complete stande alone FMS?

[mattymac]

Has anyone ever adapted a true stand alone fuel management system to say a nytro or apex/rx1? Im not talking drag sleds either. Im talking about true mtn sleds that get used a bunch? I got to ride with paulo (astro) with his 1500 RXP turbo in a fastrax built crhomo chassis running the MOTEC M400 setup, truely amazing product!!! No moisture issues, running absolutley crisp and perfectly spot on at basically any elevation and temp day in and day out, oh yeah did I mention 22lbs of boost on 91 octane! Sounds crazy but for a GOOD standalone fuel management system its nothing new! knock sensor, RPM limits, stutter feature, IAT, Baro, Boost, 02, ign timing, fuel presure, dutycycle, datalogging, full instrumentaion, and so on. The M400 retails for around 3K but is overkill for a FMS for our requirements.


I dont understand people, they take a 10K snomobile, put a 6,8,10K dollar turbo setup with all the extras and goodies, do chassis mods, suspention upgrades in excess of 10K dollars, and yet settle on a POS bandaid fuel controller that barely works at best that probaly cost about 10 bucks to make and program that makes your high dollar turbo sled run like crap and have to get towed back to the trailer, or force you to carry extra fuel control boxes??? any input???


Heres the specs on what these systems can do!
http://www.motec.com/aboutecu/ecucomparison

 

[Duke]

I know 2 guys in Canada running Stand Alone systems, there is currently one running on the snow right now. Feedback I have heard is that it is working very well. Some engine hurdles have delayed these sleds, I believe these sleds are going to run as good or better than a factory tuned set-up.

 

[traveler]

Contact gunnerthesnowman he's very close to a closed loop. and in WA.
let us know what you find

 

[Motleyone]

I guess climbing Gibbs Gash, The 90 and Irmens arm is not that good since the guys climbing them were not on a SAFMS. hhhhhuuuuuhhhhh???

A stand alone will improve things slightly but it will not be leaps and bounds ahead of what we already have. Bottom line is that all the Horsepower in the world means nothing if you aint got the balls and skid to climb the steep.

On that note a little birdy told me that one off the major turbo kit companies is working on a stand alone right now and is close to done.

 

[Transporter]

Im going to have one by the end of summer.

 

[Duke]

Contact gunnerthesnowman he's very close to a closed loop. and in WA.
let us know what you find

He is one of the ones I'm refering to and he's in Canada. His hasn't been in the hills yet, there is another one that has.

Motley is right, although the stand alone features are impressive, nothing wrong with simple.

 

[mattymac]

I guess climbing Gibbs Gash, The 90 and Irmens arm is not that good since the guys climbing them were not on a SAFMS. hhhhhuuuuuhhhhh???

A stand alone will improve things slightly but it will not be leaps and bounds ahead of what we already have. Bottom line is that all the Horsepower in the world means nothing if you aint got the balls and skid to climb the steep.

what does rider ability have to do with SAFMS??? Better not get em wet either!

Look at probably 90% of the sleds out there running fuel control boxes, yeah they work and make a sled run with extra mods but to have complete control over the ENTIRE system is what is needed for those looking for that extra edge, and yeah if you have ever seen what some of these systems can do its a bit more than just adding a little fuel to a motor!

I know this isnt the option for everybody, but like I said take a 20,30,40+ thousand dollar sled and put a cheap fuel controller on it that makes the entire engine, and turbo system run no where near its potential is kinda crazy to me.

And for those who are gunna chime in about the RB3, it has its limits!

 

[BigFish BC]

I guess climbing Gibbs Gash, The 90 and Irmens arm is not that good since the guys climbing them were not on a SAFMS. hhhhhuuuuuhhhhh???

A stand alone will improve things slightly but it will not be leaps and bounds ahead of what we already have. Bottom line is that all the Horsepower in the world means nothing if you aint got the balls and skid to climb the steep.

On that note a little birdy told me that one off the major turbo kit companies is working on a stand alone right now and is close to done.

yes it sounds very nice from what he has told me hope to have one next year.

 

[tntm7]

I guess climbing Gibbs Gash, The 90 and Irmens arm is not that good since the guys climbing them were not on a SAFMS. hhhhhuuuuuhhhhh???

A stand alone will improve things slightly but it will not be leaps and bounds ahead of what we already have. Bottom line is that all the Horsepower in the world means nothing if you aint got the balls and skid to climb the steep.

On that note a little birdy told me that one off the major turbo kit companies is working on a stand alone right now and is close to done.

If you dont think a well programmed motec is light yrs over the crappy stock ecu, you are very mistaken, never a hickup, bog, stutter miss that the stock system has in stock form. Improved cruise milage, can actually run in lambda and for more then a 1oo rpm here or there. Knock sensing timing retard, boost timing retard,
Can spool a larger turbo faster then the t28 with stock ecu.
Adaptable anti lag, no more egt or afr guages needed, there all built in.
So the bandaids that are currently the mass wave right now will be soon wiped out by real control units that work.
HOw about this idea, click a button and put your ecm in lambda tune and let all the sensors tune your motor for you? Just click and ride for 5 min and it builds a base program or cleans up a problem area with no dyno, no stopping and guessing.
But if you dont think all that is better, OK i think thats the same as saying a 1980 mountain sled is no better then a 2009

 

[Motleyone]

Technically well put but my point is that it won't help you climb anything that has not already been climbed. The most impressive thing to me about the stand alones is the safe gaurds they use to minimize engine meltdown where with our current tech sometimes it is a crap shoot like screaming up a shoot on 23lbs trying to watch your AF ratio numbers. It is going to be a great advance in sled tuning but if you think the STFMS is 29 years ahead of what we currenlty use then you go ahead and believe that. Heck we should be climb straight up rock faces now. That's great because now when I stay in Revy I won't have to use the West trail from our room into boulder I will just fly up the East face right to Sugar.

