I have a greeny friend that keeps giving me crap for riding out West. She tells me that I scare and harm the animals. I ask her how she knows that the animals are being harmed and of course she has no evidence. Someone just drilled this bs response into her brain and now she gets all worked up over it. So I was wondering if there were any good reads or info out there to help support my case that sleds have no impact on animals.
Greeny Friends
- Thread starter M-ATE
- Start date
Unless you have a lot of time to kill, don't go down that endless road. Tell her the Game and Fish is on the case and they only open snowmobile season when Al Gore says it's OK.
Tell her that when we used to go set up the hunting camp, before the season is open, the deer would come to see what that noise was, coming from our motorcycles
They arent scared she is just very misinformed!!!!!
They arent scared she is just very misinformed!!!!!
tell her that public land is for everybody. chances are the house she lives in was once a habitat for wildlife...
land of hypocrisy...
land of hypocrisy...
thats one thing ive always wondered, how do they know it even botheres the animals. and how come it didnt used to bother them, people have been sledding for what? 40+ years or so and now all the sudden in the last little while the animals have gotten sick of it and have started speaking up? 
i see animals all the time when ridng and as long as nowone goes out of there way to disturb them they dont give a sh** were there.
i see animals all the time when ridng and as long as nowone goes out of there way to disturb them they dont give a sh** were there.
C
Comp 670
Well-known member
I know I have seen pics people have posted on here showing animals coming right up to parked sleds with riders on them..Birds,squirrels,deer and elk...Show her some of those pics and ask her if they are so scared why do they come right up to us on our sleds.
It allways amazes me how people talk about something they have never seen for themselves.She doesn't snowmobile but she knows sleds scare animals?
It allways amazes me how people talk about something they have never seen for themselves.She doesn't snowmobile but she knows sleds scare animals?
Then they smell a hippy and haul butt!
Just got the January 2009 issue of American Snowmobiler,
Take a look on page 4, the Editorial Title " ENOUGH "
it pretty much spells it out about the false information on snowmobile
polution, and wild life distrubance.
But we all need to help stop this crap from the "Tree Huggers" or our
sport will be gone before long.
The next thing the Tree Huggers will say is that snowmobiles cause
Pine Beetles, that are killing the forests. just my .02
Take a look on page 4, the Editorial Title " ENOUGH "
it pretty much spells it out about the false information on snowmobile
polution, and wild life distrubance.
But we all need to help stop this crap from the "Tree Huggers" or our
sport will be gone before long.
The next thing the Tree Huggers will say is that snowmobiles cause
Pine Beetles, that are killing the forests. just my .02
I was also thinking a compilation of animals next to sleds would be a good idea. So if anyone has pics of animals next to sleds feel free to post them.
And no she doesn't snowmobile but she is damn sure I am hurting those poor little critters. The noise just drives them nuts!
J
Jaynelson
Well-known member
In the west, the highways run smack through the forest. Everyday there are deer, elk, moose, squirrels, etc, getting mashed into the pavement by personal and comercial vehicles.
Now, sleds may or may not be an annoyance to certain animals, but it doesn't take a genious to figure out that virtually 0 animals are physically harmed or killed by snowmobiles, whereas vehicles are splattering critters all day, everyday. Keep in mind that most highways have been in the exact same spot for many decades. They operate 24/7/365 and many of these animal's family/friends have been pounded on the very stretch of road they continue to hang around....now tell me how much animals care about vehicles.
So, if this friend of yours owns or operates a vehicle, or has ever taken a bus or ridden in a cab....she is encouraging the killing of animals MUCH more than your snowmobile could ever hope to. It's so easy to make these guys hypocrites.
Now, sleds may or may not be an annoyance to certain animals, but it doesn't take a genious to figure out that virtually 0 animals are physically harmed or killed by snowmobiles, whereas vehicles are splattering critters all day, everyday. Keep in mind that most highways have been in the exact same spot for many decades. They operate 24/7/365 and many of these animal's family/friends have been pounded on the very stretch of road they continue to hang around....now tell me how much animals care about vehicles.
So, if this friend of yours owns or operates a vehicle, or has ever taken a bus or ridden in a cab....she is encouraging the killing of animals MUCH more than your snowmobile could ever hope to. It's so easy to make these guys hypocrites.
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J
JHG
Well-known member
I think it would be easier to just find a new friend.
What animals???
There isn't too many animals that stay above 5,000' in the middle of winter. Tell her she's scaring more animals then you are.
There isn't too many animals that stay above 5,000' in the middle of winter. Tell her she's scaring more animals then you are.
