Install the app
How to install the app on iOS

Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.

Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.

  • Don't miss out on all the fun! Register on our forums to post and have added features! Membership levels include a FREE membership tier.

!!!!!Help Defend OUR Land!!!!

Thread Rating
5.00 star(s)
M

modsledr

Well-known member
I know it's short notice, but this is an important meeting for us to have representation. This is posted elsewhere, but I wanted to post the basics to get as many people to attend as possible.



WHO:
Representatives from DOI, USDA, and EPA will be present to hear your thoughts and to participate in a conversation with you about America’s Great Outdoors.

WHAT:
Opportunities to share your ideas in breakout groups along with presentations by senior officials from DOI, USDA, EPA, and expert panel discussions.

WHEN:
Thursday, July 1st, 6:30 pm to 9:00 pm

WHERE:
Franklin High School, 3013 South Mount Baker Blvd., Seattle, Washington, 98144 http://www.franklinquakers.org/school_info/directions.htm




Please Register: The event is free and open to the public, but please let us know if you will attend so we can plan accordingly. Register by 10 pm, Monday June 28 by sending your name, telephone number and primary area of interest:


•Working land and open space conservation
•Recreation and public access
•Citizen stewardship, including youth engagement and environmental education.
•General
You may register through: http://www.discovernw.org/ago-signup.htm.

For more information on the America’s Great Outdoors Initiative and to submit comments on-line visit: www.doi.gov/americasgreatoutdoors/.
 
Good luck and THANK YOU

... to anyone that is able to go and just announce that you are in favor of increased responsible access.

sorry I can’t make it, but I truly would love to share some considerations, and trust me I am fighting the good fight every day, unfortunately I am often wore out from the biased paradigms that people with little or no experience with the real world have. Anyone is welcome to use or share anything I have posted on Snowest. I am a little afraid of negative repercussions with my job for pointing out the facts and actually caring about the world and the quality of life of all. So I will only include my e-mail if it truly needed and there is an opportunity to further communicate.


Powderminer’s thoughts…

What I am seeing, in real time, is the degradation happening in our mid to lowland forests by the same people trusted and empowered to manage and protect them, and the total injustice perpetrated to the recreational access (motorized and wheeled) is mind-boggling and just screams for some hard thought by the DOI (FS), all recreational users, State DOE, DNR, and all those who’d knowingly or ignorantly use false and maybe more often speculative ideas to demonize and over exuberantly limit responsible recreational access.

Federal land has been and is being managed by the Forest Service under very strict guides and potentially to some great environmental achievements; all the while motorized access has been and continues to be the most restricted with no real consideration to the type of space and terrain uniquely ideal for such recreation.

As an environmental sciences professional, what I am talking about is the fact that State DNR and private forest land, that happens to be located in arguably more environmentally critical areas, is not being effectively managed and almost exclusively excluded from any motorized and wheeled access. The land is being stripped of natural resources with little or no oversight for true environmental impacts. This is insane, there needs to be a comprehensive open discussion about all the lands use including federal, state and private to include needed natural resources and the recreational uses that can be managed for negligible impact. I intend to further point this disgusting mismanagement out to the proper authorities in other venues.

As an outdoorsman, conservationist, father, concerned citizen, and utilitarian; I am interested in the management of public land effectively and fairly not as a tool of exclusion or punishment of a minority user group. There are 1,600,000+ hikers a year in Washington, the trails are manufactured and maintained by the use of motorized and non-motorized equipment to dig and cut a path through vegetation and topsoil to provide access to almost all locations in the state. Along these trails surrounding vegetation is contacted, removed, utilized for fire, shelter and collection. Many unintended trails are formed many in sensitive areas. These trails are easily seen from aerial photos. Careful observation of a majority of managed motorized trails has led me to believe that the impact from properly managed areas is of a similar impact as the non-motorized trails. A vast, staggering, infinite majority of these trails are off limits to any motorized or wheeled access. Most of the trails, roads, parking, etc. that is used by motorized and wheeled recreation are contained in a minute area used to access for these non-motorized trails. The infinite number of these trails are considered to be of little detriment, wouldn’t it be said that the same could be said of managed motorized trails and motorized non-trial forming (snowmobile) access? This limited access is continually shrinking and further limits applied by those without knowledge of the use or exposure and often with uninformed and blatant unjust bias directed at the users and not the activity.

