Court ordered Chemo for 13 year old boy

[skidooer1]

wow this kinda situation is messed up.I Do believe in any case it should be up to the family on how to be treated.This has happened before.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_v._Cherrix

 

[mad1818]

It's a tough one! Can see both sides.

 

[xrated]

Seems a good example where capitalism has failed to me..

Sorry for the ot, back to topic.

I have learned quite a bit from this thread. Lots of good information. People have been living without pills and chemicals for hundreds of thousands of years. It has only been the last thousand or so that we have seen the human race become consumed by the need for hi-tech and hi-cost solutions as compared to much more simple and natural solutions.

but how as quality and length of life changed as well?

how many kids die before 4 or 5 now? How many people die from bug bites or blisters now?

 

[Gone Sleddin]

I do not think the court should be allowed to tell people what treatment they should take. at the same time, i can see how denying a minor a proven highly effective treatment could be considered child endangerment...

I also believe people should have the right to have and practice the religious beliefs they so choose. but, from what i have heard, they have been a part of this religious group for a year and a half, have to pay $250 to join and $100 per year membership, and is led by some wack-a-do hill-billy from from missouri. (no offense to any wack-a-do hill-billies or wack-a-do hill-billy followers) doesnt sound like a religion to me, sounds like a scam, maybe a bit of a cult.

either way, it's an effed up situation and ya gotta wish the best for all involved

 

[catnfool]

tough one here- my 1 1/2 y/o girl had chemo for Leukemia and won, at the same time her little buddy had chemo and lost. Tough call for sure; my wife has said she would NEVER take chemo after seeing our girl on it, but she would have died without it. She was given blood the day she got to the hospital, and started chemo the next day.

all said, I say make a treatment decision you have faith in, and have no regrets in the outcome; just trust God and hang on...

 

[catnfool]

Oh yeah, and the same situation happened to a kid we knew while getting treatment- I think they were from MN also? Their kid died, but who is to say the outcome would have been different with chemo? All I know for sure is I sure hate cancer.

my kid is doing AWESOME at 7y/o by the way

 

[duffman]

that's a pretty absurd opinion!!!!! if you don't like the alternatives, that's fine, don't use them! but saying those practioners should be prosecuted is just plain retarded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! medical doctors are directly responsible for over 100 000 deaths in the USA every year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! should they be prosecuted too. what about when they use a drug for things it wasn't designed or ever tested for?????? do we charge those Dr.s too?????????????

My favorite aunt spent thirty years of her life blind because she went to one of these quacks that convinced her he could treat her type 1 diabetes without insulin. My father, also diabetic and following a real doctors advice, lived those same thirty years with almost zero complications. Any of you arguing for these frauds ever hear of the hippocratic oath, do no harm? Medical doctors are not perfect but the receive years and years of exhausting training and are generally the best and brightest students at a given university. What does it take to be a homeopathic doctor, a conspiracy theory against big pharmacutical, and some trumped up credentials from Bill's House of Healing?

Buck50 have you ever heard of the FDA? Do you know what it takes to get a new drug to market? Maybe ask someone in the pharmaceutical business I am sure they would be more than willing to expound on this. I agree that our society is becomming over medicated but this is just a belief of mine that I cannot prove.

I am sure that there are some of these homeopathic people out there that generally think they are helping, and some probably do in some cases. The power of suggestion can be very powerful as modern medicine and science have documented many years ago. However, there are many of these quacks that cause harm, and they should be prosecuted and held accountable for their actions.

btw I am still waiting for you swampy to answer x-rated's question about the survival rate for homeopathicly treated leukemia in children, and please while you're at it provide the survival rate for no treatment at all.

 

[catnfool]

survival rate for type "ALL" leukemia with the "best known procedures" (which were updated and now use the treatment Anna got; it was an intense delayed chemo program) WERE at 84% full recovery and the last time I checked were in the 90% area!!! The study added a 3% increase in success

That being said, some types are pretty tough to get under control; AML is the other kind of childhood leukemia, and it's success rate is still fairly low compared to ALL. Been a few years since I had to think of these numbers- kind of crazy how you forget something that is SOOOO important at certain times of your life...
and I STILL don't want the courts to decide everything for me; they NEVER know when to stop!

 

[swampwater]

btw I am still waiting for you swampy to answer x-rated's question about the survival rate for homeopathicly treated leukemia in children, and please while you're at it provide the survival rate for no treatment at all.

If you read my posts you will note I never referance Homeopathy, I am only referencing Natural therapies as opposed to chemotharapy. As for survival for no treatment at all I would assume it to be very low and would never recomend no treatment. As for those treated naturally I have seen no statististics but if one child had died it would be shouted over the whole world forever as the FDA wants nothing better than to hang that one on natural practitioners.
Here is a quote from an article on who goes to germany to get treatments the fda will not allow in the US.