If you dont think a well programmed motec is light yrs over the crappy stock ecu, you are very mistaken, never a hickup, bog, stutter miss that the stock system has in stock form. Improved cruise milage, can actually run in lambda and for more then a 1oo rpm here or there. Knock sensing timing retard, boost timing retard,
Can spool a larger turbo faster then the t28 with stock ecu.
Adaptable anti lag, no more egt or afr guages needed, there all built in.
So the bandaids that are currently the mass wave right now will be soon wiped out by real control units that work.
HOw about this idea, click a button and put your ecm in lambda tune and let all the sensors tune your motor for you? Just click and ride for 5 min and it builds a base program or cleans up a problem area with no dyno, no stopping and guessing.
But if you dont think all that is better, OK i think thats the same as saying a 1980 mountain sled is no better then a 2009

 

[astro]

The difference between the crappy stock ECU and Motec is if you have a problem with how the motor is running you plug in your laptop and fix it. As far as closed loop, why do you need it if you are tuned right? With all the different compensations available in the ECU altitude and temp changes aren't a problem.

 

[Transporter]

Someone could just crack stock ecu programming like the hayabusa ecu thats would be cool.But there is lots of ECU's you can buy from 200 to 1500 bucks with autotune.

 

[tntm7]

On a open shoot where your boosted up and everything is running good, your right the motec not gonna make the difference.
When your heading at a tree and trying to get the thing to boost and spin the track to lay over- vertually no boost lag would make a huge difference.
when carving through the trees and your power is there when you call for it everytime.
or optional anti lag so you have turbo power instantly.
I think that will open a whole new door for the big turbo 4 strokes make these sleds able to venture into the trees and more technical climbs, not just a monster face with snow on it.

why closed loop on a well tuned sled, HMMM, variable's, way to many variables in sledding, hood pack with snow, cold air, engine heated hood temps. you can get a more inconsistant inviroment then with a sled.
Why not open the door to take away those problems that come with these inconsistancies?

 

[astro]

Hey Transporter, have you ever used an ECU with autotune? Did it actually work?

Tntm- how would a closed loop system work with all the variables you mentioned? Haven't seen a closed loop system that can do all those things. I know the Motec system will deal with it because I have sensors that tell it what is going on and tables that adjust the fuel/timing accordingly.

 

[RIDECATS]

Matty,

Has anyone taken the time to see if one of "real" SAFMS companies would offer a unit with features = to the requirements sled applications have. When you look at the all the stuff the Motec, BigStuff units can do it's impressive but I'm betting if asked they might offer units that are scaled down.


Any mountain riders trying: http://bigstuff3.com/about/why-bigstuff3/ ??

 

[tntm7]

Hey Transporter, have you ever used an ECU with autotune? Did it actually work?

Tntm- how would a closed loop system work with all the variables you mentioned? Haven't seen a closed loop system that can do all those things. I know the Motec system will deal with it because I have sensors that tell it what is going on and tables that adjust the fuel/timing accordingly.

Motec, haltec, weber, and link, all will havce no problems runing in closed loop.
They all have lambda tune options as well.
How well does lambda tune work, you can just drive all day in lambda, you just open the lambda and do roll on passes, start real slow throttle pull, to flat out wisky gripping it. you can do a little trail cruse auto tuning to.
it just gets you real close, then do a few data logs and tweak the tune.

 

[Transporter]

Alot of systems dont work well with turbo applications or dont have autotune.I was looking at DTA or mabye even megasquirt lots of support and cheap.Check out susukihayabusa.org turbo section for lots of ideas.

 

[astro]

Motec, haltec, weber, and link, all will havce no problems runing in closed loop.
They all have lambda tune options as well.
How well does lambda tune work, you can just drive all day in lambda, you just open the lambda and do roll on passes, start real slow throttle pull, to flat out wisky gripping it. you can do a little trail cruse auto tuning to.
it just gets you real close, then do a few data logs and tweak the tune.

Have you ever done this? I just 4d mapped my Motec system and there is no Magic autotune system that does it for you. You can set quick Lambda with tables then ride with a laptop but it's not going to do it for you. Sure would save time if it would

 

[tntm7]

Yes I have, several of the ECM out have program modules that are about the size of BD box, and will allow lambda tune, along with zone fuel master fuel and complete timing zone adjustments without use of laptop.

 

[Transporter]

Would you totally get rid of oem ecu or just use new ecu for certain things like fuel management, ignition and whatever other things you wanted to control.That way you wouldnt have to play with warmup settings etc that factory ecu controls.