Most of the motorized users are very conservation oriented seeking access to witness the glory of the environment. Many motorized recreation groups are made up of people who believe in leaving the land as it was, and often organize cleanup efforts and report violators. This very limited access to motorized users causes an over consolidation of this activity not managed for consideration such as; improved/considered locations (meeting users and managers requirements), leading to unfortunate abused and over impact on non-managed areas. Where improper and disgusting actions affect us all and are a clear sign that current restrictive measures are not working and possibly contribute to detrimental events.

The solution…
Working together to form a comprehensive partnership to actively manage the space including user groups to create more local access enhancing the ownership and caretaker rolls of the users. Increase access and engage users in the management of the access, maintenance and responsibility of the areas. Revisit excessive encompassing restrictions, which do not pertain or make sense to particular use/impact to allow proper recreation needs and allow for better location selection, less consolidation of distinct user groups and less impact on tighter areas.

Continued problems…
The fact that this meeting is taking place as far away from any true engagement of the user groups as possible. The reinforced ignorant ideology of “management” is a bad word when pertaining to public land.

If I really didn’t care I’d say, “that’s fine stay in Seattle, manage from afar, and I’ll get the rest of my useful recreation time in adequately”. I do care; I am on the front lines of responsible shared, multi-use recreational access and enjoyment for present and future generations. Stay in Seattle, Olympia, Washington D.C. to snub your nose at truly very low impact responsible motorized access; all the while, the true critical areas are being raped by the State and polluted as a direct result of poor policy and the lack of open engaging management.

Sincerely, on the lookout for solutions,

Brett
brettnliz2004@yahoo.com
 
It seems pretty clear that the Forest Service is managing their land for the allotted recreation money and for catastrophic fires to generate more reaction and funding probably to no fault of the majority of the workers their, but under direction of idealist that have been promoted over the years.

The State is logging all their land, some of it seems to be managed, eastern Washington, for the health of the forest and the West side is just clear cut for revenue. And no matter what they say the money is for it probably predominantly goes to the "General Fund".

Meanwhile motorized recreation is further restricted in the National Forest and expanded Wilderness and excluded in those areas that the state is allowing harvesters to run all over the place. I’m all for it, log it all but don’t tell me my motorcycle is damaging the land. Make me a track in the middle of the clear cut, it obviously was not that ecologically important?
 
!!!!!Help Defend OUR Land!!!! Reply to Thread

Thanks for the post, looks like their trying to sneak this under our radar good catch. I know that it's last minute but I expected to see a better response from the snowmobile community, I'll be there. Thanks to Modsledr, Ruffy, Eddy for representing!
 
I will ride with ya and buy beer!
Who what when? Pm me or call me if you have the number... I normally take the bike into work, so I need to know if you want me to drive...

Or if you have a helmet you can always ride on back.. I might have a football helmet you could wear..
 
The State is logging all their land, some of it seems to be managed, eastern Washington, for the health of the forest and the West side is just clear cut for revenue. And no matter what they say the money is for it probably predominantly goes to the "General Fund".


SR:

Pine forests (eastern WA) can be selectively cut. The trees that are left can grow bigger. (or) New trees can (it is possible to) grow amongst old trees.

Douglas fir forests (western WA) need to be clear cut - typically done in a patchwork method. The clear cut simulates a natural forest fire, and allows new trees to grow in the "de-forested" area.

Speak (in a civil manner) to Forest Service foresters (people with a degree/training in forestry science or forest engineering) and you can learn quite a bit.
 
Meeting

Looks like I will see you there. I am in Seattle on business already.

