Finally- a trail fix that works

[Blaser]

3 of the brightest minds (that I know) in the snowbike world are about to release a bolt-on kit for the simmons ski that really rips on the trail. Initially, it will be built and sold by Pro Moto Billet/Fastway Performance (think footpegs, stabilizers, bar guards) and will eventually be available through Dealers as well. This project is not related to any snow bike manufacturer.

It bolts to either the stock ski, or the powder ski, is very light, and takes the darting out of the front end. It's not a heavy mess of metal, and (according to an Editor at Dirt Bike magazine) "feels just like a tire on the trail"

I've spent quite a bit of time on both skis, and can't say enough about how well it works without sounding like Billy Mayes. (want some Ginsu knives with that?) I would now be comfortable putting my 11 year old son on my 650 on a frozen rutted trail and not worrying.

Personally, I will never ride a snowbike again without it. It makes the trip to the powder super fun. Everyone who's tested it said the same thing. I believe it will revolutionize our sport.

On Monday it was 24 degrees F with some of the worst frozen rutted trail I've ever ridden. Top speed on the stock ski was second gear, if you had a death wish. One of our best riders crashed 2x and broke his new helmet visor. Then we put the new skis on. We could ride the trail in 3rd or 4th pinned. The rear end became the limiting factor. I rode one-handed while filming with my other hand. We've tested them on both the 2Moto and Timbersled. On the trail, it will work on any simmons (and soon explorer) equipped ski.

After our last test ride, we even thought it would be fun to go on just a trail ride with sleds. Wierd, I know.

Pricing will be $149, and it will include the kit and custom replacement side carbides.

I was asked to post this to get a gauge of how many they should build. I realize this isn't a lot of info (no pics/vids) to make a decision, but you do what you can. First production units are a few short weeks away.

Yesterdays test riders said that once one guy in a group gets one, everyone in the group will.

How many should they build?
Thanks!

 

[retired motoman]

100 plus build for starters

In our group we have tried many things including different skis. And spent hundreds of dollars each looking for the silver bullet. One of the best ski's has been the Exployer ski with a different mount ($700) but it too has flaws.
I have mentioned many times the person who finally fixes the trail issue will make good money and make a lot of people very happy.
Put me down for at least 3 ski kits and possably 8.

 

[skibum_1260]

count me in



so will this use the stock 2 moto or timbersled extension or does it use its own for each bike?

 

[Blaser]

The kit only modifies the bottom of your ski. We've tested it on both the Timbersled and 2Moto. It will come with a template, and requires drilling 3 small holes in the ski.

I haven't ridden it on the Explorer ski, but have spent a lot of time on the Explorer ski (on a 2Moto, and Explorer) and believe it will also solve the "banana" issue with the Explorer ski- when it dives under the powder and flexes into a permanent banana shape. No need to bolt a piece of a snow ski to the top of your Explorer ski for strength anymore.

In our group we have tried many things including different skis. And spent hundreds of dollars each looking for the silver bullet. One of the best ski's has been the Exployer ski with a different mount ($700) but it too has flaws.
I have mentioned many times the person who finally fixes the trail issue will make good money and make a lot of people very happy.
Put me down for at least 3 ski kits and possably 8.

I agree, and share the same quest. I believe the Explorer ski, with this modification may prove to be the best all-around performer. Even though our modification is far superior (I'd say 1000% better) than the stock ski, it's still just a band-aid over the real issue--- Someone needs to pony up the $50k to design and build a snowbike specific ski... anyone? We're using snowmobile skis on dirt bikes. Kind of like using street bike tires on dirt.

As far as making money goes, there are not enough snowbikes out there (yet) to make this a big earner. The kit will be built in house, and requires quite a bit of machine time per runner. Pro Moto Billet is a large precision manufacturer, and is not re-allocating machine and employee time to pull a profit off of this project. They're doing it because the owner is a true snowbike believer, and wants to see the sport get out to the masses. Just like now is the best time to buy a house, it's also the best time to buy a snowbike- lots of good deals to be had. And now that we can have fun, and put long miles on the trail- it will open up more of the market- for all the brands.

 

[SNOW JW]

Great news. I have one question does it effect the performance in the deep snow and sidehills?? I would hate to take any of that away this would be a bonus when you are on your way out of the hills that day.