I heard that the animals are scared of the commerical jets flying over head too. We should definitely ground them.
Nearly every time we are out hiking and see a bear, deer, elk, rabbit, etc it takes off like someone shot it in the rear. I think hiking should be banned and the forests should be closed because anything on two legs scares all the animals.
Sorry I don't have any good articles to pass your way. She is obviously easily duped by the media. Let me guess, she voted for Obama??
Nearly every time we are out hiking and see a bear, deer, elk, rabbit, etc it takes off like someone shot it in the rear. I think hiking should be banned and the forests should be closed because anything on two legs scares all the animals.
Sorry I don't have any good articles to pass your way. She is obviously easily duped by the media. Let me guess, she voted for Obama??
I just hope obama doesnt ruin it for all of us
Below is the comment letter I sent for SAWS regarding Yellowstone this year. It has plenty of facts regarding wildlife and links as evidence for many of them. Quote her a few of these - that should burn her briches.
Thankfully, Judge Brimmer got the number of snowmobiles allowed in the park back up to 720 for this winter, but that was after I submitted this comment letter.
2008 Winter Use Plans Environmental Assessment Comment
Neither of the two proposed alternatives are acceptable to the Snowmobile Alliance of Western States (SAWS) for snowmobile access to Yellowstone National Park (YNP) past the 2008-2009 winter season. However, due to time constraints this year, we reluctantly support Alternative 2 as an emergency measure for the 2008-2009 season only. For future winter seasons we support the National Park Service (NPS) preferred Alternative 4 (1,025 snowmobiles allowed per day) from the 2007 Winter Use Plans Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS). We would like to commend YNP personnel for scrambling at the last minute to put forth some sort of plan to allow snowmobiles in the park this season after “the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia vacated and remanded to the NPS the 2007 Final Environmental Impact Statement, 2007 Record of Decision, and 2007 Final Rule” on September 15, 2008. We are still left with serious concerns regarding the number of sleds allowed per day in this plan as we have been with most all of the previous plans.
No where could we find in Judge Emmet G. Sullivan’s ruling that he instructed the NPS to go back and reduce the number of sleds from 540 to some lower magical number - 318 in this particular plan for this year - to somehow satisfy his opinion or the opinion of the plaintiffs (Greater Yellowstone Coalition and National Parks Conservation Association). Judge Sullivan did want the NPS to provide valid data as to why 540 sleds were not harmful to the park. It seems with all of the facts and data available regarding snowmobile use and the lack of negative affects they cause to the park’s environment/wildlife, that this should be a fairly easy task. In fact, we believe the NPS should be able to equally prove that 1,025 snowmobiles a day have less of a negative effect on the park’s environment/wildlife than does wheeled traffic throughout the year, especially during the heavy use warmer months.
Please provide us with the date the last summer use Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) was performed, and we would also like a copy of the EIS and Environmental Assessment (EA) on a CD mailed to the contact address provided in this comment letter. We searched the various NPS websites that contain numerous EIS and EA documents, and we could not find one for summer use (http://www.nps.gov/yell/parkmgmt/planning.htm). It is quite obvious to us that the effect on the environment and wildlife is much greater in the non-winter non-snowmobile use months (April – October) when 960,737 Automobiles, 49,115 Recreational Vehicles, and 5,871 Buses entered the park (2008). This compared to winter use months (December – March) when 18,290 Automobiles, 49 Recreational Vehicles, 109 Buses, 23,814 Snowmobiles and 2,653 Snowcoaches entered the park (2008). http://www.nature.nps.gov/stats/park.cfm
If emissions are the concern you should be aware that the snowmobile industry has done their part in reducing emissions from snowmobiles. When will the snowcoach industry do the same? "Modern snowmobile HC emissions are down by a factor of >12/vehicle and CO emissions by a factor of >2. The measured snowcoaches emit significantly more per mile than the snowmobiles. Measured snowcoach emissions of CO, even when calculated per passenger mile, now exceed modern snowmobile emissions". http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journa...re_bishop.html
Snowmobiles do not put unreasonable stress on wildlife. Numerous studies have shown that wildlife are more stressed and “fear flight” far more often by the sudden unannounced presence of approaching humans on foot (cross-country ski/snow-shoe recreationists) than they do by the well observed appearance of snowmobilers. Snowmobilers can be heard by ungulates at a greater distance than non-motorized users can be heard, which in turn gives wildlife ample opportunities to calmly move off trails into nearby denser vegetation, thus avoiding last minute “fear flight” as when startled by the sudden unannounced presence of non-motorized users which are perceived by ungulates as predators.
