WMC...Unless you can back up your claims with some factual information, then your BS will continue to fall on deaf ears...and only furthers the point that you are not here for collaboration and cooperation, but instead to invoke a negative response.
I would challenge you to provide ONE avalanche report where a snowmobile has triggered an avalance that then caught a non-snomobiler in its path.
To claim that "...significant portions of Wilderness have been used as snowmobile playgrounds regularly and intentionally on a large scale for a decade." is only one persons opinion (and not an educated one). I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is a VERY small % of users who are abusing the system...most of the time it is probably by accident due to lack of knowledge of the boundaries (see how generalizations can work both ways).
And I challenge you to find one instance where I've said that "our land" means snowmobile only. I have assisted and ridden side by side with back country skiers and snowboarders too many times over the last several years to think that you are anything other than a greedy elitist who thinks you are deserving of your own private playground. YOU are the one trying to shut other user groups out, not us...
I find it interesting that the overwhelming message to come out of Thursdays meeting was the need for MORE access, not less...and this is from the same "majority" that you claim to represent.
Yes, I will agree when I am out to go ski touring that every other snowmobile rider that I encounter is a polite person, just normal good folks. As a matter of fact, when I ride my old snowmobile with skis strapped on, a certain number of skiers who see me seem to ... disapprove! I have had this conversation with snowmobile riders face to face out in the Forest, and it seems understood more easlily when face-to-face. But then the snowmobile riders track out the slopes quickly, because it is fun and that is their right, we are left with not much to ski after that. Unfortunately we know that some number of riders go into Wilderness. Please check for yourself with USFS Wilderness folks, the problem is well known and documented. Also there are many the many reports and some photos online of snowmobiles in Wilderness on various Forums. My group of friends and I have observed a lot of snowmobiles in Wilderness and reported it over several years. We saw seven snowmobiles in a group in the Wilderness last February from our summit, for example. We often see two snowmobiles together in Wilderness, and we see tracks in Wilderness every trip every year along the divide on the Ingalls drainage! The efforts to raise awareness may help that problem, that would be great.
We are talking about getting a very small part of the Forest for skiing and snowshoeing without snowmobiles. There are already some winter non-motorized areas in the area, and I believe that many snomo riders do not know that they exist. Unfortunately, even when this discussion goes to compromise and asking for smaller areas of the Forest, not the best riding, being made winter non-motorized, many here are alarmed that they will be shut out of the Forest, That is not our goal, and based on our meetings with USFS there would appear to be *no chance* that snowmobiles would be largely excluded from the Forest. USFS folks consider snowmobile riding first! We are trying to remind USFS folks to think about skiers, snowshoe hikers and winter campers outside of Wilderness also!
Our advocacy is about access, more access to untracked snowy slopes just like snowmobile riders want. 94 Ford guy made the good point that I agreed- that is if skiers had more good access to Wilderness that would be great! But that is not the situation, so non-motorized folks are trying to use the frontcountry or Forest near the car since it is not practical to get to the Wilderness.
The avalanche potential discussion is intended to encourage thought. You are correct, that does not occur regularly, but consider that potential. A skier who understands the potential would just leave an area of avalanche potential if snowmobile riders are around. It is true that a skier may not be able to get out of the hazardous area quickly enough when a rider shows up. I do not think riders may even see skiers many times, I am certain of it because I stand on a peak or ridge and watch many times! Riders are wearing helmets and paying attention to what they are doing, having fun.
WMC does not claim to represent a "majority", we have contact with hundreds of folks. People do not agree 100%, no one speaks for everyone. USFS folks have told us in meetings that one of the snowmobile Organizations for example does not speak for snowmobile riders, all are individuals and not 'controlled' by anyone. Same with skiers, who have their own opinions. WMC talks to a lot of folks and advocates based on that and based on our experience.
I appreciate your responses. WMC is not against snowmobiles and does not want to shut down the Forest to snowmobiles. What we ask causes concern, we are here trying to help your side understand our concerns and understand why we ask for some of the (non-Wilderness) Forest to be without snowmobiles. It is tough to come here and try to have our views understood, but we are trying. We feel shut out from many areas that we have used without snowmobiles for years or decades but now the great new machines are ridden to new places constantly, taking away areas from our use. As a result, our motivation is somewhat similar to your reaction here when you think we are trying to kick you guys out- but we are not in the big picture trying to ban snowmobiles, we want a part of the Forest designated winter non-motorized.
Thanks, very much, for the discussion.
