Guide Tipping ($$??)

[Eagle5150]

Hi All:


We have a MN flatland group headed to Togwotee this week. This will be our third trip with the same group of 6.


We have three old guys (50 year olds) and three late teen boys. We have (and will be) renting sleds, getting guide service, and staying at the lodge.


The last two trips we have had a great time. The guide found great zones to hone our skills (all levels), kept us out of any avy areas, and brought us home safe. All good & no issues.


In return, we tipped the guide $200 (cash) per day (paid at the end of each day) for the 6 of us (the only ones in the group). Works our to $33 per person per day...


In 2016, he seemed very happy with this amount, but in 2017, not as much...he seemed "ok", but just not quite as happy...


In short, are we not being generous enough?


The Togwotee guide group is a small group, and we hope to come back for many years with our boys - don't want to be seen as cheapskates!


Thanks for any input!

 

[vector boy]

Just my 2 cents, but I think a tip should be reflected on the service provided. If he leads you into an area where everyone enjoys their day, has fun, and he goes above and beyond to help dig, doesn't get frustrated, and makes sure everyone is having a good time, his tip should reflect that. If he's being a jerk about digging, complaining about people not keeping up, tends to have an attitude about things, again, his tip should reflect that. I've never got a guide, nor do I really plan to, but I have heard multiple times that the guides at Tog tend to be pretty greedy when it comes to receiving tips. $33/person to me sounds pretty generous, but again, I haven't gotten a guide, don't know how your day was, and don't know how well those guides are compensated pay wise.

Another thing to consider is how much YOU make and expect out of a guide. If you treat him like another guy in the group that just leads you around, or if you expect him to dig anybody and everybody out, fix your sleds when they break down, and teach you how to ride, you should factor that into how much you tip as well.

 

[05900]

Hi All:


We have a MN flatland group headed to Togwotee this week. This will be our third trip with the same group of 6.


We have three old guys (50 year olds) and three late teen boys. We have (and will be) renting sleds, getting guide service, and staying at the lodge.

Sounds like package deal


The last two trips we have had a great time. The guide found great zones to hone our skills (all levels), kept us out of any avy areas, and brought us home safe. All good & no issues.


In return, we tipped the guide $200 (cash) per day (paid at the end of each day) for the 6 of us (the only ones in the group). Works our to $33 per person per day...

If only two of you go..? is that reasonable ($66)?? Big group more work.

In 2016, he seemed very happy with this amount, but in 2017, not as much...he seemed "ok", but just not quite as happy...


In short, are we not being generous enough?


The Togwotee guide group is a small group, and we hope to come back for many years with our boys - don't want to be seen as cheapskates!

There is a reason you're asking..!!


Thanks for any input!

Just my 2 cents, but I think a tip should be reflected on the service provided. If he leads you into an area where everyone enjoys their day, has fun, and he goes above and beyond to help dig, doesn't get frustrated, and makes sure everyone is having a good time, his tip should reflect that. If he's being a jerk about digging, complaining about people not keeping up, tends to have an attitude about things, again, his tip should reflect that. I've never got a guide, nor do I really plan to, but I have heard multiple times that the guides at Tog tend to be pretty greedy when it comes to receiving tips. $33/person to me sounds pretty generous, but again, I haven't gotten a guide, don't know how your day was, and don't know how well those guides are compensated pay wise.

The guide "fee" goes to the "House" (Tog) same as fishing guide,skiing guide,hunting guide etc. These guys live off of tips! Gas to go to work Groceries etc..Compensated piss poor from the "house"
How does that make a guide greedy? WTF?

Another thing to consider is how much YOU make and expect out of a guide. If you treat him like another guy in the group that just leads you around, or if you expect him to dig anybody and everybody out, fix your sleds when they break down, and teach you how to ride, you should factor that into how much you tip as well.

Up it to $40 ~ 50 per.

 

[Eagle5150]

Thanks for the input...


As MN boys with limited mountain experience & teens along, we are happy with the guided experience.