I don't need no stinking helmet! Besides it makes it hard to drink beer!
 
!!!!!Help Defend OUR Land!!!! Reply to Thread

Went to the meeting, saw Ruffy, thanks for your input. Eddy looked for you, had a DVD for you from Baker ride, sorry I missed you. Modsledr missed you, thanks for the heads up on the meeting. Thanks to all who voiced their concerns and represented our sport. :hail:
 
CG and I went to the meeting...interesting format. I heard a lot of good ideas about collaboration and cooperation between user groups...everyone in my group was civil, and we had a wide range of users (motorized, hunters, urban users, boy scouts, youth groups, sierra clubbers, etc...)...we'll see.
 
Meeting was pretty interesting.. The big topic in our group was access. Getting more access for more users. Mountain bikers were pretty vocal on that issue. One thing I concluded from the meeting was that the federal government should take better advantage of clubs and users to support the recreation needs. There is a huge volunteer workforce out there, and they are willing to put the time in to help improve their sport.

Quote of the day was..

"I spent a lot of time helping to get the Alpine Wilderness, and now I can't access it."

He was specifically talking about the gate closures on the middle fork in North Bend.

Very interesting meeting though, I don't think I heard much about exclusion there at all, just that it has gone too far.
 
CG and I went to the meeting...interesting format. I heard a lot of good ideas about collaboration and cooperation between user groups...everyone in my group was civil, and we had a wide range of users (motorized, hunters, urban users, boy scouts, youth groups, sierra clubbers, etc...)...we'll see.

Collaboration and cooperation is a great concept.
 
yep...you should try it some time.

A good start in cooperation and collaboration is simply holding a worthwhile discussion. WMC has stated from the start that your use- snowmobile enthusiasts- is a legitimate use of the forest. WMC associates ride snowmobiles, some have top of the line machines, some of us ride mostly roads. WMC has tried to explain what are problems for other users as a result of increasing terrain use by snowmobiles- disappearing stashes where we had co-existed for years.

Indeed, WMC is trying to meet with snowmobile riders and has invited Officers of WSSA and sent a message to SAWS for a meeting to discuss the issues that we advocate. Some folks from this Forum have done well to hold a discussion about designation of non-motorized proposals and about snowmobiles riding into closed or Wilderness areas, thus denying other users their share. WMC has met with someone in the snowmobile industry for this discussion, and has been here trying to have a conversation. WMC has been discussing these issues between Forest users, and between the noise some folks here and on TAY have brought in some great ideas!

Something to consider is why has the advocacy lead by WMC developed? Does anyone really believe that WMC is one or a few guys, or that the issues are just from a few guys? That would be erroneous. The issues that WMC is bringing occur all over the western Forests. Do folks here think that nothing will change, you will just talk as you do and ride without any further restrictions and without having to share the Forest with others? Have you indeed considered other's uses, their sharing of the Forest with their family, in the midst of speeding snowmobiles highmarking any open slope to be found? In reply do you really think non-motorized Forest users should mix in with snowmobile riding on the same terrain? WMC and many of the majority Forest users believe that there is an incompatibility.

Indeed, did any of you ask a skier who used that mountain 25 years ago, or even one year ago in quiet solitude before you found the stash, his opinion of snowmobiles arriving on that terrain and transforming it into their play area? Sure, it is your right to lawfully ride the Forest. Similarly it would be lawful for sake of argument for 400 skiers to block an entire Sno Park with their Subarus having Sno Park Permits, then on skis block the entire groomed Road so that snowmobile riding would be difficult or ruined. Turn that back at you folks- do your lawful uses eliminate the uses of others who want to share the Forest with their family also? If so, what should others do- just stay out of the Forest, out of the way of snowmobiles? Go to Wilderness? We have been 'sharing' Wilderness with snowmobiles for many years. And access to Wilderness makes it impractical, most of it requires long days or overnight to approach on skis.

Good job and thank you to the folks out there trying to make a positive change posting signs etc!

Thanks.
 
