CLOSNG IT DOWN !!
- Thread starter snomoride
- Start date
Yeah this started three years ago.
That's when they started the lawsuit and the decision was reached almost 6 months ago.
As far as getting the 'feds' out, the grant funding for the sled grooming programs is THROUGH the forest service. You don't necessarily want 'the feds' out of this one, they're not the ones causing this. They're just being legally forced to respond.
Stanislaus, Eldorado, Tahoe, Plumas and Lassen National Forests are the ones being sued. If you have an area in one of these districts where grooming occurs and you want to keep it that way, this will apply to you.
And no one is shutting anything down. What's going on is the forest service is being forced to provide a more detailed assessment on their snowmobile grooming program as far as environmental and user impacts.
But yes, everyone in CA should know about snowlands. They're the ones trying to get sleds banned from anywhere they can park their car and see snow. They're the ones you need to blame, not 'the feds'. The forest service is just reacting to 'public' demand (through lawsuits). Right now one of those squeaky wheels is snowlands.
I went and talked to someone at the Tahoe FS district when the decision was reached and they had no idea how they were going to even address it at that point. They have until the end of next year to have a solution. The best thing you can do now is just get in touch with your local rangers and find out specifically what you can do to voice your support for the grooming program.
Keep in mind snowlands are the idiots who go to areas groomed on snowmobile money (grants and registration dollars) and then bltch about sleds. There are a lot of people in the FS who realize how idiotic this is. Don't assume the FS is always your enemy. There are some good people working there. The best thing you can do is just be louder than snowlands. It's pretty easy to find flaws in their arguments if you spend 10 minutes reading the BS on their website. I was emailing one of their board members back and forth for a month a while ago and they really are just lazy, grumpy sue happy lawyers that don't know how to find a wilderness area on a map. And half of the time they don't even know who manages a given area. They were suing the Tahoe national forest over an area they don't even own or manage.
If you have any friends who are backcountry skiers, it's important to let them know that literally all snowlands does is try to kick sledders out, and gripe at land managers to do this. They're not speaking FOR skiers as much as AGAINST sledders. They're a one trick pony.
For anyone in Tahoe, this particular lawsuit doesn't apply since the LTBMU doesn't groom anything. They are however likely going to file another lawsuit griping about riding sunken meadows up in blackwood, spooner summit, and the area between kings beach and martis peak (some of the only non-wilderness in around the lake). So if you know anyone in the LTBMU, make your voice heard there.
I despise everything snowlands represents (and I'm a skier) but running around with half-information pretending your hair is on fire doesn't do anyone any good. It's good to know what's actually going on.
You said this in your land use thread snowmoride:
Who are 'the osv folk' in sacramento that you're talking about? Might wanna let people know who's legal team to give money to.
That's when they started the lawsuit and the decision was reached almost 6 months ago.
As far as getting the 'feds' out, the grant funding for the sled grooming programs is THROUGH the forest service. You don't necessarily want 'the feds' out of this one, they're not the ones causing this. They're just being legally forced to respond.
Stanislaus, Eldorado, Tahoe, Plumas and Lassen National Forests are the ones being sued. If you have an area in one of these districts where grooming occurs and you want to keep it that way, this will apply to you.
And no one is shutting anything down. What's going on is the forest service is being forced to provide a more detailed assessment on their snowmobile grooming program as far as environmental and user impacts.
But yes, everyone in CA should know about snowlands. They're the ones trying to get sleds banned from anywhere they can park their car and see snow. They're the ones you need to blame, not 'the feds'. The forest service is just reacting to 'public' demand (through lawsuits). Right now one of those squeaky wheels is snowlands.
I went and talked to someone at the Tahoe FS district when the decision was reached and they had no idea how they were going to even address it at that point. They have until the end of next year to have a solution. The best thing you can do now is just get in touch with your local rangers and find out specifically what you can do to voice your support for the grooming program.
Keep in mind snowlands are the idiots who go to areas groomed on snowmobile money (grants and registration dollars) and then bltch about sleds. There are a lot of people in the FS who realize how idiotic this is. Don't assume the FS is always your enemy. There are some good people working there. The best thing you can do is just be louder than snowlands. It's pretty easy to find flaws in their arguments if you spend 10 minutes reading the BS on their website. I was emailing one of their board members back and forth for a month a while ago and they really are just lazy, grumpy sue happy lawyers that don't know how to find a wilderness area on a map. And half of the time they don't even know who manages a given area. They were suing the Tahoe national forest over an area they don't even own or manage.