The whole group pulls, digs, and helps with stucks...


We expect the guide to find some good zones, keep us mostly out of trouble (especially the avy stuff), and provide some limited pointers to improve our skill set.


We view him as part of our group & not a "hired hand".


We have no problem with tipping a fair to generous amount, but also want a dollar or two left for beers at the Red Fox!

 

[cubby]

So how much does a guide cost when hired?

Never hired one or been around one so no idea here.

 

[Big D rmk700]

I guided for three years in the late 90's so tipping then was not what it is now but to me I believe that 200 a day seems like a good amount. I guess I don't know how they are paid out down there we were paid hourly not a lot but on top of that we were provided a sled to use and all meals were always cover either by the restaurant or clients so my tip was the icing on the cake. I remember this I am from Minnesota and midwesterners were the worst tippers . Once guided a group from Wisconsin for a four day trip and took them on four great rides and got a big fat 0 for a tip!!! Back then it was $200 a day for a guide for up to 10 riders.

 

[Dazzler]

I would say $200 per day tip (tax free) is more than generous... save some cash for the bar tender...

 

[polaris dude]

Wait wait wait... You are telling me that in addition to the $300 you probably pay to utilize his services daily you are tipping $200 on top of that and he wasn't thrilled? Assuming he gets paid like $20 an hour flat and you were out a full 8 hours that is something like $45 an hour to go snowmobiling with some dudes. To put this in context I had to get my doctorate to get paid a little better than this and I have the responsibility of quite a few people's health in my hands standing all day and taking care of people's medications in a shirt and tie. But this guy isn't happy riding what is likely a provided sled from the company to take some guys out for a couple day's worth of riding and getting paid good money. Clearly I chose the wrong line of work. Why go through years and years of competitive and grueling schooling with 100k+ of school debt to make decent money when I can just go be a guide, do what I love, and be upset only getting tipped $200 a day.

 

[89sandman]

When you do what you love for your job it becomes just that, a job.

 

[Blk88GT]

$200 seems more than fair, IMHO.

 

[Ryan-41]

Wait wait wait... You are telling me that in addition to the $300 you probably pay to utilize his services daily you are tipping $200 on top of that and he wasn't thrilled? Assuming he gets paid like $20 an hour flat and you were out a full 8 hours that is something like $45 an hour to go snowmobiling with some dudes. To put this in context I had to get my doctorate to get paid a little better than this and I have the responsibility of quite a few people's health in my hands standing all day and taking care of people's medications in a shirt and tie. But this guy isn't happy riding what is likely a provided sled from the company to take some guys out for a couple day's worth of riding and getting paid good money. Clearly I chose the wrong line of work. Why go through years and years of competitive and grueling schooling with 100k+ of school debt to make decent money when I can just go be a guide, do what I love, and be upset only getting tipped $200 a day.

I think this is spot on, you guys were being more than generous and if he is not appreciative, he does not deserve a tip.

 

[kbroderick]

Wait wait wait... You are telling me that in addition to the $300 you probably pay to utilize his services daily you are tipping $200 on top of that and he wasn't thrilled? Assuming he gets paid like $20 an hour flat and you were out a full 8 hours that is something like $45 an hour to go snowmobiling with some dudes.

a) it's not just going snowmobiling with some dudes, it's knowing enough about the weather, snow, and terrain to make sure those dudes get a good experience, regardless of their sledding abilities, fitness and current stability and snow conditions, without being in undue danger (I'm assuming that, like ski guides, sled guides would have the appropriate avy and first-responder certs)
b) I wouldn't assume $20 an hour. I'd love to find out I'm wrong, but I'd expect it would be closer to what experienced ski patrollers make and in the $10-14 range.

Clearly I chose the wrong line of work. Why go through years and years of competitive and grueling schooling with 100k+ of school debt to make decent money when I can just go be a guide, do what I love, and be upset only getting tipped $200 a day.

A good server at a busy high-end restaurant should be able to walk with at least $200 a day. That doesn't necessarily make it a sustainable career for many people.

