Beacan vs Airbag
- Thread starter george3680
- Start date
If I had to choose only one I would choose a beacon. I would much rather be in a position to at least attempt to save one of my family's lives than just mine.
It's all about priorities, man. Whose life is more important? A bag only gives you the chance to save yourself. A beacon gives you the chance to try and save someone else's life while at the same time giving someone a chance to save yours.
It's all about priorities, man. Whose life is more important? A bag only gives you the chance to save yourself. A beacon gives you the chance to try and save someone else's life while at the same time giving someone a chance to save yours.
Beacon first, then bag.
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boondocker155
Well-known member
Beacon hands down
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SXViper
Well-known member
The group I typically ride with did not have beacons so I opted to go with the bag first as in my situation it offered the best odds of me making it out of a slide. In the following season I got the beacon. The bag has potential to save your life the beacon helps give you better potential to save a stranger or buddies life.
This whole discussion can be boiled down to this:
Buy a bag, protect yourself more.
Buy a beacon, protect yourself and others.
The selfish option is to choose airbag only.
There was a slide up at Stevens Pass 2 years ago. Killed 2 good friends of mine and a third guy I didn't know. They were part of a larger group that had an immense accumulated knowledge of avalanche safety (pro skiers). One of the "I survived" avy bag ads you see is Elyse Saugstad, one of the people in the group. She did have an airbag, the only person who was caught and rode the slide all the way down who had one. She was still buried up to her neck and couldn't even lift her head; she had to be dug out of the set up concrete mess that is avy runout. The point is, if you're thinking an airbag will make it so you just hop up, dust yourself off, grab your sled and ride home, with no need to have any help, you're in the completely wrong mindset to be even setting foot in the western mountains. You're about as smart as the family in the 1849 California gold rush that came over with rakes, because they thought the gold was so plentiful that they could stand at the edge of a creek and rake the gold in.
Finally, the three that died in the slide were found in enough time that had they not been swept 2500 vertical feet through a very steep, rocky and treed drainage, they could have survived. It was clear they died of blunt force trauma, not asphyxiation.
There is no reason to discuss carrying one and not the other. The only discussion to have is whether to have an airbag in addition to a beacon. The answer is always yes, if you can afford the airbag, buy it too. If you're riding with me, and you have only an airbag you're saying "Sorry bro, if you get caught, I'm not doing anything for you".
Buy a bag, protect yourself more.
Buy a beacon, protect yourself and others.
The selfish option is to choose airbag only.
There was a slide up at Stevens Pass 2 years ago. Killed 2 good friends of mine and a third guy I didn't know. They were part of a larger group that had an immense accumulated knowledge of avalanche safety (pro skiers). One of the "I survived" avy bag ads you see is Elyse Saugstad, one of the people in the group. She did have an airbag, the only person who was caught and rode the slide all the way down who had one. She was still buried up to her neck and couldn't even lift her head; she had to be dug out of the set up concrete mess that is avy runout. The point is, if you're thinking an airbag will make it so you just hop up, dust yourself off, grab your sled and ride home, with no need to have any help, you're in the completely wrong mindset to be even setting foot in the western mountains. You're about as smart as the family in the 1849 California gold rush that came over with rakes, because they thought the gold was so plentiful that they could stand at the edge of a creek and rake the gold in.
Finally, the three that died in the slide were found in enough time that had they not been swept 2500 vertical feet through a very steep, rocky and treed drainage, they could have survived. It was clear they died of blunt force trauma, not asphyxiation.
There is no reason to discuss carrying one and not the other. The only discussion to have is whether to have an airbag in addition to a beacon. The answer is always yes, if you can afford the airbag, buy it too. If you're riding with me, and you have only an airbag you're saying "Sorry bro, if you get caught, I'm not doing anything for you".
Kinda sounds like there a a decent amount of guys on here that don't trust their riding partners ability to locate them with beacons. Come on--that's your own fault--teach them, practice with them, spend the time to make sure they can find you. If that doesn't work--get new riding partners.
I rode with my brother and my son for several years. I was very confident in their ability to use their beacon and find me. I know they were confident that I could find them.
My point is--buy the beacon, probe and shovel first and then make sure you and your riding partners know how to use them.
I intend to have an avy pack soon but will never ride without my beacon or anyone that doesn't have one.
BigT
I rode with my brother and my son for several years. I was very confident in their ability to use their beacon and find me. I know they were confident that I could find them.
My point is--buy the beacon, probe and shovel first and then make sure you and your riding partners know how to use them.
I intend to have an avy pack soon but will never ride without my beacon or anyone that doesn't have one.
BigT
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rmscustom
Well-known member
I'm shocked by a few of these responses but I don't know why cause I've seen a lot of stupid things including.
