450F and FX today, of those two the F destroys the FX. I was surprised but the feel of the F and the power difference is pretty big.

Also rode the KTM 450XC F, seemed more like the FX in the power department but much more nimble. They are really proud of that KTM though, like $1200.00 more proud than the YZ450F.

Going later today to ride the Husky FX450.

So far I really like the YZ450F, its been several years since I've been on a dirt bike. Almost forgot just how much fun they are to ride........

 

[EOREGON]

17 KTM 300 XC-W is my choice and I love it....Altho I ride single track in the summer (Not Desert) and Snowbike in winter!!!This thing is awesome. I'm running the Timbersled Long track and did the head kit,scalvinie pipe and the cdi box and Lectron carb all from slavens....It Rips as a snowbike....

Last two years I ran the Yammi yz450 F this 300 does MUCH better on the snowbike

I'm 230lb of beer belly and 48 yrs old.....Maybe not your best rider, but old school twostroke smoke rules...my2ctswrth

Yeah until someone comes out with a solid DI two stroke I'm not terribly interested. I'm sure it works great but I'm not into single track. To bad really, I mean the sleds are all direct injection can't imagine why they haven't done it on the dirt bikes. I know they're coming, KTM will have the 250 smoker this year but only Europe's getting the 300 DI smoker.

Also I'm only 170 so I'm sure a 450 should haul me around pretty well.

 

[Misha Subo]

I'm only 145 lbs. so the 300 2T hauls me around as good or better than most on their 450 4Ts. Love it!!!