 

[mnsnowhawk]

There is also another option out there if you like the explorer ski. TLKD makes a kit that bolts a snowboard shaped piece of plastic on the outside of the ski to give more floatation in the deep snow while still keeping the stock wear bar setup. Then there is a lockup on it too. You can have twin axis for the trail and then lock it up for the powder. He has pics and more info on the other forum.

 

[Robster]

Set me up for at least 1 kit and probably 2 kits.

//Rob

 

[off road rider]

Sounds great Blaser!!!.. care to post a photo??

 

[AkBob]

Very interested in the trail fix like everyone else. I am sure our group would be in for two or three. I echo Snow JW question. Do we gain on the trail at the expense of off trail??

 

[SNOW JW]

I talked to Allen on this and he told me to hold off he has something but is out riding I am sure he will give me info when he gets back.

 

[Blaser]

Thanks for the comments and questions. I haven't seen the TLKD version, but it sounds neat.

Our team really feels that the true solution lies in a ski designed specifically for snowbikes- and like all of you we have a long list of ideas. Looking at the snowmobile world, and the number of skis available really shows the variety of different opinions about what the perfect ski should be.

All of us are backcountry riders. We only ride the trail when we have to, and even then we're usually all over the sides of the trail because it's more fun. Some of our best areas require a lengthy (for a bike) trail ride in. Our primary goal was to make the ski handle on the trail, and still provide the bite necessary to lay your shoulder in the powder through a turn; or lay a track across a steep sidehill. With anything there are always some trade-offs.

We also felt like (and no offense to anyone) the solution was not above the ski- with flexible mounts or isolation systems that (in our opinion) only 'mask' the problem. The other issue with above ski axis systems was the need for a simple lock out, so you could really carve the ski and bike through a turn, and then 'unlock' for the trail.

Feeling the solution was in the ski design itself, and not having the $$ to start putting out entirely new skis, we took a lot of the same priciples used by others, and started underneath.

Putting test riders of varrying abilities on our first versions yielded "a thousand percent" better trail handling, and "15-20% less" in the cold dry powder. With those designs all agreed the tradeoff was well worth it- and we could still carve a steep sidehill and rail a turn, but the front end "pushed" a bit more and we weren't satisfied. Out of the 5 different designs, one easily stood out. That one is great for any midwest or Eastern rider, but not for all of the Western deep powder people.

We took that best design, and re-worked it- settling on two final designs- both very different. We looked at, and modified almost every surface on the attachment- each shape used for a specific purpose. We shrunk our design as much as possible- re-opening the base shape of the ski so it could do it's job in the deep. Even the path depths, shape, and location are thought through.

The mounts we use are also very specific- in material density, flex, width, and especially height. We had to develop a special deflection measuring instrument. We had to preserve the consistency in how the ski rolls and bites from side to side- both on and off trail.

Sorry for the long post, I've had all this info pent up for too long...
We will be final testing the last two designs on Monday at 6am, (both on the frozen trail, and up at 8000 feet in the pow) and will then go into immediate production. Mondays are always best for testing, because the trails are the worst from the weekend.

If anyone wants to come ride the 3 pre-production skis and give an opinion, we'll be riding North of Boise. Shoot me a pm, and we'll try to accomodate- although our main focus is testing- and we stay focused-
Thanks!

 

[Blaser]

Sounds great Blaser!!!.. care to post a photo??

I'm like you- I hate it when you hear about something, but they don't post pics... Now it's me on the other side.

We don't want people to form opinions based on similarities in how it may look compared to what others have tried. And with Pro Moto Billet- a thousandth isn't close enough. Production versions will have extremely high build quality, and that's what they want in the photos.

Hopefully after Monday's ride I can leak some pre-production photos

 

[retired motoman]

Too good to be true?

Blaser,
Can't make it to the testing but thanks for the invite.

The product sounds too good to be true....and is what everyone wants. Snowbikes are great, but the trail is brutal.

After the testing on Monday, how soon before the finished product is avaibable for purchase?

 

[painterdrew]

if pro moto billet is making them and Brett says that they work well. Id would buy 4 of them and the guys i ride with would probably buy another 4 after they tried mine.

 

[Blaser]

if pro moto billet is making them and Brett says that they work well. Id would buy 4 of them and the guys i ride with would probably buy another 4 after they tried mine.

