Gas could fall to $2 if Congress acts

[Ollie]

Hybrid and electrical make more sense. We have the tech and the infastructure to make it a serious endeavor.

But we don't have the infastructure to handle electric cars.
Take California, they have rolling black outs now. Imagine what would happen if they had a few million electric cars on top of that. Plus they are taking all their coal fired electric plants offline in 2010. They arn't renewing their licence to operate.

We would need to build a chingo of nuclear plants to run electric cars in this country.

 

[Dogmeat]

But we don't have the infastructure to handle electric cars.
Take California, they have rolling black outs now. Imagine what would happen if they had a few million electric cars on top of that. Plus they are taking all their coal fired electric plants offline in 2010. They arn't renewing their licence to operate.

We would need to build a chingo of nuclear plants to run electric cars in this country.

Ok so California is removing all their power plants from that state.

I see, what are they going to, nuclear?

Then when they have more blackouts, they're going to blame "speculators" I bet

 

[Wade]

California only has about 3% of the state's power made by coal fired power plants. They'll just phase them out. They are mostly worried that contracts with out of state providers, will be met by coal fired power plants.

The greenies don't mind building more power plants to power electric cars. They'll just want to be there to choose what kind of power plants are allowed, and how much scrubber technology is required to build a new plant. Not to mention, take the opportunity to force upgrades to old power plants.

Right now, automobile pollution is coming from 200 million individual tax payer owned vehicles. Kind of like herding cats to make 200 million people do "the right thing". But, if you centralize all your pollution into power plants, well then you can just keep squeezing the power companies for better scrubbers, carbon sequestering, etc...... Until the cost of driving your electric is outragous. After all a licensed power company has no choice, if they want their generation license to continue. And what do they care, they'll just pass the cost on to you and me.

 

[Dogmeat]

California only has about 3% of the state's power made by coal fired power plants. They'll just phase them out. They are mostly worried that contracts with out of state providers, will be met by coal fired power plants.

The greenies don't mind building more power plants to power electric cars. They'll just want to be there to choose what kind of power plants are allowed, and how much scrubber technology is required to build a new plant. Not to mention, take the opportunity to force upgrades to old power plants.

Right now, automobile pollution is coming from 200 million individual tax payer owned vehicles. Kind of like herding cats to make 200 million people do "the right thing". But, if you centralize all your pollution into power plants, well then you can just keep squeezing the power companies for better scrubbers, carbon sequestering, etc...... Until the cost of driving your electric is outragous. After all a licensed power company has no choice, if they want their generation license to continue. And what do they care, they'll just pass the cost on to you and me.

I keep hearing all this wonderful talk about carbon sequesteration and how "we can do it" and all this but I've been hearing this talk for the last 10 years.

Natural gas is a FAR cleaner fuel when burned than coal, even so-called "clean-coal" and the "clean natural gas" technologies already exist.

Have you ever noticed how on-the-bandwagon the Dems are about this environment thing and have been for the last 40 years, yet somehow magically back in the 70's they exempted something like %60 of the nation's coal-fired power plants from the new clean air act? I think it was in 76?

That couldn't have POSSIBLY been because of how heavily invested with the labor unions the Dems are, and coal mines work forces, especially the eastern mines and power companies, are HEAVILY union.

I still say that we could be an awful lot cleaner than we are right now if we made more use of natural gas as a fuel, even to generate electricity with.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't mine coal, or research coal sequesteration or whatever, I'm just saying that there are other technologies that really actually do already exist but half of washington won't let anybody develop those resources

I can't help but think that if carbon or coal or whatever sequesteration and all this was an even remotley mature technology that we wouldn't be seeing an even larger push for it based on all that ..

But, saying the greenies don't mind building more power plants to power electric cars ..

Yeah they do. They throw ***** fits when somone wants to build a freaking WIND TURBINE, they have heart attacks when somone wants to build a power plant.