One such recent study found that “ski trails seem to displace mule deer to greater distances than occurs along snowmobile routes” (Recreation Effects on Wildlife [2002] - Bill Gaines, Forest Service Wildlife Biologist, Wenatchee National Forest). Another study states “snowmobiles appear less distressing than cross-country skiers, and for several ungulate species, the greatest negative responses were measured for unpredictable or erratic occurrences”. This study also states “Greater flight distances occur in response to skiers or individuals on foot than to snowmobiles, suggesting that the most detrimental disturbances to the wintering animal is that which is unanticipated.” (Effects of recreation on Rocky Mountain Wildlife [1999] – Ungulates). “Harassment and displacement of wildlife, even if inadvertent, probably occurs more often than we know. Boating, camping, hiking, fishing, and other popular activities, including simply driving along the park’s roads, cause wildlife to modify their behavior and use of habitats. Only by careful monitoring of animal populations can we infer when human activities are causing too much stress to individual animals or to the health of their local populations. Outside the park, continued population growth and land development cause competition between humans and animals for living space.” (NPS http://www.nps.gov/yell/parkmgmt/upload/preserving.pdf)
Wildlife is also seriously impacted by wolves. This is a fact according to several sources, including 2008 NPS documents and recent NPS biologists comments which include; “1995-96 - “31 wolves from Canada relocated to Yellowstone…as of January 2008, 443 wolves live in 51 packs in the greater Yellowstone area. 171 wolves live in Yellowstone National Park…some people are now concerned because elk counts have declined approximately 50% since 1994”. (Reference: Park Issues - http://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/resourceandissues.htm). “Park wide we estimate 2200-2700 ungulates (mostly elk, but also including moose, deer, bighorn sheep, pronghorn antelope, and bison) are killed by wolves per year. This is out of an estimated 30,000-35,000 elk that use YNP sometime during the year.” (2006 - Comment by Michael J. Yochim, Ph.D. National Park Service).
Summer vehicle traffic in the park is also much more of a fatal threat to wildlife than snowmobile traffic. “During 1998, 88 large mammals are known to have been fatally struck by vehicles in the park; the annual average from 1989 to 1997 was 113. This tally does not include animals that may have been hit and died from their injuries later away from the road. Because of their large number, elk are the most frequent road fatalities, followed by mule deer.” http://www.nps.gov/yell/parkmgmt/upload/preserving.pdf
“Prior to the beginning of mandatory commercial guiding for all snowmobilers, we lost 1 or 2 animals due to snowmobiles per year. Since 2003, when guiding was instituted, there have been no wildlife fatalities.” (2006 - Comments by Michael J. Yochim, Ph.D. National Park Service)
The public deserves a plan that is based on science; not politics and emotion. SAWS would hope that the NPS agrees and will go back to put together a bullet proof (non-court overturning plan - based on such science showing that although ALL forms of non-motorized human and motorized vehicle interaction with wildlife will cause some level of disturbance, but that snowmobile use is one of the least of such disturbances.
Sincerely,
Dave Hurwitz
Chairman, Snowmobile Alliance of Western States
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Just did a little research and found this.
BEHAVIORAL RESPONSES OF BISON AND ELK IN YELLOWSTONE TO SNOWMOBILES AND SNOW COACHES
John J. Borkowski1,4, *P. J. White2, *Robert A. Garrott3, *Troy Davis2, *Amanda R. Hardy3, and *Daniel J. Reinhart2*
1Department of Mathematical Sciences, Montana State University, Bozeman, Montana 59717 USA
2National Park Service, Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming 82190 USA
3Department of Ecology, Montana State University, Bozeman, Montana 59717 USA
Managers of public lands are charged with protecting some of our most important natural resources and ecosystems, while providing for their use and enjoyment by visitors. Almost one million visitors entered Yellowstone National Park by motorized means on snowmobiles (87%) or snow coaches (13%) during 1992–2003. Most vehicles toured the central portion of the park where bison (Bison bison) and elk (Cervus elaphus) concentrate in geothermal areas. We sampled >6500 interactions between groups of these species and groups of snowmobiles and snow coaches (collectively, OSV, over-snow vehicles) during five winters (1999–2000, 2002–2004). Multinomial logits models were used to identify conditions leading to behavioral responses. Elk responded three times as often (52%) as bison (19%) during interactions with groups of snowmobiles and snow coaches due to increased vigilance responses (elk, 44%; bison, 10%). However, the frequency of higher-intensity movement responses by bison and elk were similar (6–7% travel, 1–2% flight, <1% defense) and relatively low compared to other studies of ungulates and snowmobile disturbance. The likelihood of active responses by bison and elk increased significantly if animals were on or near roads, groups were smaller, or humans approached. The likelihood of an active response by bison decreased within winters having the largest visitation, suggesting some habituation to snowmobiles and snow coaches. There was no evidence that snowmobile use during the past 35 years affected the population dynamics or demography of bison or elk. Thus, we suggest that regulations restricting levels and travel routes of over-snow vehicles (OSVs) were effective at reducing disturbances to bison and elk below a level that would cause measurable fitness effects. We recommend park managers consider maintaining OSV traffic levels at or below those observed during our study. Regardless, differing interpretations of the behavioral and physiological response data will continue to exist because of the diverse values and beliefs of the many constituencies of Yellowstone.
