"Best all around Bike?" 2013 Build Project

[mtn-doo]

Hey guys,

It's August and time for another build. There was a common question asked by everyone last year. "If you could walk into a dealer and buy a bike with all the benefits to make it the "best all around bike", which one would it be? That is a great question and a debatable and difficult one. That is the theme of this years build project.

After months of research. Articles and reviews, I chose a Make and model for the build. The facts and details I will attach are all from 3rd party groups, not the bias advertising from the manufacturer. The "needs" and "characteristics" that are beneficial as a snow bike are some times different than those for dirt use. Like rear suspension, fastest out of a deep berm on a super-cross track, or ease of handling while 30ft in the air!

There were several tough choices but the short list was narrowed down to the Husaberg 501, the Husqvarna 449 and 511, the KTM 500 XCW, and the KTM 450 SXF and XCF.

The bike I felt that had all the benefits and advantages, though some were small, was the KTM 450 SXF. As I go through the project I will try and give the specific reasons and differences.

The build will include; - 2013 KTM 450 SXF
- IMS 3.1 Gallon Tank
- Pro Circuit T-5 Exhaust
- KTM 168F Thermostat
- Air Box modifications
- 280 Belleville Spring Washer
- Fastway Adventure Pegs
- Fastway 2" Riser
- Pro Bend Guards w/ low profile shields
- Moose Racing Hand Warmers
- UFO Plastics
- Graphics

Paired up to a Timbersled 137" Titanium LT

To keep the "theme" on track, this will be a "no hassle" project for everyone. No programmer required, no technical or expensive mod's to make a simple, "best all around"? Snowbike.

 

[Rush44]

It's time to start thinking about snow! Pumped!

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

you guys can go hold hands on your orange bikes instead of the green ones now

gonna be a fun bike randy! let me know if you do find the fueling needs some love.

 

[SLDHVN]

you guys can go hold hands on your orange bikes instead of the green ones now

Lol

Nice looking bike Randy

 

[mtn-doo]

you guys can go hold hands on your orange bikes instead of the green ones now

gonna be a fun bike randy! let me know if you do find the fueling needs some love.

I sure will. I'll keep you up to date with all the findings. Last year I found while riding with dealers who had the 2013 in their demo fleet some interesting results. There were no fueling issues, "gas in the oil" or rich acting problems. "Having to start with throttle cracked, etc" are rich symptoms. I learned that KTM's EFI is different than the other systems and is the only one of the bunch. It has the injector inverted, on the bottom of the throttle body. Further investigation revealed KTM's engineers reasoning. With air flow velocity tests, the greatest velocity in the throttle body was at the base of it. The top had turbulence and dead spots. That is where all of the others are located. They discovered by placing the injector in the area of the greatest velocity, they could realize noticeable performance benefits. Also they took advantage of the high velocity placement by reducing the amount of fuel "flow" to a leaner spray, but for a slightly longer duration. "Pulse Width". It appears that approach has reduced or nearly eliminated the common over fueling condition. The other factor is air flow. "ANY" reduction in air flow will amplify the over fueling condition. I am setting this bike up with their EFI system as is, and making sure there is all the air it will ever need. I think it will be acceptable with no controller. I will let you know what I find out.

 

[mtn-doo]

Well, first things first. Tear down. The quality and engineering in this bike is very impressive. Removed the sub-frame to get full access to everything. Not necessary to mount the kit, but I am going to strip it down and check everything out. While it is stripped, It will be a great time to swap the air box. It will be getting all new black UFO plastics and a new IMS 3.1 Gal gas tank.

 

[teal_210]

I sure will. I'll keep you up to date with all the findings. Last year I found while riding with dealers who had the 2013 in their demo fleet some interesting results. There were no fueling issues, "gas in the oil" or rich acting problems. "Having to start with throttle cracked, etc" are rich symptoms. I learned that KTM's EFI is different than the other systems and is the only one of the bunch. It has the injector inverted, on the bottom of the throttle body. Further investigation revealed KTM's engineers reasoning. With air flow velocity tests, the greatest velocity in the throttle body was at the base of it. The top had turbulence and dead spots. That is where all of the others are located. They discovered by placing the injector in the area of the greatest velocity, they could realize noticeable performance benefits. Also they took advantage of the high velocity placement by reducing the amount of fuel "flow" to a leaner spray, but for a slightly longer duration. "Pulse Width". It appears that approach has reduced or nearly eliminated the common over fueling condition. The other factor is air flow. "ANY" reduction in air flow will amplify the over fueling condition. I am setting this bike up with their EFI system as is, and making sure there is all the air it will ever need. I think it will be acceptable with no controller. I will let you know what I find out.

