We may consider changing our "Club" to a "Gang" in order to attract the 20-30 somethings in order to have a changing of the guards.
You could hand out Flat Brim helmets.
Colorado Snowmobile Association - Opinions
- Thread starter marbuc77
- Start date
You could hand out Flat Brim helmets.
Just a little info for everyone.
SAWS, while a wonderful group, does almost nothing in Colorado. As of 6 months ago they did not have a strong presence here. I am not sure they have an official presence here at all. Last I know they were looking for some one to step up and be that person. Maybe one of you guys (backcountryislife, PJ) can step up and join them to be our state rep to SAWS. They asked me a year ago to do it but I am spread to thin already. Our local club, Mt. Sopris Rec Riders, belongs to them and pays dues but we have had no help from them on any land issues to speak of. Like I said before, great group, just no presence in Colorado. What ever money you guys donate to them goes out of state top fight battles in other states. A little FYI.
While I am a big supporter of Blue Ribbon and appreciate all they do, my first place to donate money and time after CSA would be to COHVCO. They do not represent any trails or grooming directly at all. They are 100% percent about protecting access whether no matter what time a year. They are all about fighting the "greenies" on what ever front necessary whether it be snow, mud or dirt. They do an outstanding job. The main reason I choose them over BR is because they are 100% about Colorado vs BR that is a national entity.
Now onto CSA and the snowmobiling clubs. I believe there is a serious misconception of what CSA and most of the clubs in the state do. Are we charged with the responsibility to preform the grooming for the state of Colorado? Yes we are, State Parks works with CSA and the local clubs to make sure this happens. Is this what we are all about? Is this the main thing we all care about? Do all any of us care about is smooth trail?
Uhhh not quite, matter of fact it’s pretty far down on the list of what we do. It’s about 3rd or 4th on the list. I would say after you get by land/access issues, Education and Promotion of the sport you might come to grooming. One of our main responsibilities is the constant fight to maintain snowmobile access for all the snowmobilers in the state. Grooming is a very small part of what we do anymore. While CSA does help to administer the grooming funds from the State Parks none of CSA's membership dues go directly to grooming. Those funds are used for a multitude of things, education and access issues being some of the main things. Without groups like CSA places like Spring Creek and Jones Pass would be closed down in a matter of years. Who do you think represents snowmobilers on issues in places like this where there are no recorded trail systems and no local clubs? Who do you think the Forest Service and BLM call when they need input or opinions on certain areas where there isn’t a club? It sure the hell isn’t SAWS or the local snowmobile dealer. The FS and BLM generally don’t don’t send a guy out to stand in the parking lots and get the rider input. The FS, BLM, County, City, State, Federal agencies and Media all want some organized group to talk to in land and access issues. Like Lance said, there is power in numbers and organized groups. In our club, most of us could care less about the grooming of the trails but we do it because it’s our responsibility. The reason 90% of us are there is to help provide a voice in protecting our access and our rights.
I used to be a big believer in keeping all the best spots hidden and not putting the coolest areas on the map and I could care less what the trails looked like because I didn’t ride them and I didn’t want everyone and their dog out there either. However I‘ve learned a few things over the years, things that were reconfirmed after this latest round on the Wilderness battle. The areas without some type of trail system, groomed or ungroomed doesn’t matter, and no sign of at least some organized group representing it are gonna be the first to go. Places like Spring Creek below Kremmling, Jones Pass and all that stuff north and south of Eisenhower Pass will be the first stuff to go. These were the areas the Wilderness types were pushing very hard to get because they knew there would be very little organized resentence to loosing them. BugIto (Lance) sat through the same meetings I did and saw the same maps. Go look at Polis’s proposal there is some of that stuff still in it. If it hadn’t been for clubs like Holy Cross Powder Hounds, Summit County Club (name escapes me, Rich Holcraft is their president) and MSSR plus groups like CSA and WRFA putting the pressure on they would have been included.