No beacon, no pack, no tools
Beacon and no tools.
A shovel only to dig the sled out. Cause that's what a shovels for, right?
A $25000 turboed sled and a 15 year old analog beacon with NO clue how to use it and to upgrade it was too much money
People that thought when they turned their beacon to search the local SAR came for them.
Not gonna wear my pack and beacon because were probably not gonna get into avy territory today guy.
Beacon in a pack attached to the sled.
But I've never seen anybody ignorant and selfish enough to be wearing an airbag with no beacon.
No beacon, no pack, no tools
Beacon and no tools.
A shovel only to dig the sled out. Cause that's what a shovels for, right?
A $25000 turboed sled and a 15 year old analog beacon with NO clue how to use it and to upgrade it was too much money
People that thought when they turned their beacon to search the local SAR came for them.
Not gonna wear my pack and beacon because were probably not gonna get into avy territory today guy.
Beacon in a pack attached to the sled.
But I've never seen anybody ignorant and selfish enough to be wearing an airbag with no beacon.
If I were in this situation, I would find a new group to ride with.
There is absolutely no question on this one. If you were to ask any snow safety expert / forecaster it would be unanimous. Beacon, shovel, and probes. Period.
The avy pack is great and definitely saves lives but it is very one sided and has it's flaws. Including failure and failure to deploy. It should only be considered as an additional accessory to your beacon, shovel and probes. I think it is great to arm yourself with as many life saving tools as possible, but just an avy pack is incredibly stupid.
Lastly the best advice is to simply know the snow conditions and snowpack in the area you are riding and don't put yourself on a slope that might come down on you. The scariest thing about avy's is that even when it is considered "safe" to climb, avalanches are never 100% predictable. Most avalanche fatalities happen when the forecast is in the moderate category!
The best avy equipment and the one most often left in the truck is your brain. Use it.
I have a friend who I have rode with who triggered an avy on a hill we all felt could slide. I chose not to play on the hill. The next year this same friend was caught and partially buried in another avalanche. I simply have no desire to ride with him and his group anymore. I don't want to have to dig out a friends body.
Make good decisions and you can avoid most potential problems. But always be prepared for the worst by arming yourself with the best equipment and most importantly the knowledge of how to use it.
I bought a beacon so I could have practice time with it and practice with my buddies before we show up to the mountain. This way I know how to use the model I own vs. one I just rented for a week. I am also renting an avy pack from www.oerentals.com for the 1st time this year. I don't have the spare change to buy an avy pack for the 5 days a year I get to ride in the mountains, so renting is a great option for me. Some guys rented from this place last year and said it was suprisingly easy and efficient to do. This year we did a group order and got 20% off the whole deal...
So to answer your question, I'd buy a beacon and rent an avy pack.
So to answer your question, I'd buy a beacon and rent an avy pack.
I would like to see un-reputable numbers of the survival rate of the two devices. I know the bags are in the high 90's and most of the deaths with them are related to trauma that kills you instantly with 0 chances of survival. So lets look at survival rating with trauma deaths removed from both bag and beacon charts. That way we are comparing only events in which the tools were useful in survival. I am pretty sure the bags would win in this comparison and it is the only valid comparison. I personally want both but that is not the question here. And truly neither is money.. The op stated you only get one, whether it be money or by choice, the option is still the same.... From a purely scientific approach, I think we would all be crazy to choose the beacon by itself. I know you all are going to claim I am stupid and that we have been using beacons to save lives for years. People use to say kids were just fine in seatbelts instead of car seats too. We are stuck on how we have always done things. Look at the older guys riding styles even when they have a brand new sled. How many are still grabbing the mountain bar and putting lefty throttles on their 2014's just cuz they always have. The numbers and research show that those two items are statistically less effective than the proper riding style.. but I digress as I am slipping off topic. All I am saying is lets look at the numbers cuz they don't lie.
Rant over...
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Rant over...
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rmscustom
Well-known member
Lets say I'm in a avalanche, I trigger my airbag, go with the flow until it stops and I'm partially buried or on top and I'm fine.
Now lets take the exact scenario but I don't have a airbag, I go with the flow until it stops and I'm partially buried or on top and I'm fine.
So in the first scenario does that count as the airbag saved my life and I'm one of the 90% that survive with an airbag?
Surviving 90% of avalanches with a bag is a false sense of security if you'd survive 80% without it.
No doubt a bag will increase your chances and I wear one but by how much is the question, not how many survive with a bag.
Now lets take the exact scenario but I don't have a airbag, I go with the flow until it stops and I'm partially buried or on top and I'm fine.
So in the first scenario does that count as the airbag saved my life and I'm one of the 90% that survive with an airbag?