Keywords: Akaike information criterion (AIC), behavior, bison, Bison bison, Cervus elaphus, elk, multinomial
http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/1051-0761%282006%29016%5B1911%3ABROBAE%5D2.0.CO%3B2?cookieSet=1&journalCode=ecap
BEHAVIORAL RESPONSES OF BISON AND ELK IN YELLOWSTONE TO SNOWMOBILES AND SNOW COACHES
John J. Borkowski1,4, *P. J. White2, *Robert A. Garrott3, *Troy Davis2, *Amanda R. Hardy3, and *Daniel J. Reinhart2*
1Department of Mathematical Sciences, Montana State University, Bozeman, Montana 59717 USA
2National Park Service, Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming 82190 USA
3Department of Ecology, Montana State University, Bozeman, Montana 59717 USA
Managers of public lands are charged with protecting some of our most important natural resources and ecosystems, while providing for their use and enjoyment by visitors. Almost one million visitors entered Yellowstone National Park by motorized means on snowmobiles (87%) or snow coaches (13%) during 1992–2003. Most vehicles toured the central portion of the park where bison (Bison bison) and elk (Cervus elaphus) concentrate in geothermal areas. We sampled >6500 interactions between groups of these species and groups of snowmobiles and snow coaches (collectively, OSV, over-snow vehicles) during five winters (1999–2000, 2002–2004). Multinomial logits models were used to identify conditions leading to behavioral responses. Elk responded three times as often (52%) as bison (19%) during interactions with groups of snowmobiles and snow coaches due to increased vigilance responses (elk, 44%; bison, 10%). However, the frequency of higher-intensity movement responses by bison and elk were similar (6–7% travel, 1–2% flight, <1% defense) and relatively low compared to other studies of ungulates and snowmobile disturbance. The likelihood of active responses by bison and elk increased significantly if animals were on or near roads, groups were smaller, or humans approached. The likelihood of an active response by bison decreased within winters having the largest visitation, suggesting some habituation to snowmobiles and snow coaches. There was no evidence that snowmobile use during the past 35 years affected the population dynamics or demography of bison or elk. Thus, we suggest that regulations restricting levels and travel routes of over-snow vehicles (OSVs) were effective at reducing disturbances to bison and elk below a level that would cause measurable fitness effects. We recommend park managers consider maintaining OSV traffic levels at or below those observed during our study. Regardless, differing interpretations of the behavioral and physiological response data will continue to exist because of the diverse values and beliefs of the many constituencies of Yellowstone.
Keywords: Akaike information criterion (AIC), behavior, bison, Bison bison, Cervus elaphus, elk, multinomial
http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/1051-0761%282006%29016%5B1911%3ABROBAE%5D2.0.CO%3B2?cookieSet=1&journalCode=ecap
D
dcturbo
Well-known member
Also!!! According to the Blue Ribbon Coalition, Yellowstone this year will see a maxium of 318 sleds per day, Yellowstone is open to sledding for approx. 18 weeks. So easy math thats 126 days X 318 sleds per day = 40,068 SLEDS for the winter season.. give and take the employees add 250 more.
Total 40,318 sleds... Now according to NPS of Yellowstone the avg vehicle count for the summer is 1.5 MILLION!!!!!! AND all of the animals are out and not hibernating or moving to the lower range into the re***e!!!
I just love argueing with these liberals..
Total 40,318 sleds... Now according to NPS of Yellowstone the avg vehicle count for the summer is 1.5 MILLION!!!!!! AND all of the animals are out and not hibernating or moving to the lower range into the re***e!!!
I just love argueing with these liberals..
