Bearings with pg turbo 1000

[jrnbrg]

How well does the crankshaft and connecting rod bearings stand up when boosting what ever the pg m1000 kit does? And of course pistons?

What service intervals are one looking at?

What would have to be done on a sled with some miles on it before installing a kit? (2500miles).

Andreas

 

[product tester]

First pistions then have the crank checked 2500 is not a ton of miles the the crank feels smooth at 2500 rpm its probably ok The front clutch is key here if you have any wear or wobel then that is the first sign that your crank needs attention most of the 1000 crank problems I have seen have been caused by a bad clutch, The turbo is alot easier on the crank than assperated because of the smooth power and everytime you boost it forces the oil everywhere.
At 2500 miles I would not hesitate to tourbo and ride all season.

 

[RKT]

The turbo is alot easier on the crank than assperated because of the smooth power and everytime you boost it forces the oil everywhere.

With all due respect.... This simply not true or even close to being true..

 

[Snowstar]

^^^ Thats funny. Never seen a turbo crank fail but I have seen some nameless big bore crank failures.

 

[mmsports]

Popcorn

Popcorn Please

 

[MCIVER]

With all due respect.... This simply not true or even close to being true..

Could you explain why and give some technical detail as to why this isn't true. I don't know one way or the other but would like to. I've noticed that when people reply with a short answer calling someone wrong without an explantion the thread goes south fast, then nobody learns anything.

 

[mmsports]

Crank

I will give you my .02 on an M1000 crank. I believe they are not going to fail. I have seen some bad but they were all out of tolerance and I believe they came that way. I have never seen a bad one on a turbo they have all been on normally aspirated sleds.

So I do not worry about cranks period. Put some new pistons in your sled and go ride.

 

[RKT]

Could you explain why and give some technical detail as to why this isn't true. I don't know one way or the other but would like to. I've noticed that when people reply with a short answer calling someone wrong without an explantion the thread goes south fast, then nobody learns anything.

I would be glad to..

ANYTIME, turbo or N/A, you add more power to the engine, ANY ENGINE, it places more stress on the crank. So, if the engine is making more power then there is MORE stress on the crank train.. So, unless the turbo makes LESS power than stock, there is MORE crank load.

As for oil being forced with forced induction... The oil is suspended in the fuel. The oil has to come out of suspension in order to lubricate and travel (via gravity) to the bearings..

Like I said, "WITH ALL DUE RESPECT" I kept it civil.. but the content was simply incorrect..

Kelsey

 

[jrnbrg]

I am new to the turbo 2-stroke world, but wouldnt adding boost give the rods a harder life? Because of the added pressure above the pistons?
Or does the decreased compression compensate for that?

Just curious, so correct me if i'm wrong.

Andreas

 

[Boyko]

I would be glad to..

ANYTIME, turbo or N/A, you add more power to the engine, ANY ENGINE, it places more stress on the crank. So, if the engine is making more power then there is MORE stress on the crank train.. So, unless the turbo makes LESS power than stock, there is MORE crank load.

As for oil being forced with forced induction... The oil is suspended in the fuel. The oil has to come out of suspension in order to lubricate and travel (via gravity) to the bearings..

Like I said, "WITH ALL DUE RESPECT" I kept it civil.. but the content was simply incorrect..

Kelsey

You have to keep in mind that when properly set up a boost does not stress the engine out that much. Your peak clyinder pressure does not get raised that much. The key is to keep the flame front in time with the piston this is were you will find the sweet spot were most power is to be had at the fuels octane level.

Naturally aspirated you will get your peek cylinder pressure at around 10 degrees after top dead center.

Apply some boost and this happens later because of the fact the more fuel you add the longer it takes to burn. Your through in you crank is further out so you are getting a more leverage as well this is a very important fact to.

With higher octane fuel and more boost you can see a lot of combustion pressure carred past 90 degree after top dead center. No way a naturally aspirating engine is going to do that.

This is why you can make crazy power with a turbo day after day.

You know all this already Kelsey

 

[christian]

play with mathces and your gonna get burnt, unless your are real careful...

 

[Boyko]

play with mathces and your gonna get burnt, unless your are real careful...

Hey, I have been playing with turbos for a while now and the power and the reliability still amazes me

 

[RKT]

Boyko..

Great post, but unfortunately, I do not agree.. Those pressure simulators (2 stroke) are far from accurate..