My riding buddy has a 2013 sx450. Over fueling is an issue for him, our first few rides he had so much gas in the oil that the bike wouldn't run. They're no different or better fueling wise than any other 450 mx bike IMO.

 

[mtn-doo]

Interesting..... There may have been other factors? Engine temps, thermostat, powder plugged foam filter, etc etc. There are many factors that contribute to over fueling. What was his intake system? Two dealers I have ran the SXF last year. We would service them in the evening. A mix of different bikes. The SXF's had not built any oil. The only ones that didn't. ? Time will tell. We will do a bunch of running and testing oil for gas. We did find that any reduction in air made a "pig rich" condition, obviously. Also a cold cylinder passes fuel. Engine temps are another factor. A lot of details make the outcome different. We made a custom cylinder snow filter for the SXF here with a local dealer. Tons of air, and never raised the oil level. We will test stock air boxes with altered ones also.

We will tweek and experiment to find a great set-up. Fun stuff.!

The Ti long track installed.

 

[dirtrebel]

ktm 450 sxf vs xc-f and xc-w

Looks nice! For the guy who wants to ride a new 450 ktm in the summer and winter could u tell us how u think a 450xc-f and an 450xc-w might work on snow? I see the xc-f has the linage rear suspension and resembles the sx-f a lot. Does the xc-f have more of a lighting coil in the stator than the sx-f? To me the xc-w looks like the bike of choice for summer enduro riding in the rocks and singletrack of Montana, it has the wide ratio tranny, which would hurt on snow a little, and is not a linkage rear suspension. (which matters if u want to try a ufo or tks kit) my question is do the engines of these 2 models put out the same power as the sx-f or are they detuned a lot. If a guy got say an xc-w for summer riding would it give up a lot on snow compared to the sx-f. And also would the xc-f be much different than the sx-f? Thanks for the input!

Here's the links to the 450 xcf and 450xcw ktm pages
http://www.ktm.com/us/enduro/450-xc-f-usa/highlights.html#.UfvbT6bnbIU
http://www.ktm.com/us/enduro/450-xc-w-usa/highlights.html#.UfvcfqbnbIU

 

[Gros Chien]

As far as power the SX-F is ± 15% more and if you consider the close ratio tranny, it is two different animals IMO. SX-F all the way is my advise if you have the choice.

 

[teal_210]

Interesting..... There may have been other factors? Engine temps, thermostat, powder plugged foam filter, etc etc. There are many factors that contribute to over fueling. What was his intake system?

Yes, those are things that contribute to over-fueling on all EFI bikes. Once resolved, the over-fueling problems go away. He runs a pod filter, thermostat, blocked radiators, etc.

I was just stating the the KTM suffers from these symptoms just like every other MX450 bike does in the snow.

 

[M5-]

How bad is the over fueling problem on the EFI bikes? Is it a nuisance or a real problem. My older carbed KTM got a little blubbery a few times but it ran great most of the time. I'm kinda looking at what my next bike will be and EFI is tops on my list both for summer and winter.

M5

 

[Rush44]

As far as power the SX-F is ± 15% more and if you consider the close ratio tranny, it is two different animals IMO. SX-F all the way is my advise if you have the choice.

Gros has it correct. The wide ratio tranny is not near as desirable as the close. The jumps between gears are too far and the result is you have to rev the ever-living piss out of the motor when transitioning up a gear while climbing... even doing that will result in a near bog on the bottom of the next gear. You want those gears nice and close together.

I don't know the story on the front forks of the XC-W, but the WR/YZ forks are different and come with different springs. I had to trade out my WR springs to the stiffest I could find and go to a thicker fork oil. Even after all that they still are not as stiff as you really want. Don't get me wrong, they work, but are not the best. My stance is build a bike for winter and make it work for the summer. Winter riding is the most important for me. Add a Rekluse and these bikes are completely manageable on tight technical single track.

I just wanted to note on mtn-doo's build here that while we will be running very similar bikes I plan on also continuing to run the Dobeck Gen4 fuel controller. Randy and I will do some comparisons on this issue once the snow arrives. Once Dobeck and I got the programming down on my KX I never had an over fuel problem again. But one factor that even a controller can't compete with is a cold case/piston/rings. Same goes for carb/EFI bikes alike.

 

[mtn-doo]

How bad is the over fueling problem on the EFI bikes? Is it a nuisance or a real problem. My older carbed KTM got a little blubbery a few times but it ran great most of the time. I'm kinda looking at what my next bike will be and EFI is tops on my list both for summer and winter.