Last edited:
WMC...your comments continue with the same rhetoric. You continue to talk about cooperation and colaberation, and yet you reference "stashes" of great areas like they are yours and yours alone. Because your rode there 25 years ago means that no other user groups can ever enjoy those areas...besides you? It doesn't get much more elitist than that.

Your comparisons are laughable. Yes, it would be unlawful for you to block others out of an area. We do not block you out of any areas. We are more than happy to ride side by side with you in the back country. I have towed/ridden back country skiers many times to help them get further back to the prime spots, where we BOTH enjoyed the same areas.

The snowparks you speak of are paid for by snowmobile license tab fees. Without us, there would be no snowpark and grooming program.

If you coming on here has inspired more involvement with the NFS to improve signage for wilderness boundaries, then that is 100% positive.

BUT...if you think that closing off more land will elimitate the problem of a few bad apples, then your are the naive. I dont believe for a second that you really care about the extremely small percentage of individuals who are willing to ignore the rules. You simply want your own private playground at the exclusion of all other usre groups...that is just greedy and sad.
 
WMC...your comments continue with the same rhetoric. You continue to talk about cooperation and colaberation, and yet you reference "stashes" of great areas like they are yours and yours alone. Because your rode there 25 years ago means that no other user groups can ever enjoy those areas...besides you? It doesn't get much more elitist than that.

Your comparisons are laughable. Yes, it would be unlawful for you to block others out of an area. We do not block you out of any areas. We are more than happy to ride side by side with you in the back country. I have towed/ridden back country skiers many times to help them get further back to the prime spots, where we BOTH enjoyed the same areas.

The snowparks you speak of are paid for by snowmobile license tab fees. Without us, there would be no snowpark and grooming program.

If you coming on here has inspired more involvement with the NFS to improve signage for wilderness boundaries, then that is 100% positive.

BUT...if you think that closing off more land will elimitate the problem of a few bad apples, then your are the naive. I dont believe for a second that you really care about the extremely small percentage of individuals who are willing to ignore the rules. You simply want your own private playground at the exclusion of all other usre groups...that is just greedy and sad.

Thanks for the discussion. The incompatibility does not result from a few "bad apples." Folks riding snowmobiles lawfully and properly do take away the use of the Forest in an area for snowshoeing and for skiing. Increased travel capability of snowmobiles recently allow more of the total acreage to be ridden and rutted- and the point is, some of that terrain often was traditionally used by skiers and snowshoers, and winter campers. The comparison to many skiers blocking snowmobiles would compare to what just one snowmobile can do to an entire mountain quickly- remove that mountain from use by many skiers or snowshoers.

In the past, USFS has created some winter non-motorized areas because of the reasons above. In recent years, offroad snowmobiling has constantly expanded and continues constantly, using more of the Forest. That use, lawful uses yes, that use affects many other Forest users, each having an equal right to use the Forest. At some point, in order to serve various users in multiple-uses, all sort of folks, families, some allocation of the resource is necessary.

The value of a discussion is to understand what is improtant for each user group, which areas may be shared and where are both user groups better served by separation.

The grooming program is fine, I paid for three snowmobile Registrations last season, we support that, but I ask does that give snowmobile riders complete ownership of the Forest? The areas in question are not the groomed snowmobile routes.

Thanks for the discussion.
 
Last edited:
Talk about corking a thread.

So now it's not about wilderness incursions, we're back to closing more area to sledders.
 
WMC...I'm curious, if you make an area non-motorized, who is going to pay to maintain access? You represent a very small user group trying to get limited access to a specific area...who do you expect to foot the bill for your private playground?


Talk about corking a thread.

So now it's not about wilderness incursions, we're back to closing more area to sledders.

With people/groups like WMC....it's rare that it's TRULY about wilderness incursions...that is a convenient tool they use to try to get more land closed off to groups other than their own. Even to the point that they will poach the wilderness themselves, then take pics of the tracks and point the finger at us.
 
Premium Features



Back
Top