Big Bore Challenge

[nuggetau]

Each year I see the endless threads about who's big bore works and who's doesn't. I would like more HP, but the sales pitch always sounds too good to be true, and what the detractors have to say exists at the other end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle is where the truth lives but all we ever get for info is the sales pitch or the anecdotal praise or recrimination. So, hows a guy to ever put your money on the product that delivers real performance? That is why I would like to make the "Big Bore Challenge". All the BB builders would be invited to come to McCall Idaho at a specific date, we would video how all the BB's run on the same make/chassis/track/rider/snow. Then for the very first time we the buying public would have real world data to compare.

If a BB builder didn't want to participate or couldn't because of other commitments they could assign one of their customers sleds to represent them.

I would be willing to handle all the coordination, and even if none of the BB builders want to participate, I say we still do it! We just use customers sleds, that gives the BB builders an incentive to participate so their product gets represented to their satisfaction.

Trying to get everyone to show up with identical sleds (other than motors) would likely be a challenge but I think we could still pull it off.

Please refrain from making comments about any specific builder, as we have heard enough trash talk. I just want to see some real world comparison that I see with my own eyes.

Any BB builder who is willing to participate, PM me and I will coordinate all the details. If the BB builders don't respond then I will make a request for a specific sled here with a specific builders engine so that everyone will be represented one way or another. hint, hint

I have no ax to grind with any of the BB builders, I just want a real world competition to assess their performance.

We will have to rely on the honesty and integrity of the participants NOT to show up with a "special" motor without disclosing the additional mods!(Mods beyond their conventional BB)

Please don't let this thread turn into a bickerfest! Thanks

 

[tdorval]

I like it. Hopefully it all works out. This is why I wish more big bore companies did like Trygstad and had demo sleds all over. So are you hoping to have RKT, BMP, Carls, and PAR. Any others I'm missing? Maybe have some pump gas turbos there to compare to as well!

 

[nuggetau]

I like it. Hopefully it all works out. This is why I wish more big bore companies did like Trygstad and had demo sleds all over. So are you hoping to have RKT, BMP, Carls, and PAR. Any others I'm missing? Maybe have some pump gas turbos there to compare to as well!

Hopefully those 4, but anyone who is a BB builder is welcome! I would like to include the turbo builders as well, but just trying to get the 4 BB builders to show up will be an accomplishment.

Ideally we would have a Pro 155 (more 155's than 163's sold I think) from each builder that is 100% stock other than what they include in their BB package. If we have to rely on customers to bring their sleds it might be harder to find people who have big bores that haven't already done other mods.

 

[Thundy]

You will never get all the builders together. too risky if only one can win then 3 wreck any kind of sales they would of had.

 

[nuggetau]

You will never get all the builders together. too risky if only one can win then 3 wreck any kind of sales they would of had.

It likely won't be that cut and dry, but rather a mix of results, with most of them being somewhat close to each other. Just because one pulls a couple lengths higher on the mountain won't make it "the" winner in my mind, their is still throttle response, low end torque, etc. to evaluate.

Also important to note, I will not report any winner per se, I will simply video the climbs, and make notes about what other characteristics the riders comment on. I will act as an impartial reporter not a judge. I will leave the interpretation to you guys!

 

[nuggetau]

You will never get all the builders together. too risky if only one can win then 3 wreck any kind of sales they would of had.

On the other foot, a builder who does show up, maybe he gets a boost in sales for being willing to show up and represent confidence in his product.

 

[Jay]

An interesting idea but I doubt you will get the actual builders to participate. There are just to many variables to prove anything really. A slightly better set up sled, a slighty better rider, a guy catches a better line, I've seen snow change in an hour so from first climb to last can be an advantage. I hope you can put it together, it would be a great show. Maybe you could get a few old school mods in there also, an old UB 900, an old carls 910, an old 1200 W/C triple. Good luck, keep us posted.

 

[mmsports]

I in

I am for it. if you do it at the right time of year I might even have my Polaris sled.

 

[boondocker97]

Seems like we used to see a lot more of this kind of thing before the economy downturn in '08. More people spending money didn't make it so bad to have comparative reviews because they were getting sales anyway.

This was really the case with the sport ATV market. Back in like '05 a magazine took 5 or 6 aftermarked companies and gave them a $10,000 mod buget to spend on a sport ATV of their choice to build the best overall machine. They tested for recreational riding, dunes, and on a motocross track and recorded the results. Four of them started with the same stock machine so it was interesting to see which engines and chassis components were better for each type of riding. I would really like to see a sled comparison like this.

 

[nuggetau]

An interesting idea but I doubt you will get the actual builders to participate. There are just to many variables to prove anything really. A slightly better set up sled, a slighty better rider, a guy catches a better line, I've seen snow change in an hour so from first climb to last can be an advantage. I hope you can put it together, it would be a great show. Maybe you could get a few old school mods in there also, an old UB 900, an old carls 910, an old 1200 W/C triple. Good luck, keep us posted.

The way I would like to run the hillclimbing portion of the competition is with a single rider, (a local rider with exceptional skills who has no ax to grind and full coverage insurance) that way you remove the rider, weight, skill factor. We would ride to a good location, draw numbers for ride order and the single rider would make all the rides. Then move to a new location, draw numbers again to change the ride order and so on until we have hammered 5-6 hills.

I would like to have a couple PG turbo's just for comparison, but they would always have to run last on each hill after all the testing for the big bores was done.

Once the hill climbing portion is filmed, then we all spend 1-2 days riding the sleds to get an evaluation of the many other aspects of a big bore that matter as much as peak horsepower, like throttle response, bottom end torque, clutch performance, etc. These things are much more opinion, and can't be as easily quantified as who goes higher, but they matter, and without evaluating those characteristics it wouldn't really tell us everything I think we want to know.