Other celebrities who’ve chosen German treatments
President Reagan, Princess Caroline of Monaco, and Alicia Buttons aren’t alone in going to Germany for cancer treatment. Numerous celebrities have benefited from German treatments, including:
· Elizabeth Taylor
· Cher
· Princess Haja of Jordan
· Siegfried and Roy
· Suzanne Somers
· Jennifer Lopez (who financed her aunt’s successful cancer treatment in Germany)
· Jack Cassidy (the bass player from the Jefferson Airplane rock group)
· George Hamilton
· William Holden
· Anthony Quinn
Suzanne Somers had surgery and radiation in America for her breast cancer in 2001. Naturally her doctors wanted her to follow up these treatments with highly toxic chemotherapy. They were appalled when she said “no.” Instead, she opted for mistletoe, a German herbal therapy that worked well for her.
Mistletoe therapy is natural. It’s gentle on the patient but tough on cancer. All the German cancer clinics I toured use mistletoe therapy.
You might think it sounds odd or weird to use mistletoe against cancer. And you can be sure some American doctors would call mistletoe therapy “quackery.” But this therapy is backed up by more than 3,000 studies conducted between 1985 and 2006.
Mistletoe has been proven
to have a direct effect against cancer cells,
and it boosts the immune system
When you order your personal copy of my new Special Report, German Cancer Breakthrough, I’m going to give you a special gift, as well: you’ll get a FREE bonus report that tells you all about mistletoe therapy.
In fact, you get FIVE FREE BONUS REPORTS with your purchase of German Cancer Breakthrough.
FDA officials sneak off to Germany
for the treatments they deny you
Back in 1987, Dr. Nieper let a man named Jeff Harsh interview him for a video documentary. After commenting that “President Reagan is a very nice man,” Dr. Nieper declared:
“You wouldn’t believe how many FDA officials or relatives or acquaintances of FDA officials come to see me as patients in Hanover. You wouldn’t believe this — or directors of the American Medical Association (AMA), or American Cancer Society (ACS), or the presidents of orthodox cancer institutes. That’s the fact.”
Well, that’s America’s cancer establishment for you.
FDA officials and their colleagues want you to submit to disfiguring surgery, poisonous chemo, and burning radiation when you get cancer. But when they get cancer — well, that’s different! They go to Germany to get rid of their cancer. For themselves, they prefer treatments that are more effective and don’t have any side effects.America’s cancer system is a broken down mess

 

[duffman]

I agree catnfool, I also detest courts getting involved in things which they don't belong. However, I think in this case the court is performing constitutionally and appropriately. The bottom line in this case is the child is still going to suffer, at the hands of both his irresponsible mother and the overbearing courts.

Swampy, I have read many of your posts here and it seems like I generally agree with you and your arguments are well thought out. I don't think so here. The evidence you just provided include celebrity endorsement and a sales brochure (free gift and all!). No need to nit pick over homeopathic, naturalpathic, et all. it is all junk science. Choosing your cancer treatment from a celebrity endorcement is akin to traveling to North Vietnam to learn human rights because Jane Fonda did it.

 

[maluchm]

So the kid is being jacked full of poisons and maybe radiated when he and/or the family chose a different path of treatment.

* Note - I am NOT against traditional treatments as it has saved many loved ones so far in my life. But I think the Government should have no say in what form of treatment. To me, that's worse then a perfect stranger telling you how to raise your own kids. But hey, maybe that's next in line now.

 

[swampwater]

I agree catnfool, I also detest courts getting involved in things which they don't belong. However, I think in this case the court is performing constitutionally and appropriately. The bottom line in this case is the child is still going to suffer, at the hands of both his irresponsible mother and the overbearing courts.

Swampy, I have read many of your posts here and it seems like I generally agree with you and your arguments are well thought out. I don't think so here. The evidence you just provided include celebrity endorsement and a sales brochure (free gift and all!). No need to nit pick over homeopathic, naturalpathic, et all. it is all junk science. Choosing your cancer treatment from a celebrity endorcement is akin to traveling to North Vietnam to learn human rights because Jane Fonda did it.

Apparantly you did not read the portion in red so I will repost that part here. Whether you think natural therapies are quackary or not is your belief however you will note that while those in control of treatment in the us refuse to allow what works and is used with great success in other countries to be used in the us under threat of seizure, arrest and loss of licenses, yet these same people are making regular use of these treatments in Germany. I have been fighting for freedom of medical treatment for thirty years, beginning with the Leatrile therapies of the 70's, I have seen the federal swat teams descend on medical doctors with guns drawn and seize all records, computers and medications, I have watched the state medical board hound a good friend trying to set him up to remove his license, it took them 25 years to finally get him on a supposed missdiagnosis, most doctors have more than 1 in a single year, and that was at 74 years of age. You can call it quakary if you want but when they take your freedom away remember freedom is not freedom to ride any where, freedom of religion, freedom to own guns freedom is the whole inalienable rights of the individual, life, liberty and property. Oh and I think Ronald Reagan was more than a celebrity and I would sure not equate some of the top physicians and surgeons in the world with a communist dupe like Jane Fonda. Swampy