 

[xrated]

But we don't have the infastructure to handle electric cars.
Take California, they have rolling black outs now. Imagine what would happen if they had a few million electric cars on top of that. Plus they are taking all their coal fired electric plants offline in 2010. They arn't renewing their licence to operate.

We would need to build a chingo of nuclear plants to run electric cars in this country.

I didn't say the gird was the best, but it would be a hell of alot cheaper to update the grid then it would be to build infastructe for other new fuel alternatives. And Cali is in a world all it's own...they kinda brought all this on themselves.

I read in The Bottomless Well, basically that North America is actually absorbing more carbon then it is releasing...interesting, no?

 

[ruffryder]

I keep hearing all this wonderful talk about carbon sequesteration and how "we can do it" and all this but I've been hearing this talk for the last 10 years.I can't help but think that if carbon or coal or whatever sequesteration and all this was an even remotley mature technology that we wouldn't be seeing an even larger push for it based on all that ..

I think that carbon sequestration is a not very popular anymore or at least it is not applicable to all areas. The clean coal experimental facility that was a DOE funded plan was pulled because of technical issues and I believe that carbon sequestration was supposed to be used in it. It was not going to be operating as good as predicted.

Natural gas is a FAR cleaner fuel when burned than coal, even so-called "clean-coal" and the "clean natural gas" technologies already exist.

You do not want all of your electricity generation to come from natural gas. In the 80's and 90's a lot of Nat. Gas plants were built and are still being built. They were generally used as peaker plants where they would only turn on to meet peak demand or regulation tasks. When companies started looking at putting them in they were happy with the low cost and clean performance of the units. The problem is that many of these generation type units have been built and they are getting to the point where natural gas demand is hitting a supply limit. Also, natural gas is getting more expensive so the cost/benefits of that type of generation are limiting.

I still say that we could be an awful lot cleaner than we are right now if we made more use of natural gas as a fuel, even to generate electricity with.

You are right it is really clean. But if the cost goes up so much that most of the heating done with natural gas gets replaced with fuel oil, did we really gain anything? I think natural gas should stay with home heating.

Have you ever noticed how on-the-bandwagon the Dems are about this environment thing and have been for the last 40 years, yet somehow magically back in the 70's they exempted something like %60 of the nation's coal-fired power plants from the new clean air act? I think it was in 76?

That couldn't have POSSIBLY been because of how heavily invested with the labor unions the Dems are, and coal mines work forces, especially the eastern mines and power companies, are HEAVILY union.

I doubt it was the unions, more to do with the fact that there wasn't much technology out there to make them clean. The east of the Mississippi gets most of there electricity from coal. They also have much more load on the east also. I think if they weren't exempt they would just be shut down, or electricity costs would be enormous. The other issue is capital. It would be nearly impossible to retrofit all coal plants at the same time from a financial perspective, especially if you payback periods are 50 or so years (might even be longer). That is my thoughts on it anyways.

 

[ruffryder]

Take California, they have rolling black outs now. Imagine what would happen if they had a few million electric cars on top of that.

You are using the term rolling blackouts incorrectly, or implying something with it that is incorrect. They do not have rolling blackouts as a planned operation procedure unless they have major transmission system failures. The last one was due to a line being out of service and then loosing a large transformer at a substation. It is not that there isn't enough power generated on the grid to serve them, just that when equipment goes down, it can be difficult to get it were you need it.

Most of the blackouts that came from the whole deregulation deal where falsely created. Transmission access was not granted (it was all bought up but not being used) and many generators were told to go offline to drop supply and increase prices.

 

[Wade]

But, saying the greenies don't mind building more power plants to power electric cars ..

Yeah they do. They throw ***** fits when somone wants to build a freaking WIND TURBINE, they have heart attacks when somone wants to build a power plant.

I didn't phrase that well. I think the greenies understand (learned the hard way) that if a city blacks out too many times, their entire environmentalism stack of cards is going to fall. People won't stand for their power being off, anymore than they'll stand for water not coming out of the kitchen sink. People start talking about bypassing environmental road blocks when their standing in the dark.