 

[nuggetau]

I am for it. if you do it at the right time of year I might even have my Polaris sled.

I am tentatively thinking the second half of January, but I am willing to adjust for the needs of the participants.

 

[mmsports]

all models

you ought to post this in the other sections also.

 

[mtncat1]

it would be kind of a neat idea but I highly doubt it would happen ,besides that you want to have a guy that does a stock over bored cylinder and compare that kit with one that has custom cast cylinders. plus what pipe set ups singles twins, etc. etc. I guess your just gonna have to decide what to buy the old fashioned way.

 

[nuggetau]

you ought to post this in the other sections also.

I assume you mean to expand to all 3 brands? If so, I would have to say that wouldn't be possible.

Going into this I thought I would have a slim chance of getting the builders to participate, so in actuality the only way this comparison will happen is to ask owners to bring their sleds. That will likely make the process more difficult, to find a big bore from each builder that doesn't have other mods will be a challenge. People who want a big bore typically do other mods too.

So just trying to find 4 sleds with a big bore with clutching, fuel delivery and pipes(no other mods) who are willing to show up on the same day will be a challenge, try and make it 3 brands and 12 sleds wouldn't work.

I really want a direct real world comparison, I think it's worth trying.

 

[nuggetau]

it would be kind of a neat idea but I highly doubt it would happen ,besides that you want to have a guy that does a stock over bored cylinder and compare that kit with one that has custom cast cylinders. plus what pipe set ups singles twins, etc. etc. I guess your just gonna have to decide what to buy the old fashioned way.

Each builder would be able to show up with their BB setup, meaning their BB, the pipes they recommend, the carburetor/fuel mapping setup they recommend, and clutching setup that they recommend. The only thing I would want to exclude is any mod that they don't currently offer and recommend to their clientele. Plus, must be PG fueled with no additives.

Each participant would need to fill out a "Mod disclosure form" listing every mod made to the motor, exhaust, fuel delivery and clutching. Minus anything they consider a trade secret.

The "Mod disclosure forms" would be published so everyone would know exactly how they compare. It would be up to you guys to evaluate whether one or another had an advantage based on the mods that were done.

So, if your point is that it wouldn't be a 100% apples to apples comparison, I have to agree, but it sure beats what we have for real world info now.

 

[Kleiny]

shoot out

Great Idea but personally I would rather have longevity and reliability over a who make it to the finish line first. Sled builder that had there sled run on the very edge would probably win .

 

[Jay]

You've covered the initial problems I thought of by using the same rider and mixing it up, makes sense to me. I say go for it, I'd love to see the big bores go head to head. like the saying goes, "the bullsh!t stops when the green flag drops"

 

[800xtreme]

One suggestion to add to the Mod Disclosure form would be are they running pump gas or race gas or mixture? I don't think you would need to require them to be one or the other, just disclose what it is so everyone knew.

I personally love this idea. Probably won't get the BB builders to show up but I bet you get customers with BB's to show up. I have a PAR 910 and would consdier making the trip from Colorado. I would love to know if RK Tek's 860 or Jack's 900 kicks the crap out of my sled so I know what to buy next year . It would be great just to be around all these big bores in person at one time. Perhaps throw a leg over a couple of them and see how they feel in comparison to mine.

You will never be able to make it 100% apples to apples but I think you are doing the best you can. Plus, the main point to me is this would be a fantastic time to share and meet other riders from all over.

Keep it going bro...

 

[nuggetau]

Great Idea but personally I would rather have longevity and reliability over a who make it to the finish line first. Sled builder that had there sled run on the very edge would probably win .

I agree, durability and reliability really matters! Frankly, that is my biggest criticism of the stock motors. How does one choose a "reliable" motor/builder? It's not like there is any data available regarding longevity on these motors other than anecdotal stories from a few owners. Most anecdotal commentary comes from two camps, the cheerleaders and the complainers, neither of which really tell the true story.

 

[nuggetau]

One suggestion to add to the Mod Disclosure form would be are they running pump gas or race gas or mixture? I don't think you would need to require them to be one or the other, just disclose what it is so everyone knew.

I personally love this idea. Probably won't get the BB builders to show up but I bet you get customers with BB's to show up. I have a PAR 910 and would consdier making the trip from Colorado. I would love to know if RK Tek's 860 or Jack's 900 kicks the crap out of my sled so I know what to buy next year . It would be great just to be around all these big bores in person at one time. Perhaps throw a leg over a couple of them and see how they feel in comparison to mine.

You will never be able to make it 100% apples to apples but I think you are doing the best you can. Plus, the main point to me is this would be a fantastic time to share and meet other riders from all over.

Keep it going bro...

As far as I know the 4 BB's listed all are designed to run pump gas, so I would like to keep it a level playing field in that regard, or I think someone would want to install a higher comp piston/head and run race fuel.


If I can't make the direct comparison challenge happen I might just re-brand the meetup to the "Big Bore Bash", and invite anyone who wants to show up with a BB or turbo and film the comparisons. Everyone would still be required to fill out the "mod disclosure form" then we would all be able to have some means of comparing. This would be a lot of fun, but far less scientific, and the comparisons I fear would be endlessly debated. I have grown very weary of the internet bickering, so I don't know if I would want to be the one who added even more fuel to the endless brand battle that takes place here on the net. That's one of the reasons I wanted to keep it too just one brand for this challenge.

The "Big Bore bash" would likely get a lot of participation, but the scientific comparison value would be limited at best, so I would still prefer to do a direct comparison.