Believe it or not, the FS and other groups like that could give a crap about what a bunch of key board jockeys (myself included) on snowest have to say about an access or land closer issue. All they care about is the person or groups that are coming into their office and meeting them face to face. Right now those groups are extreme wilderness greenies and groups like CSA and COHVCO plus all the local clubs. My advise to those who do not believe in Clubs or groups like CSA is that they better get their butts into see their local rangers so they know what is going on in their favorite riding areas. If you don’t protect your favorite riding area, groups Hidden Gems will make every effort to protect it from you.
Joining clubs and CSA may not be the "cool thing to do" but it's the only effective way to help fight to protect our local riding areas.
SAWS, while a wonderful group, does almost nothing in Colorado. As of 6 months ago they did not have a strong presence here. I am not sure they have an official presence here at all. Last I know they were looking for some one to step up and be that person. Maybe one of you guys (backcountryislife, PJ) can step up and join them to be our state rep to SAWS. They asked me a year ago to do it but I am spread to thin already. Our local club, Mt. Sopris Rec Riders, belongs to them and pays dues but we have had no help from them on any land issues to speak of. Like I said before, great group, just no presence in Colorado. What ever money you guys donate to them goes out of state top fight battles in other states. A little FYI.
While I am a big supporter of Blue Ribbon and appreciate all they do, my first place to donate money and time after CSA would be to COHVCO. They do not represent any trails or grooming directly at all. They are 100% percent about protecting access whether no matter what time a year. They are all about fighting the "greenies" on what ever front necessary whether it be snow, mud or dirt. They do an outstanding job. The main reason I choose them over BR is because they are 100% about Colorado vs BR that is a national entity.
Now onto CSA and the snowmobiling clubs. I believe there is a serious misconception of what CSA and most of the clubs in the state do. Are we charged with the responsibility to preform the grooming for the state of Colorado? Yes we are, State Parks works with CSA and the local clubs to make sure this happens. Is this what we are all about? Is this the main thing we all care about? Do all any of us care about is smooth trail?
Uhhh not quite, matter of fact it’s pretty far down on the list of what we do. It’s about 3rd or 4th on the list. I would say after you get by land/access issues, Education and Promotion of the sport you might come to grooming. One of our main responsibilities is the constant fight to maintain snowmobile access for all the snowmobilers in the state. Grooming is a very small part of what we do anymore. While CSA does help to administer the grooming funds from the State Parks none of CSA's membership dues go directly to grooming. Those funds are used for a multitude of things, education and access issues being some of the main things. Without groups like CSA places like Spring Creek and Jones Pass would be closed down in a matter of years. Who do you think represents snowmobilers on issues in places like this where there are no recorded trail systems and no local clubs? Who do you think the Forest Service and BLM call when they need input or opinions on certain areas where there isn’t a club? It sure the hell isn’t SAWS or the local snowmobile dealer. The FS and BLM generally don’t don’t send a guy out to stand in the parking lots and get the rider input. The FS, BLM, County, City, State, Federal agencies and Media all want some organized group to talk to in land and access issues. Like Lance said, there is power in numbers and organized groups. In our club, most of us could care less about the grooming of the trails but we do it because it’s our responsibility. The reason 90% of us are there is to help provide a voice in protecting our access and our rights.
I used to be a big believer in keeping all the best spots hidden and not putting the coolest areas on the map and I could care less what the trails looked like because I didn’t ride them and I didn’t want everyone and their dog out there either. However I‘ve learned a few things over the years, things that were reconfirmed after this latest round on the Wilderness battle. The areas without some type of trail system, groomed or ungroomed doesn’t matter, and no sign of at least some organized group representing it are gonna be the first to go. Places like Spring Creek below Kremmling, Jones Pass and all that stuff north and south of Eisenhower Pass will be the first stuff to go. These were the areas the Wilderness types were pushing very hard to get because they knew there would be very little organized resentence to loosing them. BugIto (Lance) sat through the same meetings I did and saw the same maps. Go look at Polis’s proposal there is some of that stuff still in it. If it hadn’t been for clubs like Holy Cross Powder Hounds, Summit County Club (name escapes me, Rich Holcraft is their president) and MSSR plus groups like CSA and WRFA putting the pressure on they would have been included.