I'm not saying it's ever good for a tipped employee to act ungrateful for a tip; if your customers are cheap bastards, it's not your place to call them out, and you really have no idea why they were cheap (well, unless you or your coworkers screwed up). However, at the same time, the customer/guide relationship creates a lot of stresses that make it very different from just going out and riding.

 

[Eagle5150]

As the OP, it is great to hear the discussion.


I am a small business owner, and understand the Togowtee Guides work for a very large corporation (Armark). I am sure they get paid squat per hour from their employer...so, I think tipping is a way to keep the good guides coming back year after year.


I am sure most days it is "just a job". Sick kids at home, dishwasher not working, wife complaining, etc, while you have to make some dudes on vacation happy... ("send it!!!!") but I am sure there are the blower pow days that make it all worth while!


In any case, sounds like $200 for 6 guys, for a full day, is OK & expected, and if the guide kicks ***, maybe $10-$20 more per person...

 

[polaris dude]

As the OP, it is great to hear the discussion.


I am a small business owner, and understand the Togowtee Guides work for a very large corporation (Armark). I am sure they get paid squat per hour from their employer...so, I think tipping is a way to keep the good guides coming back year after year.


I am sure most days it is "just a job". Sick kids at home, dishwasher not working, wife complaining, etc, while you have to make some dudes on vacation happy... ("send it!!!!") but I am sure there are the blower pow days that make it all worth while!


In any case, sounds like $200 for 6 guys, for a full day, is OK & expected, and if the guide kicks ***, maybe $10-$20 more per person...

See, I don't understand why this is normal or acceptable. Why don't businesses just pay people what they are worth and make prices reflect that? I'm not trying to go on a ranting rampage, but how is any joe schmoe supposed to know their guide doesn't make hardly anything when they pay a decent chunk of change for the services? Had this thread not come up I honestly might not have even realized that etiquette would dictate tipping at all. What's next tipping the lift boy at the ski resort? Better start slipping him a dollar per run

 

[kbroderick]

See, I don't understand why this is normal or acceptable. Why don't businesses just pay people what they are worth and make prices reflect that? I'm not trying to go on a ranting rampage, but how is any joe schmoe supposed to know their guide doesn't make hardly anything when they pay a decent chunk of change for the services? Had this thread not come up I honestly might not have even realized that etiquette would dictate tipping at all. What's next tipping the lift boy at the ski resort? Better start slipping him a dollar per run

Actually, a tallboy of PBR every few runs would be more traditional (or a 30-rack to the liftie locker room).

Getting off-topic, but for whatever reason, we have a decent number of professions in the U.S. where the employer of record is only expected to pay a small portion of the employee's take-home pay, and the only way to make a real living is via tips. Ski instructors, restaurants servers, bartenders, etc., all fall into that category. It's really kinda screwed up, because effectively you have as many bosses as you do customers.

Some restaurants, particularly in NYC, have tried moving to a non-tipped model—raise the price of food 20%ish to cover the cost of matching the tips, figure out the tipped income vs. hours ratio, and divide across—but I don't see that being a popular move across the country. At the restaurant I work at, we already catch flack because our prices seem high to some of our customers; if a large pepperoni went from the current $20.25 to $24.50 on the menu, even though that shouldn't actually affect the out-of-pocket cost after considering the no-tipping aspect, we'd probably have people walking out after looking at the prices.

 

[Cerialsledder]

$200 seems more than fair, IMHO.

Hell with my guide all I did was buy him dinner at the end of the day

Thanks Turbo!!!!