Basically, I think the greenies just want to be paid off and put in charge. They need to feel important. They want to tell everyone how to generate power, when, where, and start lots of feel good programs (such as compact fluorescents). It wouldn't be easy to get a power plant built, but it would get done, but don't expect it to be cheap. Besides, to get combustion engines off the road, they would compromise. But, there would still be a band of fruitcakes that would oppose it.

 

[Dogmeat]

I think that carbon sequestration is a not very popular anymore or at least it is not applicable to all areas. The clean coal experimental facility that was a DOE funded plan was pulled because of technical issues and I believe that carbon sequestration was supposed to be used in it. It was not going to be operating as good as predicted.



You do not want all of your electricity generation to come from natural gas. In the 80's and 90's a lot of Nat. Gas plants were built and are still being built. They were generally used as peaker plants where they would only turn on to meet peak demand or regulation tasks. When companies started looking at putting them in they were happy with the low cost and clean performance of the units. The problem is that many of these generation type units have been built and they are getting to the point where natural gas demand is hitting a supply limit. Also, natural gas is getting more expensive so the cost/benefits of that type of generation are limiting.




You are right it is really clean. But if the cost goes up so much that most of the heating done with natural gas gets replaced with fuel oil, did we really gain anything? I think natural gas should stay with home heating.



I doubt it was the unions, more to do with the fact that there wasn't much technology out there to make them clean. The east of the Mississippi gets most of there electricity from coal. They also have much more load on the east also. I think if they weren't exempt they would just be shut down, or electricity costs would be enormous. The other issue is capital. It would be nearly impossible to retrofit all coal plants at the same time from a financial perspective, especially if you payback periods are 50 or so years (might even be longer). That is my thoughts on it anyways.

As far as the supply of natural gas is concerned ... believe me, there are TRILLIONS of scf's of natural gas we can recover. Access to drilling and producing those areas is the problem, the same thing with oil. There's so much gas in the rockies it's unbelievable, but we can't access it.

 

[Dogmeat]

I didn't phrase that well. I think the greenies understand (learned the hard way) that if a city blacks out too many times, their entire environmentalism stack of cards is going to fall. People won't stand for their power being off, anymore than they'll stand for water not coming out of the kitchen sink. People start talking about bypassing environmental road blocks when their standing in the dark.

Basically, I think the greenies just want to be paid off and put in charge. They need to feel important. They want to tell everyone how to generate power, when, where, and start lots of feel good programs (such as compact fluorescents). It wouldn't be easy to get a power plant built, but it would get done, but don't expect it to be cheap. Besides, to get combustion engines off the road, they would compromise. But, there would still be a band of fruitcakes that would oppose it.

Sooooo in other words ..

It doesn't have a god damned thing to do with saving the environment, it's all about political power

Go figure

 

[powdersledder]

The only reasons oil prices are as high as they are right now is because of oil futures traders and the histiry of our actions. These speculators have nothing to do with the actual buying/selling of oil except that they "predict" what they think oil prices will be. We should still be paying $1/gallon but because of speculation we are paying $4/gallon. Current speculations say it will reach $7/gallon by summers end. Then what have we done every time gas prices shoot up? Nothing. Oil companies and OPEC know we are completely dependent on oil and we will continue to pay just about anything for it....Just look at the previous posts, people are already satisfied if gas prices stay at $4/gallon!! This is why prices keep going up.

And who actually thinks our economy will be able to withstand $7/gallon gas prices? Especially with a major byproduct of producing gasoline now being more expensive than the gasoline (Diesel). Farmers and truckers can barely afford to do business as is.

 

[xrated]

start lots of feel good programs (such as compact fluorescents). -interesting side trip Wade...I don't remember it, but I hear tell there was a huge push for fluorescents(like we use in shops) when they first came out. Thing was nobody wanted them because it may have been more efficent(not sure) but it wasn't economical. I bought into the CFL deal, with half my house(the half used the most) I still haven't seen a huge savings...but I got them for like 4 bucks a 4 pack and if they last 7 plus years I'm happy...hell I'm happy I don't burn my hand on them.