Believe it or not, the FS and other groups like that could give a crap about what a bunch of key board jockeys (myself included) on snowest have to say about an access or land closer issue. All they care about is the person or groups that are coming into their office and meeting them face to face. Right now those groups are extreme wilderness greenies and groups like CSA and COHVCO plus all the local clubs. My advise to those who do not believe in Clubs or groups like CSA is that they better get their butts into see their local rangers so they know what is going on in their favorite riding areas. If you don’t protect your favorite riding area, groups Hidden Gems will make every effort to protect it from you.
Joining clubs and CSA may not be the "cool thing to do" but it's the only effective way to help fight to protect our local riding areas.
I am not positive but the ESPN gig is a paid job and the sleds are part of his package with Poo. You can't blame a guy for trying to make a lot of money and being successful at it.
I've personally met Chris twice, once at a focus group and once at the Mile High club meeting. Both times he was pretty vocal about being active and saving our riding area.
Just because he's not on the internet complaining doesn't mean he's not trying to do his part.
I've personally met Chris twice, once at a focus group and once at the Mile High club meeting. Both times he was pretty vocal about being active and saving our riding area.
Just because he's not on the internet complaining doesn't mean he's not trying to do his part.
Two very good posts by Farmer and WC. It's easy to voice your opinion through the 4M but not really make something happen (I've done it several times!).
The truth is we are at a cross roads with the clubs in Colorado. We are not like the mid-west or eastern clubs. Those clubs center around a trail structure and are more family orienented for better or worse. We need more people that don't like the way CSA or the local clubs operate to step forward and help us progress to the next level. Sean's right, help the clubs, COHVCO, BR, SAWS or other group if this is your passion.
The truth is we are at a cross roads with the clubs in Colorado. We are not like the mid-west or eastern clubs. Those clubs center around a trail structure and are more family orienented for better or worse. We need more people that don't like the way CSA or the local clubs operate to step forward and help us progress to the next level. Sean's right, help the clubs, COHVCO, BR, SAWS or other group if this is your passion.
Some great thoughts, especially Farmer and Bugito. BCIL should be happy for groomed trails-- the trail is a presence and a reminder to all that there are users in the areas.
May be a cynical comment, and its half (or so) in jest: but here it goes: The trails keep some out of the places BCIL wants to ride by providing an alternative and some structure. DONATE!
May be a cynical comment, and its half (or so) in jest: but here it goes: The trails keep some out of the places BCIL wants to ride by providing an alternative and some structure. DONATE!
Good point, and some great points Sean.
Part of the reason I posted was to see what I was missing in the equation, and there's some things that of course, I didn't think of that way.
As to losing the areas without trails, honestly, as soon as there is a trail... I could care less. We lost Jones last year, I don't ride there anymore. People still constantly ask me how it is... I don't know. We got a trail from having a cat, now the place is filled with tards.
VP... same deal. The only thing I DO want in an area is somewhere that filters out the jackasses.
I know I come across harsh, and I stated that right up front, but I just disagree with how things are done.
That said, there are a few changes that I will be making. I'm going to join the club in Scummit (seem to ride there more now that Jones is screwed) and I'll just give to BRC instead of saws. I thought they were more nationwide (including CO I mean).
Honestly, I can't think of anywhere other than RE that's worth going to that has a trail system.
I personally feel that if the money for grooming was spent on land preservation instead, we'd be further ahead. I'm sure I'm wrong on that, but I can tell you that there would be at least a few other people willling to join HCPH if that were the case (I know a few others that 100% agree with me on the grooming thing).
That said, I VERY MUCH appreciate the efforts of those that put in the work to help with land issues, and am willing to do more along those fronts, I feel it's an important issue.
I REALLY do not want to belittle the efforts of those that do contribute, just to be clear. I just want to belittle the existence of TRAILS!
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B
BackCountryBob
Well-known member
Groomed trails are very important to the Mile Hi Club as we are a family oriented club that take our younger riders on the trail to the powder and back. We are big in Safety, snowmobiling etiquette and respect for the environment. Hopefully we are helping our kids to become good citizens of the high country and not the parking lot posers we all love to hate.