“You wouldn’t believe how many FDA officials or relatives or acquaintances of FDA officials come to see me as patients in Hanover. You wouldn’t believe this — or directors of the American Medical Association (AMA), or American Cancer Society (ACS), or the presidents of orthodox cancer institutes. That’s the fact.”
Well, that’s America’s cancer establishment for you.
FDA officials and their colleagues want you to submit to disfiguring surgery, poisonous chemo, and burning radiation when you get cancer. But when they get cancer — well, that’s different! They go to Germany to get rid of their cancer. For themselves, they prefer treatments that are more effective and don’t have any side effects.America’s cancer system is a broken down mess

 

[duffman]

Swampy I admit the example of Jane Fonda was a little extreme, but an appropriate response to your claiming that a medical treatment is valid because celbrities have done it. While there are intelligent celebrities, most of the rest combined don't have the sense that you or I have in our big toe. I think Ronald Reagan was arguably the best president this country has ever had, but we all know what kind of shape he was in during his twilight years, both mentally and physically.

Our medical system is far from perfect. I sat here writing examples from my own experience and life then realized that was unecessary, as we all have such examples. Also, it raises my hackles hearing about feds coming after anyone with guns blazing, so to speak.


Anyway, back to the discussion at hand. There are many natural things that work. Many modern pharmacueticals are botanically derived, such as aspirin. Don't forget penecillin, derived from yeast. The human body also has a incredible ability to heal itself, and amazing adaptability. As I said before the mind also has an incredible ability to heal, proven in part by scientific placebo studies that have been succesfully replicated time after time. Here in lies the key. Some things may cure themselves, some may not. Some treatments may work most every time, some only work part of the time. This is where the large grey area is and where these quack doctors operate.

Lets say I have a cancer and a quack doctor suggest a treatment. I procede with treatment and live. Well I didn't need those nasty treatments this guy cured me! Conversely, I have the same cancer and go to a real doctor, take the treatments and the unpleasantness associated with them (which I have witnessed first hand) and die. Modern medicine is crap and I suffered unecessarily when I should have been out enjoying my last days.

Looking at individual cases tells you nothing about how things actually work. You have to evalute many cases, and see the overall results for any given condition, treatment, special circumstances, etc. Next you have to find a way to remove any bias from the people studying the data. Finally you have to repeat these steps many times and get the same results. This is what modern medicine/science does. Quacks tell you they cured someone so they can cure you too. They may believe in what they are doing, or they might be tricky spinsters, but either way the results are the same.

It now becomes an issue of faith, not fact: I have faith this guy will cure me, I have seen him do it so I don't care what anyone else says they are wrong! Whether they know they are doing it or not, these "doctors" prey on this faith and use it to their advantage.

If I have faith in the outcome of my life, I am going to take it from god not from a man.

 

[swampwater]

Duffman: As george Patton said "if everyone is thinking the same thing someone is not thinking". I respect your opinion but I will close my posts in this thread with just a couple points.

1. Ronald Reagan was not in his twilight years when he went for treatment, it was 1985, he was still in office and he lived 19 years after that and did not die of cancer.

2. Most all drugs are derived from or copied from natural sources, the problem is big pharmacy tries to determine the exact chemical that works and creat it in the labs so they can patent it and make large sums of money.

3. I take issue with your constant reference to quacks when discussing these doctors. I know many of them from this area and they are world class physicians with credentials most doctors wish they had. Just because they recognized the FDA and the medical establisment is corrupt and they moved to the natural medicine does not make them quacks, I would love to see a debate between Jonathan Wright and any traditional medicine advocate.

4. You will find many of the traditional cancer treatment centers, Seattle Cancer Treatment Centers of America etc, are beginning to incorporate natural treatment within their modalities, it's just a matter of time before the medical establishment will be drug kicking and screaming into reality.

I wish you well but do recomend you research natural medicine, I am sure you would be amazed. If you need any information I would be glad to give you the source to find all you need. Swampy

 

[duffman]

While I have been blessed with good health, people in my family have had more than their fair share of medical conditions/complications. What happened to my aunt referenced above is what got me interested in this stuff we are currently discussing. No one really talked about it much so I took it upon myself to do the research. As it wasn't discussed that left me the freedom to form my own opinion. I'll admit I am not as well read on the subject as I could be (other things like snowmobiling get in the way). But I have read enough to be well informed and I like to be comfortably versed in something before I start flapping my pie hole.


I recognize that neither one of us is going to convince the other, and am willing to leave it at that before it resorts to mud slinging and name calling. At the very least it got my gears turning, hopefully someone elses too.







my dog can beat up your dog

 

[catnfool]

yep; Swampy is right about Seattle having a natural doc working with the hospital- I've MET him!!! I was impressed with him- he knew his stuff, but didn't oversell what he could do.

A few try to oversell what they can do, but that goes for both kinds of Docs.