If you have any friends who are backcountry skiers, it's important to let them know that literally all snowlands does is try to kick sledders out, and gripe at land managers to do this. They're not speaking FOR skiers as much as AGAINST sledders. They're a one trick pony.
For anyone in Tahoe, this particular lawsuit doesn't apply since the LTBMU doesn't groom anything. They are however likely going to file another lawsuit griping about riding sunken meadows up in blackwood, spooner summit, and the area between kings beach and martis peak (some of the only non-wilderness in around the lake). So if you know anyone in the LTBMU, make your voice heard there.
I despise everything snowlands represents (and I'm a skier) but running around with half-information pretending your hair is on fire doesn't do anyone any good. It's good to know what's actually going on.
You said this in your land use thread snowmoride:
snowmoride said:
Who are 'the osv folk' in sacramento that you're talking about? Might wanna let people know who's legal team to give money to.
Last edited:
great Clarity thanks for the post
Closeing it down
Yes I'm pissed !! I'm here in Stanislaus National Forest and our Head Ranger has no comment . They just say that's the way it is ! But as far as the Grooming funds it does come from green sticker and reg. fee's but it is State monies that Feds administer , I did the grooming here in 08-09 so know where the money came from . The State did a CEQUA study and was to be good for 10 years they spent a lot of money on it and now they say it's not worth the paper it's wrote on (snowlands) ! We need to get our SH^T together and start asking questions and get some more folks involved , Just a hand full of us won't get it done.
Yes I'm pissed !! I'm here in Stanislaus National Forest and our Head Ranger has no comment . They just say that's the way it is ! But as far as the Grooming funds it does come from green sticker and reg. fee's but it is State monies that Feds administer , I did the grooming here in 08-09 so know where the money came from . The State did a CEQUA study and was to be good for 10 years they spent a lot of money on it and now they say it's not worth the paper it's wrote on (snowlands) ! We need to get our SH^T together and start asking questions and get some more folks involved , Just a hand full of us won't get it done.
Right but since most (maybe all?) of the grooming occurs on FS managed land, regardless of who does it, this decision does and will involve them. They can reach a conclusion that this does or does not negatively affect the land in some way and that decides if grooming can happen at all. You can't remove the FS from the equation because even if the grooming funds go to someone else, then it's another permit process for each location and all this infrastructure has to be built up again.
I'd rather the FS just have some data to tell snowlands to piss off and be able to substantiate their OSV designation. It's pretty apparent the FS doesn't WANT to play this game, otherwise they would have from the outset and snowlands wouldn't be suing them.
It can't be that hard to do, I mean read some of the crap on their page and in their suits. They throw around wild environmental assumptions based on data from yellowstone, probably the single most crowded snowmobile trailhead in the country. They claim that areas that rarely even see a snowmobile magically displace skiers. When I go skiing, I've got no problem whatsoever getting away from sleds if I want to. If you can find snow in this state, chances are you're already pretty close to a wilderness boundary. They just want the world at their doorstep.
Anyway, what group in sacramento were you referencing? I'd like to talk to them.
Yes I agree with most of what you said, We just need to have more of us getting on this or guess what THEY WILL WIN and will put all of us out of riding or what ever we what to do in the Forest. All you have to do is Call California State Snowparks the number is on your Parking permit. And where I ride ,yep it can be up against to W Boundary that's fine with me I'm not in it , But it sure better not move any closer than it is right now , Case in point Hope Valley area, When I first rode over there in 1995 there was a lot more area that was open to ride, then year after year the Boundaries moved in closer, FS was handing out maps that Red Penciled NO RIDING, 4 years in a row we went there to ride at least once a year and this happened every time moved closer and closer to the road . you and know that they the FS can't do this with going thru a bunch of hoops , So that's why WE ALL NEED to keep calling and writing in to the right people and keeping SnowLands from spreading there Need less CRAP around.
A little about the Funds and how they get it (FEDS) The funds come from the State Green Sticker monies and Reg . from DMV, The State has Grooming guide lines and Equipment specs they give to the FEDS. When we bid we with the FEDs , FEDs award the contract , FEDS admin the Contract. And that's fine only if the guy at the FED level will do his job right . Here in the Stanislaus we have had a problem with that other places here in California and out of the Stan. Forest it seems to work well. And in other states North of us and Id,Mt. and so on. The OSV guy's have been at our snow park before and along with some folks from Davis (UCD) asking what can be done by the FS to make it better, there is always good feed back to them just seems like it doesn't do much for us here. Time will tell!
Similar threads