M5

There seems to be a range of differences with fuel in the oil. Three years ago I was around a YZ450 that built so much oil after a day of riding you couldn't even tip it over to get a line on the sight window! It ran great all year but lots of fuel. After a teardown inspection, everything was in factory specs. Didn't seem to hurt anything.... crazy! Two years ago I ran a stock KX450F that had a "mild", nuisance of gas in the oil. I installed a Bazzaz fuel controlled and searched around trying different thermostats until I found the KTM70C, the one we are using today. That combo fixed it on the KXF. No gas in the oil. "I mean the oil level stayed in the middle of the widow for three rides between changes". Not a problem, just a nuisance. When we travel around on demo's we see a lot of different bikes and they all have varying levels of gas in the oil. Everybody's set up is different, and the results are all over the board. Many factors involved. There are modifications we can do to improve the issue though. To answer your question, it is a nuisance more than anything. You can run a stock bike and have a blast just the way they are. Just keep your oil changed. The beauty of a carb is that you can jet it for your temp and altitude and be done. There are ton of them riding and they are trouble free. The carb bikes lack the ECU and "cold mode" in the ecu which keeps adding fuel all day long because of a cold motor. I feel it is the cylinder coolant temp sensor sending a "cold motor" signal to the ECU, not so much the air temp sensor in the intake boot or the fuel map. The starting and stopping further aggravates the cold coolant temps which keep extra fuel in the mix.

Back to your carb question. I double checked this with a friend and dealer, "Brad, of Powersports Tech". He is a tech and also runs a carbbed 450F. I confirmed with him. No gas in the oil on the carbed 450F's. Any questions, give him a shout. Great guy. Power Sports Tech; Brad, 406-446-2019. Also, I was visiting with Jason at the Plant, "Timbersled", about this earlier today. There is a fleet of carbbed 450F's there and NONE have gas in oil issues. That is an EFI issue only.

APT is agressively getting the 450F application perfected for the Smart Carb. Corey told me they are working very well. More to come on that I am sure. I would love to do some testing for them again. The Smart Carb on the KX500 was amazing. The initial set up on this bike will be stock EFI, thermostat, and ton's of air. We want to be able to have an acceptable set up as a baseline with as few mods, alterations, or cost as possible. That is the goal of this project.

Then we will go from there....

We need to start a thread and discussion on this subject, great topic! Now back to the build project....

 

[mtn-doo]

Time for the exhaust. From MXA's dyno test, the SXF cranked out 60HP. That is very impressive. I will attach the link. It is under "weight and sound" toward the end of the article. I spoke with a tech at Pro Circuit about the exhaust. He told me it was the T5 system. Not the "TI" system. He informed me the "T5" system generated the most HP and over rev. Just what we like! I also learned Pro Circuit's motor dpt works with Ryan Villopoto, Ricky Charmichael, James Stewart and Chad Reed. wow, pretty impressive.

The Pro Circuit T5 has all machined ends and is a work of art. The fit was perfect. Super nice system.










http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/1ddd9019-5056-490f-b96d-57b5a384aeca.aspx

http://www.procircuit.com/

.

 

[mtn-doo]

The SXF 450 has a 1.9 gal tank. There is usually never a time we need more gas than the stock tank plus the 3 gal extra on the back. However, for the sake of having ton's of gas for a super long exploration ride etc., it would be fun to have all the gas you would ever need. I did some research for a replacement tank that looked stock, uses all stock fasteners, and uses stock plastics. The "IMS" 3.1 gallon does all of that. The fit was perfect. The plastics went right back where they came from and looks stock. You can't even tell it has 30% more volume. The fuel pump and pressure regulator were a simple swap thanks to KTM's design. The quick disconnect fuel line is brilliant. With a simple quick disconnect, the tank is off and the connector doesn't leak a drop. Very cool.

IMS 3.1 Gallon Tank - http://justgastanks.com/product_info.php?products_id=288

 

[Gros Chien]

OEM gas tank

Did you compare prices with KTM larger tank?

 

[mtn-doo]

Did you compare prices with KTM larger tank?

No I didn't. I should have checked the $ to be sure, but I assumed the KTM part would be at a premium price. Now I am curious? Ha, I will have to check. I remember they came in "natural" yellow-ish plastic, not Black. Didn't care for that look.

 

[mtn-doo]

Checked them out. I remember now why I chose the IMS last spring. The KTM oversized tanks, the 11L and 19L for the 2013 SXF come in "natural" plastic, not black. I am going with all new UFO black plastics. Didn't care for the white tank. The KTM 11L does not require any modifications, the KTM 19L does. The best prices I found are IMS 3.1 Gallon in Black, $247 and the KTM 2.9 Gallon in "Natural" $287.

 

[summitboy]

I understand the black look but the clear is the shizzle ! U can see the fuel and always know your situation. Your gonna miss the 500 LOL. I'll bring mine and you can relive perfection lol