Thanks man. I like to think I have a little experience in this arena. And why aren't you riding today?

I'd like to see these shipping within a week, but that's never feasible. Realistically- 2 to 3 weeks at the earliest before they're shipping.

Our main reason for working on this project is so more people will buy more snowbikes; and we have more riding buddies; and more options of what to ride. Fixing the trail handling opens up the world to our sport. I shouldn't say "fixing", I should say "greatly improving", because I'm sure someone else will come up with something better. That's the progression.

 

[more snow]

Brett, will this new solution provide similar improvements for both the Gen1 and Gen2 Simmons skis?

Thanks....

 

[NIfun]

Count me in for one.

 

[Blaser]

Brett, will this new solution provide similar improvements for both the Gen1 and Gen2 Simmons skis?

Thanks....

Yes, although each ski has it's own unique handling traits. We had a few (2) over the bars episodes up in the powder today that wouldn't have happened if there would have been a Gen2 on the front...

I would confidently say that if I were racing myself up a trail, I could easily beat the Gen 1 with our modified Gen 2. No contest. The modification works equally well on the trail, on both skis.

 

[Blaser]

Here's the report from today-
We final tested 3 different ski mods- and one was the easy winner. We had frozen icy parking lot, 33 degree temps down low, and we tested all the way to the lookout (8100 ish feet elevation). Basically, we had the whole range today- slush, ice, sticky heavy powder, and nice dry light stuff up high. I even got some sun.

We tested all our different side rails, different lengths, different ski bases, different height risers, and even tried billet aluminum channels. I'll upload pics tomorrow. I'm tired, and the camera's still in the truck...

One design was the clear choice. It worked even better on the trail than our last favorite. My digging buddy said we should design a cruise control for the throttle, so that we could film us riding with no hands down the rutted trail just to prove it holds a line.

Up in the cold powder it carved great. We rode some pretty steep faces- as steep as it gets up on Tripod- and didn't have any problem carving it up.

I do think there is a small trade-off. Any time you add something to the bottom of a ski, you have to make choices. The trade off comes in the sticky stuff. It goes through it fine, and floats great, but like the stock ski- sometimes snow freezes between the metal carbides when you stop- and you have to drive straight for a few feet to clear it out. We're looking at 2 different high-tech coatings for the side rails.

The question was asked if you sacrifice deep powder performance for on trail handling. With the latest design- I don't think so. It felt great in the powder. Didn't push, just carved. And then on the trail- you can push it till the rear end swaps. I prefer the gen 2 in the powder (today was all gen 1), and will be running the new mod gen 2 as my primary ski- until it's all spring snow.

I don't think our fix is perfect yet, but a thousand percent improvement will have to do for now. We'll be final sourcing parts tomorrow.

I should also reiterate why we're doing this project. It started out as a way to help the sport grow. Now we have to build more of these for other people so we won't have to wait for the guys who ride with us. We also took several hours of video, and a hundred ish photos. Hopefully the video (Liquid Image goggles) turns out so you can see it work first hand.
Blaser

 

[more snow]

Blaser asked me to post some additional information that he sent to me regarding this new ski mod. Here it is...........

Here are some photos of the final prototype we will be producing. Production units will have several changes, including (hopefully) special coating on the metal parts, and slightly different runner shaping.

Although it may look simple, there's a lot going on with this design. The flexible mounts are a specific durometer, height, and width. They provide a specific deflection percentage. We've tested all sorts of combinations, including solid channeled billet.

The piece from the tip to the ramp gives the front of the ski more bite in the powder. The ramp is a specific length and angle. Even the side angle and shape have been tested. The single screw mounted 1/3 down the ski allows everything to flex properly, and is in a key location. The rear turn-down is in case you back up.

Even the shoe size and center of pressure location are specific- width, profile, and length.

The tail shape, distance off the ski, and grooving were tested. We’ve also opened up the rear of the ski as much as possible, to increase bite and the flow of snow through the ski.

The side rail length, depth, and profile are also specific. We tried a bunch of these. They'll hopefully be coated, and that will help with sticking in the sticky wet snow.

Is it perfect- no. It's a thousand % better on the trail, and as good or (I think better) than a stock ski in the powder. Better in the powder due to the increased bite in the tip, and the deeper, full channel in the rear.
-Blaser-