Bottom line, we won't do something just because it's efficent, it needs to be economical for the masses to join in.

 

[jonnyk]

Part of the reason gas prices are where they are is the fact that Americans in general are wasteful. Look at how dependent on gasoline the whole country is, then look at how much is wasted powering huge SUVs that carry no more than 1 passenger 90% of the time. If people were somewhat conservative in their gas consumption 10 years ago we wouldn't be where we are now.

As with anything in life, nothing ever stays the same. Gas could and probably will go down, but only if we change our ways and aren't as dependent on it. try walking to the 7-11 and burn off that 1/4 lb-er with cheese and fries. Go buy a bicycle for your 5km commute to work, carpool. Instead of *****ing about it think of ways that make sense and will help your pocket at the same time

 

[Ollie]

Part of the reason gas prices are where they are is the fact that Americans in general are wasteful. Look at how dependent on gasoline the whole country is, then look at how much is wasted powering huge SUVs that carry no more than 1 passenger 90% of the time. If people were somewhat conservative in their gas consumption 10 years ago we wouldn't be where we are now.

As with anything in life, nothing ever stays the same. Gas could and probably will go down, but only if we change our ways and aren't as dependent on it. try walking to the 7-11 and burn off that 1/4 lb-er with cheese and fries. Go buy a bicycle for your 5km commute to work, carpool. Instead of *****ing about it think of ways that make sense and will help your pocket at the same time

Better idea.
Elect politicians who will do their jobs.
We have enough oil in this country to produce everything we need now.
We don't need daddy DC forcing up the price of everything just because they can and the fact they are too fearful of the enviro-zealots calling them destroyers.

I am tired of saying this.
IT IS NOT THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO MANIPULATE THE PRICE OF FUEL.
It is their job to protect this countries infastruture and not allow hostile countries to dictate what we do and how.

As for electricity, you can thank the enviro's for that mess.
They blocked nuclear power.
They pushed wind power till they found it was bad for the birds. Now they are suing to shut them down.
There will never be enough rules and restrictions on coal plants to make an enviro-zealot happy enough to let it operate.
You can forget hydroelectric energy. The enviro-zealots and PETA are trying to put together a law suit to shut down lake Mead. They say it is inhumane to the fish that get ground up.
You can forget natural gas because the enviro-zealots won't allow enough drilling to produce the natural gas. In colorado they are proposing all kinds of new restrictions in an attempt to shut down most of the drilling, or as usual, make it SO expensive they companies will simply stop

The list goes on and on. If you make on enviro-nazi happy, another will sue. THERE IS NO WINNING with these idiots.

 

[ruffryder]

Better idea.
Elect politicians who will do their jobs.
We have enough oil in this country to produce everything we need now.
We don't need daddy DC forcing up the price of everything just because they can and the fact they are too fearful of the enviro-zealots calling them destroyers.

I am tired of saying this.
IT IS NOT THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO MANIPULATE THE PRICE OF FUEL.
It is their job to protect this countries infastruture and not allow hostile countries to dictate what we do and how.

As for electricity, you can thank the enviro's for that mess.
They blocked nuclear power.
They pushed wind power till they found it was bad for the birds. Now they are suing to shut them down.
There will never be enough rules and restrictions on coal plants to make an enviro-zealot happy enough to let it operate.
You can forget hydroelectric energy. The enviro-zealots and PETA are trying to put together a law suit to shut down lake Mead. They say it is inhumane to the fish that get ground up.
You can forget natural gas because the enviro-zealots won't allow enough drilling to produce the natural gas. In colorado they are proposing all kinds of new restrictions in an attempt to shut down most of the drilling, or as usual, make it SO expensive they companies will simply stop

The list goes on and on. If you make on enviro-nazi happy, another will sue. THERE IS NO WINNING with these idiots.

I am surprised that you don't think that increased global gas prices will lead to more production here in the US. Seems a lot of our resources get profitable over the 100 barrel mark. Make it twice that and there will be lots of production, drop it down to a third of that, and there won't be as much.