We also have a number of retired members, who by nature of their age, appreciate some groomed trails. These guys carry most of the water for the club as they have the time and experience to support the club and CSA.
We also have a fair number of married couples and the women like trails as well. The rest of the club members do their own thing and ride the boonies and high mark. We all enjoy and rely on the maintained parking lots, out houses and trail signage and maps the clubs provide. Without these amenities Search and Rescue and Flight for Life would not be able to perform.
We appreciate the efforts the grooming clubs make and offer a big "thank you" for the time and energy they spend for our enjoyment of the high country. Without CSA and the clubs that support them, snowmobiling would probably become extinct.
BTW, let's thank Colorado State Parks Trails for their continued support of snowmobiling
BCB
We also have a number of retired members, who by nature of their age, appreciate some groomed trails. These guys carry most of the water for the club as they have the time and experience to support the club and CSA.
We also have a fair number of married couples and the women like trails as well. The rest of the club members do their own thing and ride the boonies and high mark. We all enjoy and rely on the maintained parking lots, out houses and trail signage and maps the clubs provide. Without these amenities Search and Rescue and Flight for Life would not be able to perform.
We appreciate the efforts the grooming clubs make and offer a big "thank you" for the time and energy they spend for our enjoyment of the high country. Without CSA and the clubs that support them, snowmobiling would probably become extinct.
BTW, let's thank Colorado State Parks Trails for their continued support of snowmobiling
BCB
I don't completly agree with you BCIL, but I get you. I too don't want anyone around me when I ride. Just the group I went out with. It's amazing how many ra-tards there are in our sport.
I'm not trying to change your mind, but understand that club dues do not DIRECTLY go to grooming funds. Grooming funds come from state park money, and that money comes from off road vehicle registration (so you are probably already paying!!!). Club dues go to club operating (stuff like parties, charty events, efforts toward keeping areas open, special events, etc.).
Now, Bushy made a good point. What has SAWS or even BR done for Colorado? They are spread all over. There are fights in Montana, Utah and even Idaho. So, we need CSA and WRFA (White River Forest Alliance) to help us here in Colorado.
I'm not trying to change your mind, but understand that club dues do not DIRECTLY go to grooming funds. Grooming funds come from state park money, and that money comes from off road vehicle registration (so you are probably already paying!!!). Club dues go to club operating (stuff like parties, charty events, efforts toward keeping areas open, special events, etc.).
Now, Bushy made a good point. What has SAWS or even BR done for Colorado? They are spread all over. There are fights in Montana, Utah and even Idaho. So, we need CSA and WRFA (White River Forest Alliance) to help us here in Colorado.
Like I said, to my knowledge SAWS has done very little in Colorado. It's not lack of wanting too but more a lack of leadership. In talking with them in the past, they feel in order for them to try and help an area the most effectivly it requires some sort of "point man" or State Rep, which I agree with, Blue Ribbon does the same. They find a group to work through and go from there. As far as SAWS, the way I understood it was they have never had anyone step up that was willing to fill that "Represenative role". They had a few that were interested I guess but no one worked out for one reason or another.
If one of you guys would be willing to donate a little time and be their Colorado Rep I think that would be awsome. It would be nice to have their presence in Colorado.
If one of you guys would be willing to donate a little time and be their Colorado Rep I think that would be awsome. It would be nice to have their presence in Colorado.
Part of our "western problem" is sheer numbers. We don't have the clout of the easterners that results from numbers. Backcountry Bob mentions families; there are a lot of riders who don't want to, can't (and another whole flock that shouldn't) go off trail. Snowmobiling needs to keep and recruit all riding styles. Trails can attract and keep people looking for riding at a level different than those of us who aren't happy unless we're stuck or on some edge of doom or another. Numbers count, and we can be counted by joining clubs. Clubs and registrations get the trails and the politics done.
BRC has been active in Colorado. I think they were active in the Pike National Forest dirtbike trails dust-up and have been involved in others (GMUG, San Juan, perhaps Hidden Gems).
There are more instances, but I know of two in which I was involved with BRC. I have worked with Bryan directly on Colorado legislation. (I think it was the state law enforcement authority extension language that would have extended closed unless posted open well beyond the federal extent, even on federal lands).
