Ethanol Fuel

[Ron]

Some info I discovered about Ethanol fuel while at Costco. Costco is one of the few places still selling good fuel & at a good price. Corporate at Costco recently polled their stores to see if customers perceive Non Ethanol as a better value. If they switch to Ethanol they can sell it cheaper because of the govt subsidy on production of the alcohol.

I filled out the suggestion form found inside the door of all Costco stores. If enough of us do this we may save one of the few sources of NonEth remaining. I was told to put the key words Better Value & added a short narrative telling them that I will not buy ethanol fuel if non ethanol is available any place else. If they get enough feedback they may not make a switch.
As oil prices have come down the lower cost of ethanol has become less favorable-that works in our favor too. I don't want to help the Arabs but won't run ethanol unless there is no other choice. And some of the sleds won't run on ethanol without a gallon or two of race gas or av gas.

I'm assuming that most know why you want good fuel in your sled.

 

[supa-bad-mofo]

Ethanol reduces fuel mileage and power. The cost saving at the pump is nullified by the loss of MPG.

 

[Trashy]

Ethanol reduces fuel mileage and power. The cost saving at the pump is nullified by the loss of MPG.

it doesn't necessarily have to reduce power, it just has different burn characteristics than gasoline. You are correct about the MPG tho, if it were straight methanol you would need way more to do the same work; I believe the ratio is around 1.7:1...

 

[happyhour]

So why is ethanol bad for me and my vehicles? never heard I had to put race gas or av gas to make some sleds run on a ethanol? and you are for a better value you say! please enlighten me http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/MN_E20_findings_back_higher_blends_study_5508.pdf

 

[ICLIMB]

When ignited ethanol blended gas produces less "power" when compared to the same amount of straight gasoline being ignited. I believe E blended also produces 75% less btu's/gal v. straight gas. It (E blend) attracts water over time so freshness in the tank is a problem. Also as I hear it breaks down the oil and doesn't "mix" well in the cyls (with most 2stroke oils). It will make your sled run leaner too, hence the mix of race fuel.

I think there have been some posts on this topic. I didn't realize there was any place to buy non-ethanol in ID anymore.

 

[Trashy]

Ethanol isn't specifically bad, it just has different requirements for the design of the fuel system, compression ratio, valve seats etc. and you do burn a lot more of it than you would gasoline... The price of it would have to be less than half of gas in order to achieve a decent amount of savings and hence the debate continues....

So why is ethanol bad for me and my vehicles? never heard I had to put race gas or av gas to make some sleds run on a ethanol? and you are for a better value you say! please enlighten me http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/MN_E20_findings_back_higher_blends_study_5508.pdf

 

[Mafesto]

Wow!
There's a whole lotta mis-information in this thread.

Ethanol reduces fuel mileage and power. The cost saving at the pump is nullified by the loss of MPG.

That depends on the price difference.
Definately not an accurate statement.

When ignited ethanol blended gas produces less "power" when compared to the same amount of straight gasoline being ignited. I believe E blended also produces 75% less btu's/gal v. straight gas. It (E blend) attracts water over time so freshness in the tank is a problem. Also as I hear it breaks down the oil and doesn't "mix" well in the cyls (with most 2stroke oils). It will make your sled run leaner too, hence the mix of race fuel.

I think there have been some posts on this topic. I didn't realize there was any place to buy non-ethanol in ID anymore.

You "believe" wrong.

You "heard" wrong.

Whn running the 10% blend, the resulting leaner condition is less than 1 jet size.

Ethanol isn't specifically bad, it just has different requirements for the design of the fuel system, compression ratio, valve seats etc. and you do burn a lot more of it than you would gasoline... The price of it would have to be less than half of gas in order to achieve a decent amount of savings and hence the debate continues....

If you are talking straight ethanol (alcohol), there is some truth in your statement. Some.

But since there are no pumps that dispense straight ethanol, let's assume we are talking the 10% blend (E 10), which does not require a different fuel system.
It does not require a different compression ratio (although it would allow you to run a higherr compression ratio which could nullify any mpg or power loss).
It's higher octane rating resists detonation better, so valve seats would actually be safer with ethanol.

Half? Half?!!
That remark was so wrong I think it made me leak a little pee!
5%-10% is accurate


Is corn based ethanol the end all?
Certainly not.
But it is a tremendous stepping stone towards energy independance.
It is leading to other base stock ethanol which may or may not be better alternatives.

The WORST thing any of us can do is nothing (by nothing I mean continue as usual buying our oil from the middle east).
Like it or not, but when you buy ethanol you ARE helping!

Lastly, this thread should be in fouled plug!

 

[Trashy]

If you are talking straight ethanol (alcohol), there is some truth in your statement. Some.


It's higher octane rating resists detonation better, so valve seats would actually be safer with ethanol.