You got to pay to play here in the US, we aren't cheap.

Funny you want the government not to control prices, but then you state a direct means of controlling said prices. The market is getting to a point where the public are saying they want more conservation then exploration. It will be that way until conservation gets to its own diminished returns. I have yet to see a big impact on raised gas prices... until we do I think they are going to keep increasing.

Even if we don't get gas and oil from OPEC countries, all they need to do is to change market price, and our prices will change also. It won't matter if we buy all of our oil locally, we will be paying the global price, since it will be on the global market. I am curious why an oil provider would sell at a rate lower than market rate, I think they call that socialism? Think about it. The only way to change prices is to change the global price, nothing else.

 

[jonnyk]

Better idea.
Elect politicians who will do their jobs.
We have enough oil in this country to produce everything we need now.
We don't need daddy DC forcing up the price of everything just because they can and the fact they are too fearful of the enviro-zealots calling them destroyers.

I am tired of saying this.
IT IS NOT THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO MANIPULATE THE PRICE OF FUEL.
It is their job to protect this countries infastruture and not allow hostile countries to dictate what we do and how.

As for electricity, you can thank the enviro's for that mess.
They blocked nuclear power.
They pushed wind power till they found it was bad for the birds. Now they are suing to shut them down.
There will never be enough rules and restrictions on coal plants to make an enviro-zealot happy enough to let it operate.
You can forget hydroelectric energy. The enviro-zealots and PETA are trying to put together a law suit to shut down lake Mead. They say it is inhumane to the fish that get ground up.
You can forget natural gas because the enviro-zealots won't allow enough drilling to produce the natural gas. In colorado they are proposing all kinds of new restrictions in an attempt to shut down most of the drilling, or as usual, make it SO expensive they companies will simply stop

The list goes on and on. If you make on enviro-nazi happy, another will sue. THERE IS NO WINNING with these idiots.

ok let's keep wasting!!!!! great idea! typical americans, want every other country to change to benefit the americans but won't make sacrifices that would in the long run be better for the world and the US. No wonder every other country on this planet does not like Americans

 

[xrated]

Look at how dependent on gasoline the whole country is, -yes we are, but did you have a better idea that was more economical for covering the ground that we need? A better idea that would have advanced our country and tech to where we are? Sure wasn't gonna happen on horses...like I said we will keep going with the most ecoomical(not the most efficent) fuel available to us.

 

[jonnyk]

no i don't think I could have come up with a better idea, other than to not have wasted all that nice cheap oil in the past!

That being said, this "craziness" will spark new ideas and hopefully ones that are cheap and efficient.

That being said I don't see the gasoline engine leaving anytime soon, hopefully as technology advances they can make the damn engine more efficient. I remember reading somewhere that only about 30% of the energy created from the combustion makes it to the wheels.

 

[ruffryder]

no i don't think I could have come up with a better idea, other than to not have wasted all that nice cheap oil in the past!

I got one, tax the crap out of gas as use the money to pay for public transportation infrastructure. Jeez, it is not new, Europe has been doing it strong for the last 30 years. Even China has a better public transportation system. Nothing new, just spend some fricken money on it.

I remember reading somewhere that only about 30% of the energy created from the combustion makes it to the wheels.

It is the maximum theoretical efficiency.. or it is somewhere around there 30-35%. Diesels are around 40% maximum.

wiki engine efficiency

Note these are maximums for a specific point in time, not average efficiencies... they would be quite a bit lower. This is where series hybrids start having an advantage, they turn on to max torque (max efficiency) and produce electricity and then turn off. So your average efficiency is much higher than with a regular engine. You can also do some pretty cool things with having an engine that operates on a narrow rpm band.

Later

 

[xrated]

I remember reading somewhere that only about 30% of the energy created from the combustion makes it to the wheels.-not sure if the number is right, but yeah...most energy no matter what is wasted as heat and we only harvest a small amount for usefull energy.