Peak pressure, Ideally, would be at 14 degrees ATDC and having a turbo installed does not effect where you want peak pressure to occur.. You want it at approx 14 due to the leverage angle of the crank being optimum for performing more work. The turbo essentially increases the available F/A mix to combust and, it CAN allow for more pressure (work) done at lower rod angles .. The F/A mix is ignited instantaneously and is not "burning" after combustion.. it is burning, before combustion..not after.

Kelsey

You have to keep in mind that when properly set up a boost does not stress the engine out that much. Your peak clyinder pressure does not get raised that much. The key is to keep the flame front in time with the piston this is were you will find the sweet spot were most power is to be had at the fuels octane level.

Naturally aspirated you will get your peek cylinder pressure at around 10 degrees after top dead center.

Apply some boost and this happens later because of the fact the more fuel you add the longer it takes to burn. Your through in you crank is further out so you are getting a more leverage as well this is a very important fact to.

With higher octane fuel and more boost you can see a lot of combustion pressure carred past 90 degree after top dead center. No way a naturally aspirating engine is going to do that.

This is why you can make crazy power with a turbo day after day.

You know all this already Kelsey

 

[Boyko]

Boyko..

Great post, but unfortunately, I do not agree.. Those pressure simulators (2 stroke) are far from accurate..

Peak pressure, Ideally, would be at 14 degrees ATDC and having a turbo installed does not effect where you want peak pressure to occur.. You want it at approx 14 due to the leverage angle of the crank being optimum for performing more work. The turbo essentially increases the available F/A mix to combust and, it CAN allow for more pressure (work) done at lower rod angles .. The F/A mix is ignited instantaneously and is not "burning" after combustion.. it is burning, before combustion..not after.

Kelsey

The longer duration of the burn in a boosted combustion engine is a proven theory. High end engine shops that have the sophisticated equipment to measure combustion pressure on a dyno have data on it.

Think about it dude, there is no way any stock engine is going to survive if the combustion process happens at the same rate with twice the charge. Look what nitrous can do to a engine when you are just trying to get 40% more power out of it.

I know you have been secretly playing with turbos Kelsey, I think is is time to come out of the closet.

 

[mmsports]

Nope he cemented that door closed

the only thing Kelsey has to do with turbo's is a Head.

I know you have been secretly playing with turbos Kelsey, I think is is time to come out of the closet.

 

[RKT]

The longer duration of the burn in a boosted combustion engine is a proven theory. High end engine shops that have the sophisticated equipment to measure combustion pressure on a dyno have data on it.

Think about it dude, there is no way any stock engine is going to survive if the combustion process happens at the same rate with twice the charge. Look what nitrous can do to a engine when you are just trying to get 40% more power out of it.

I know you have been secretly playing with turbos Kelsey, I think is is time to come out of the closet.

LOL.

Ya know, I was riding a turbo'd sled before ALL but 2 of the Western Turbo shops were even in the turbo business.. OVS, Turbo Doc, and Story were the only guys running turbos back then.. Boondockers was not even in business then.. But, I gave up owning them MANY years ago.

I think you and I are in agreement with all this theory.. I just think that we are experiencing a definition problem....Keep in mind. 2 stroke engine operation is different from 4 stroke operation.. We both know a 4 stroke has a dedicated power stroke.. So.. pressure can build for much longer due to this dedicated stroke.. The 2 stroke does not have this option/luxury..

The combustion event happens at the same time, turbo or non turbo.. this is dictated by the ignition timing and head design.. The combustion event can not combust one portion of the available charge at one point and then combust the remainder later on the stroke. This would be dual combustion and simply does not happen. . It (turbo) WILL combust it and within a few degrees of the N/A engine timing combustion event...

If you pour fuel on the ground and throw a match at it.. It ALL lights at once, or very close to it (micro seconds). .Same with the engine.. the combustion event timing is critical to having optimum rod angle for optimum push on the crank.
Once the rod angle gets extreme, the work produced on the crank train is reduced considerably.. IE.. not much power there....

So, back to the original question.. More power = more push on the rod = more strain on the crank train.. The idea that the turbo power is easier on the crank is, IMO, not very likely..But, hey.. I guess ya never really know..Anything is possible..

Kelsey

 

[RKT]

the only thing Kelsey has to do with turbo's is a Head.