 

[iplocal]

I just did the Rasmussen clinic a few weeks back. It was roughly $300 per day per rider. We used our own sleds, gear, etc. 5 guys, $1500 per day. In other words the guide has no costs outside of labor and their own personal sled maintenance. We had one guide (Brett was not there) so explain to me why I would tip anything on top of the $1500 already paid. We were out for 8 hours which equals $187 per hour for LABOR. Even if the guide only gets 25% of that it is $375 for a single days work! Guiding people in mountains that you know like the back of your hand is not rocket science or running a marathon. I do it for free in Island Park for people I meet on Snowest and at no point in time do I feel entitled. Look at it another way, if you just rent a sled (no guide) would you tip the sled rental place? Look, these are not doctors, attorneys bankers, etc. These are generally younger 20 somethings with day jobs they work in summer and when things are slow in the winter. They also (when attached to a pro) get a ton of free or heavily discounted parts and gear.

The guy that started this thread has a slightly different situation where he is relying on the guide to provide sleds, fix sleds, show them terrain, teach them, and help with stucks. I might tip an extra $50 for for the group in that situation. But not hundreds on top of the thousands I am already spending. These guys are not waiters making minimum wage, keep it in perspective. Think how many other professions you tip that are making $50 an hour. Exactly, so why are tips required for this one? It does not make any sense.

 

[Jaynelson]

I think that sounds great/fair. He is probably fine with it as well, I would guess - probably just having an off day or something.

Some people on some days just aren't great at expressing gratitude or enthusiasm. I work a customer-service kinda job, and some days you have a cold or something and it's pretty tough to sound peppy. I've told people flat "sorry to sound so monotone, I have a sore throat" or whatever....because some days you just come across as kinda bummed, even if you're not.

 

[kbroderick]

The guy that started this thread has a slightly different situation where he is relying on the guide to provide sleds, fix sleds, show them terrain, teach them, and help with stucks. I might tip an extra $50 for for the group in that situation. But not hundreds on top of the thousands I am already spending. These guys are not waiters making minimum wage, keep it in perspective. Think how many other professions you tip that are making $50 an hour. Exactly, so why are tips required for this one? It does not make any sense.

Can anyone comment on actual data for sled guide wages, not just conjecture? I agree 100% that there's a big difference between someone with a base pay of $50/hr and $8-12 (maybe $14) an hour that a ski instructor might make. (well, as long as it's $50/hr for full-time hours, not just $50/hr for eight hours a day on six peak weekends). I'm going back to the ski instructor reference because they are (sort of) tipped employees, and the "that must be a cool job" factor is similar.

And yes, the numbers would absolutely be different if the guide is also an owner or part-owner of the operation in question, just as a guy who owns a bar should make a lot more money while tending bar than his employees do (well, assuming the drinks are priced high enough).

As I said, I'd be happy to be wrong, but the one reliable-looking reference I can find online (this article) suggests starting pay around $60/day; even at twice that, you're barely over $10/hr. It's not a big enough field to warrant its own listing in BLS's SOC, and the only remotely close listing lumps together lifeguards and ski patrol with a median wage under $10/hr.

 

[polaris dude]

Can anyone comment on actual data for sled guide wages, not just conjecture? I agree 100% that there's a big difference between someone with a base pay of $50/hr and $8-12 (maybe $14) an hour that a ski instructor might make. (well, as long as it's $50/hr for full-time hours, not just $50/hr for eight hours a day on six peak weekends). I'm going back to the ski instructor reference because they are (sort of) tipped employees, and the "that must be a cool job" factor is similar.

And yes, the numbers would absolutely be different if the guide is also an owner or part-owner of the operation in question, just as a guy who owns a bar should make a lot more money while tending bar than his employees do (well, assuming the drinks are priced high enough).

As I said, I'd be happy to be wrong, but the one reliable-looking reference I can find online (this article) suggests starting pay around $60/day; even at twice that, you're barely over $10/hr. It's not a big enough field to warrant its own listing in BLS's SOC, and the only remotely close listing lumps together lifeguards and ski patrol with a median wage under $10/hr.

I know bigD rmk was a guide so he is probably the best chance of getting reliable numbers. I doubt a current guide is going to give a high range because they probably don't want more competition or give any reason for people to stop tipping hundreds of dollars. All I am saying is if I pay hundreds of dollars for a daily service I don't really plan on tipping...unless they are guiding me to some snowbunnies