Half? Half?!!
That remark was so wrong I think it made me leak a little pee!
5%-10% is accurate

Good rant!!!
I was referring to straight ethanol!
And yes, straight it IS hard on seats!
Can't say I have been able to see signs of detonation on seats before tho...
Pistons, yes. Plugs, yes. Cylinder heads, yes. Seats, ... no.
Seats get pounded out from fuels with no inherant lubrication qualities such as ethanol, methanol, propane and CNG.
At a 10 percent concentration as found in the pumps I do agree with most of what you said.
However, the direction things seem to be headed in is towards higher and higher concentrations...

 

[Ron]

Gees I was suggesting that you take action to keep non ethanol at Costco, didn't want to start a peeing match. And this is snowmobile related, don't care about the truck. Quote from my post; And some of the sleds won't run on ethanol without a gallon or two of race gas or av gas.
Ethanol is 10% alcohol & produces 3.4% less power. While it raises octane it is more prone to detonation the opposite you would expect. SLP recommends 20% race gas with single pipe, milled head & porting if you run ethanol-no race gas with 91 non ethanol.
Don't profess to be an expert, still learning, but don't know any reason yet to want ethanol in a performance snowmobile. I do know that the 09 Polaris 800 comes with 2 fuel maps-one for ethanol & that you will lose performance with the ethanol map.

 

[polarisfornow]

Geez stop trying to resist the inevitable. This is the same resistance people had when everything went from leaded to unlead gas. If the internet was around back then in the capacity it is today I'm sure that people would've been claiming that valve trains will never last past 50k miles or something ludicris like that. Vehicles will change technologies will change and people will move forward. Its change it happens.

 

[Trashy]

'nuff said.

 

[Mafesto]

I am sorry if I came off like a blow hard!

But I do have a bit of knowledge in this arena & I feel I doo have to correct some of the most blatant mis-statements made.

With commodity prices at their level, corn based ethanol faces some tough obstacles.
But the "good ol' American ingenuity" will prevail in the end with refinded production methods & alternative base stocks, the industry will continue to provide relief from the stranglehold the middle east has had us in.

 

[ICLIMB]

I agree that technologies will change and evolve and that is all well and good. I'm not against ethanol blended fuels. But the fact remains that for some older Iron, Eblend does not produce the power that straight gasoline does and can cause problems. I think that we should still have the option to buy straight gasoline. I'll find the survey and fill it out for costco.

10% blend will yeild 3-4% less power than straight gas. Thats a pretty big deal in my opinion.

I'd like to know how you calculated that 10% blend will be less than 1 jet size. 1 jet size can make or break ya on some models. I believe the Doo's run pretty lean. On a cold day, WFO, you might squeek tight. On a Cat you'll prolly be fine, they run fat anyways. As for the other stuff I stated I'll try to find where I read that.


Anyways all I'm saying is I'm not for the state or any form of gov't for that mater forcing blended fuel on us. I'm not trying to start a fight or anything and I'm sorry if I read something and mis quoted. I'm trying to find all I can about this fuel so glad to read posts like this. Thanks for the info Ron and others.

Glad to hear some places in ID are not blended, gives me hope in finding some close by.

 

[Rave]

Oxygenates?

Just another thought here. Doesn't all fuel have to be oxygenated for emissions purposes? So either ethanol or MTBE or some other chemical needs to be used as I recall. Wouldn't other oxygenates also cause lean conditions on an engine tuned to the max (or to the edge)? Or do not all states require oxygenated fuels?

Somebody who is more up to date on this aspect of the fuel deal clue me in please.

 

[happyhour]

I agree that technologies will change and evolve and that is all well and good. I'm not against ethanol blended fuels. But the fact remains that for some older Iron, Eblend does not produce the power that straight gasoline does and can cause problems. I think that we should still have the option to buy straight gasoline. I'll find the survey and fill it out for costco.

10% blend will yeild 3-4% less power than straight gas. Thats a pretty big deal in my opinion.

I'd like to know how you calculated that 10% blend will be less than 1 jet size. 1 jet size can make or break ya on some models. I believe the Doo's run pretty lean. On a cold day, WFO, you might squeek tight. On a Cat you'll prolly be fine, they run fat anyways. As for the other stuff I stated I'll try to find where I read that.


Anyways all I'm saying is I'm not for the state or any form of gov't for that mater forcing blended fuel on us. I'm not trying to start a fight or anything and I'm sorry if I read something and mis quoted. I'm trying to find all I can about this fuel so glad to read posts like this. Thanks for the info Ron and others.