Ahhhh...Kelsey understands turbos more than you would think.. After all, it is not really the turbo system that is creating the power... ALL it is creating is the air environment to allow the ENGINE to produce more power.. The ENGINE is what is making the power.. NOT the turbo.. and, trust me, I know a few things about 2 stroke engines..

I have designed turbo specific heads for the Euopean Speed record holder and he still holds this record as the fastest European Snowmobile..
Worked on a few 1800c+ turbo's engines also...

A few top turbo riders also run turbo specific heads and are featured in the videos you buy..

Again.. rode turbos for a few years before most even ever knew they existed for a 2 stroke.
Garr Peterson, Brad Story and Steve Packer have been riding turbo'd 2strokes since the early 80's

The ENGINE make the power..NOT the turbo.. The Turbo supplies the air for the ENGINE and the ENGINE supplies the power for the turbo..
So, when it all comes down to it..how the turbo kit is designed and how is is assembled does not effect what the ENGINE does with the supplied air..

How much power does that turbo make on its own?---> ZERO..

Port the engine for a turbo and they you REALLY have the real deal!! If the engine can not flow the added air.. it can not make the power without running very high boost (ie M8 turbos and D8 Turbos).
Build the engine for a turbo and then you can run less boost and make MORE power.. been there done that...

 

[Radski30]

First pistions then have the crank checked 2500 is not a ton of miles the the crank feels smooth at 2500 rpm its probably ok The front clutch is key here if you have any wear or wobel then that is the first sign that your crank needs attention most of the 1000 crank problems I have seen have been caused by a bad clutch, The turbo is alot easier on the crank than assperated because of the smooth power and everytime you boost it forces the oil everywhere.
At 2500 miles I would not hesitate to tourbo and ride all season.

I disagree!!! I have ran both, and have ridden with guys that Turbo them and Big Bore Aspirated. I think the thing to look for with a crank, is to look at the crank Seal by the clutch. If the seal leaks, because a belt took it out, then your probably going to loose the crank at some point...Find out what kind of oil has been ran in it...My cousin ran Blue Marble, and took his crank out. Was under warranty (luckily) but when they replaced it, the bearings were very dry and was not lubricated well. Lets just say he won't be running Blue Marble anymore. I know for a fact that My Turbo will be putting a tremendous amount of stress on the crank, bearings, rods, pistons, simply because I am going to try to run 20 to 22 lbs of boost through it.

By the end of the year, I would bet I will have to put another crank in it...or have a custom billet crank made. You won't see any Naturally Aspirated sled put this kind of pressure on a crank. I think anything above 8 lbs of boost is more pressure than most big bores out there.

I also agree with kelsy. Motor work first, then turbo. This is the best way to make the whole system the most efficient.

Product Tester, Can't wait to run that D8T that I saw at the snowmobile show in SLC...It will be fun blowing past you!!!!

 

[turboless terry]

I have ran blue marble in most of my sleds with no problem. I guess, with everything, someone will be fine and someone will have trouble.
I think the biggest trouble with cranks going bad is clutches out of balance or not having the proper maintenance. People run worn out parts in them too long.

 

[product tester]

I was posting personal experiance as I have had many bb sleds and na sleds
I lost a crank every year till I went turbo I have not lost one with a turbo.
RKT when you pull a cyclender off there is a puddle of oil in the bottom thats the oil that gets forced everywhere when you boost thats on top of what is mixed in the fuel. ya you had a turbo along time ago before turbos were cool things have changed, back then you worked on them for 3 days and rode 1 thats why you got rid of it now you install a kit and ride all season. The na sleds have a lot stronger throttle responce witch is hard on the crank (twisting like the 900 mc I twisted my crank hitting the throttle first ride out then everyone was welding them or pining them I dont know anyone that has twisted an m crank I have checked over 20 on turbos that have been running big boost and not one has moved. I have seen problems with running the stock oil injection on the 1000 at 10#s or higher run one that way for 500 miles and look at the bearings and rods if you have pushed the sled hard (long pulls in the powder) there will be lots of heat marks on the rod and bearings this is due to lack of oil under boost (120 to 1).
The biggest problem that the m 1000 has for the crank is belt blowing like radski said cords will take the seal out so If you blow a belt then make sure there are no strings between the clutch and the motor before you continue
blowing belts will also knock the crank out of true. So if you have blown alot of belts have your crank checked before you turbo.