This year, we prepared comments to meet the recently denied petition to limit travel across snow to designated trails. Glad that went away for a while.
BCIL, glad to hear you'll go w/ Summit. I had a lot of fun back in the 80's with that club. Sounds like Ron is still active-- he and his family are good people. I'm sure there are others still in the club that I rode with.
03RMK800
BRC has been active in Colorado. I think they were active in the Pike National Forest dirtbike trails dust-up and have been involved in others (GMUG, San Juan, perhaps Hidden Gems).
There are more instances, but I know of two in which I was involved with BRC. I have worked with Bryan directly on Colorado legislation. (I think it was the state law enforcement authority extension language that would have extended closed unless posted open well beyond the federal extent, even on federal lands).
This year, we prepared comments to meet the recently denied petition to limit travel across snow to designated trails. Glad that went away for a while.
BCIL, glad to hear you'll go w/ Summit. I had a lot of fun back in the 80's with that club. Sounds like Ron is still active-- he and his family are good people. I'm sure there are others still in the club that I rode with.
03RMK800
I'm glad to have my mind changed! I'm not unwilling to give, and if I can believe in something, but something that does some good & some bad I have to give SERIOUS thought to, and that's the main reason I open myself up to seeing what's out there for contrary opinions. I may hate trails & the gapers that follow with them... but I sure don't want to help the opposition, by simple omission of support for a good cause.
BRC has been very active in the Hidden Gems debate. Brian Hawthorne has went above and beyond to help us. He even came and met with us face to face last fall to discuss strategy. We coulldn't of done it with out support from BRC, COHVCO or CSA.
CSA does a lot more than just groom trails- Trails are a necessary evil and really do a lot for the sport as a whole. CSA just sent a group to DC to meet with every member of the Colorado delegation's office on snowmobile related issues including
1. Hidden gems (which is smaller now than ever)
2. the new wilderness study release act, which would release all study areas that the forest service has previously found unsuitable for wilderness but can't release
3. the rec trails program which provides a significant portion of funding
4. E15 ethanol issues that EPA wants on the ground and running in august
the wolverine reintroduction, despite DOE testing 28 engines on E15 and all of them failing
5. Dianna DeGettes wilderness bill (that started a good discussion with her office)
6. The forest Service's new planning rule
CSA also met with department of interior offcials regarding the proposed wildlands inventory and the NCA/NRA process
CSA is also watching the merger of State Parks and DOW VERY closely to make sure that registration fees are not stolen and used for illegal purposes, like the greenies have tried to do before.
Also looking at possible solutions for the general parking lot issues for the state
State parks has been a great champion of snowmobiling, and CSA has a great relationship with them. State Parks just took a Parks Board member out for a day long ride on Rabbit ears and he had a great time and now directly mentions the program as a great program when people discuss state parks with him
1. Hidden gems (which is smaller now than ever)
2. the new wilderness study release act, which would release all study areas that the forest service has previously found unsuitable for wilderness but can't release
3. the rec trails program which provides a significant portion of funding
4. E15 ethanol issues that EPA wants on the ground and running in august
the wolverine reintroduction, despite DOE testing 28 engines on E15 and all of them failing
5. Dianna DeGettes wilderness bill (that started a good discussion with her office)
6. The forest Service's new planning rule
CSA also met with department of interior offcials regarding the proposed wildlands inventory and the NCA/NRA process
CSA is also watching the merger of State Parks and DOW VERY closely to make sure that registration fees are not stolen and used for illegal purposes, like the greenies have tried to do before.
Also looking at possible solutions for the general parking lot issues for the state
State parks has been a great champion of snowmobiling, and CSA has a great relationship with them. State Parks just took a Parks Board member out for a day long ride on Rabbit ears and he had a great time and now directly mentions the program as a great program when people discuss state parks with him
Good to see all the comments and opinions. It's fun to see what people are thinking and doing. It even sounds like a few people might have changed their opinions.
Hope everyone has a good weekend and gets some TRAIL riding in.
Hope everyone has a good weekend and gets some TRAIL riding in.
Deep snow scares me! 
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