Glad to hear some places in ID are not blended, gives me hope in finding some close by.

the benefits from running ethanol base fuels go's beyond saving pennies at the pumps most everything now is calibrated to run a 10% blend when you say you need to mix race fuel with it I was woundering why if it is a octane requirement I would look at running a higher blend I personally like the E-30 96 octane. what non ethanol base fuel offers this octane for this price . e-30 paid today 3.09 gal most sleds if you put in alot of aftermarket parts you need to run more fuel to it anyways so you need a fuel controller so a 30% blend would not be hard to run in a performance sled 2 stroke or four stroke the price of race fuel has gotten unreal they say ethanol mixes with water well they are wright it will clean out your tank it will be the cleanest it has ever been running ethanol mtbe is not good for anything other than big oils pocket . cannot remember the last time I had to buy a can of heat because I had water in my tank and frozen fuel lines . maybe I took this personal but sitting at break at work typing this up from in the control room at a 85 million gal a year ethanol plant maybe I have a reason to be a bit ticked at miss leading info. if you need info I will try my best to get you it Jason

 

[Trashy]

The oxygenate in the fuel reduces emissions of carbon monoxide. In many areas the oxygenate implementation is seasonal. The oxygenate MTBE has been found to have contaminated groundwater, mostly through leaks in underground gasoline storage tanks. In 2004, California and New York lead the way and banned MTBE, generally replacing it with ethanol. Most other states started switching soon afterward. But what do I know.

 

[Ron]

the benefits from running ethanol base fuels go's beyond saving pennies at the pumps most everything now is calibrated to run a 10% blend when you say you need to mix race fuel with it I was woundering why if it is a octane requirement I would look at running a higher blend I personally like the E-30 96 octane. what non ethanol base fuel offers this octane for this price . e-30 paid today 3.09 gal most sleds if you put in alot of aftermarket parts you need to run more fuel to it anyways so you need a fuel controller so a 30% blend would not be hard to run in a performance sled 2 stroke or four stroke the price of race fuel has gotten unreal they say ethanol mixes with water well they are wright it will clean out your tank it will be the cleanest it has ever been running ethanol mtbe is not good for anything other than big oils pocket . cannot remember the last time I had to buy a can of heat because I had water in my tank and frozen fuel lines . maybe I took this personal but sitting at break at work typing this up from in the control room at a 85 million gal a year ethanol plant maybe I have a reason to be a bit ticked at miss leading info. if you need info I will try my best to get you it Jason

My post was on the issue of 90% ethanol in snowmobiles & to the best of my knowledge most performance sleds are not calibrated to run E90. The few 09's that are calibrated lose performance-that's a fact. E85 is scarce & E70 non existant around here. Oxygenates are not required in all states, haven't looked it up but most western states don't require Oxy. Starting Line Products is recommending race fuel (reluctantly) with some of their mods-this is not good for business. Carl's performance same story. There are all kinds of solutions from rejetting older sleds to buying a fuel controller on new ones-I'll bet Joe public is right on top of that one, ha ha.......not.
All some of us want is another year with non ethanol premium fuel while everyone gets the ethanol figured out.
PS your pricing isn't even close to the cost of E90 which has 3.4% less energy...E70 would contain 10.2% less energy. I can buy non ethanol fuel cheaper at Costco than ethanol fuel any place in Boise so the only folks saving money are those selling Eth.

Note the following news release:


Boise, Idaho -- According to AAA, the majority of gas stations across Idaho have switched to selling a 10 percent blend of ethanol instead of plain gasoline.
The move is consistent with President Bush's push toward using more renewable fuel sources, but it's causing problems for some drivers.
Older cars, especially those built before 1990, have gaskets and other components that can break down with an ethanol mixture.
It can also harm some boats, chainsaws, snow mobiles and lawn mowers.
"From what we understand there's a 54 cent a gallon federal tax credit given to dealer blenders that blend gasoline with the 10 percent blend, so you can actually make more blending ethanol than selling gasoline at the pump," said Dave Carlson, with AAA Idaho.
AAA is compiling a list of gasoline stations that still supply non-ethanol blended fuel across Idaho for those who need it.
For more information or to contribute to the AAA list, call 208-342-9391 or 800-999-9391.

 

[Mafesto]

Oh yeah, thanks to the big man for the red dot! pisshead

 

[polarisfornow]

i just can't help but to get involved with this. first ron you stated that although ethanol fuels have a higher octane rating they are more prone to detonation.

WRONG

You may not be aware of this but the octane rating is calculated to determine the fuel resistance to detonation. Its not just some random number dreamed up by scientists. if you are having problems with a motor on ethanol its not detonation but more likely a lean miss. The higher the octane the more resistant to detonation. I know several people that run e-85 in their flatland sleds and swear by it because they can run more compression more timing on cheap fuel. Our e-85 is only 2.39 a gallon around here compared with $5 dollar race gas.

I dont live in Idaho but i have never seen e-90 around here. and in fact have really only seen 3 blends of ethanol, e-10, e-85, and once i saw e-30 in minnesota. I have run e-10 in every gas vehicle i have over the last 4-5 years and have never had a fuel related problem, personally i cant wait until manufacturers like volvo are the standard and have separate mapping for both that actually optimizes the use of blended fuels instead of just simply a bandaid to get it to work.

well that was a dumb way to spend a sunday night

 

[Johnny]

If the station is selling an ethanol blend, is it stated right on the pump? Basically wondering how to tell.