Surviving 90% of avalanches with a bag is a false sense of security if you'd survive 80% without it.
No doubt a bag will increase your chances and I wear one but by how much is the question, not how many survive with a bag.
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Your scenario bumps the percentage of both units. Either you are on top or you aren't. If you are on top with beacon, we call that a save with beacon. If you are on top with air bag, we call that a save with air bag. Statistics show that you will self recover exponentially with air bag versus beacon. We can't quantify mother nature's role so on top is on top. It evens the statistics. Statistics show that airbags save lives more consistently than beacons. What percent of beacon users die cuz they are not found soon enough? Now compare that to percent of bag users whom die because they are not found soon enough. Most bag users are found on the surface or shallow enough to have arms, feet etc sticking out of snow. There are just to many cases of bag users being on surface or self recoverable compared to beacon users to say that they just got lucky and would have been unburied no matter what. I would like to know the spread between bag, beacon and nothing survival rates. My guess is the "nothing" group is down around the 10 percent mark but again I only have data on bag survival so I am just making a guess. I know your odds are astronomicaly better with either beacon or bag compared to nothing just don't have statistical data in front of me. Thanks for the calm debate on this subject. I am purely playing the statistical devil's advocate on this topic because I think it is an interesting subject and find it fascinating how we all view things from different perspectives.
Aaron
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Aaron
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rmscustom
Well-known member
Can you (or anybody) post a link or anything to back up any of these statistics?
I'm not trying to pick a fight but I'm genuinely interested in what the facts really are.
I'd like to see a sample of a certain amount of avys where the person involved had a bag vs the same # without. Stuff like walked away by themselves, partially buried, completely buried but rescued, death by trauma and death by affixation.
I'm not trying to pick a fight but I'm genuinely interested in what the facts really are.
I'd like to see a sample of a certain amount of avys where the person involved had a bag vs the same # without. Stuff like walked away by themselves, partially buried, completely buried but rescued, death by trauma and death by affixation.
That is the problem. I don't know where to get any of the info for non bag incidents. The swiss have lots of data on bag related incidents and that is all I have seen much of. I know I read a report from snowpulse that covered a ten year span that had apx 97% survival rate and the other 3 percent were either trauma deaths, failures to deploy or were caught at the tow and never had a chance to "flow" in the avy so were buried so deep that they were un-rescueable in a survivable amount of time. If I remember correctly, of the 97%, something crazy like 99% were able to self rescue too. This is all from recollection so I may be off some on exact numbers. I am with you on the data. I would love to see concrete evidence either way. I will have to do some research on that subject so we get a true view of the numbers. Like I said, I am mainly playing devils advocate due to the fact the data is not in front of us. I will see what I can scrounge up and see if I get to eat a lot of crow.. 
Aaron
Aaron
Yes, but have we stopped putting webbing restraints on them while they are in a car seat? Then your comparison proves the other side of the argument. The airbag is great. When used in addition to a beacon.
Here's a fair point for everybody to think about: how would you ride on a day with considerable avy danger if you and you group didn't have ANY avy equipment? No airbag, no beacon, no shovel, no probe. Meaning, if you get caught in a big slide, your odds of survival are much lower. Very near zero if you are buried when it stops. Guarantee you would ride differently than you do now on a considerable day, (Unless you're in the avy ignorant category) but you may not be able to be honest enough with yourself to admit or see it. Look at how the Canadians fight wildfires; they don't carry fire shelters. They kill way fewer firefighters per acre burned than Americans. They know that if they stay in a bad situation too long, they will die. Americans think their shelter will save them.
Good point. I should not have used an example of a car seat as it incorporates the former. I did find research that has statistics for both beacon and bag survival rates. I will work on a post tomorrow. I havent read through it in detail yet. Has a ton of info though. Will get a link up also.
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I knew I had read something that discussed this.
http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-avalanche-airbag-effectiveness-something-closer-truth
The "prominent avalanche professional" in that article has a lot of people who disagree with his theory. While 97% may not be a proper number if you're comparing the two, his 3% figure is STRONGLY debated. I've talked to Dale and disagreed with him, as does Mike Duffy, and a number of others.
Obviously there are a number of factors; Will the bag being pulled allow you the control to avoid trauma that would have otherwise caused harm... not even necessarily death?
My slide MIGHT not have killed me... but not going over the cliff GUARANTEED saved me serious hospital time, and I can say the bag is the only reason for that.
I know of others that have been able to swim & avoid trauma as well... would it have killed them?? Not sure, but being on top is the only real chance at that level of control.
My main point being that LIFE/DEATH isn't the only metric worth considering. I've got great life insurance... but not great health insurance.
Dying would have been better than months in the hospital for my family's sake.
I missed this by about 35' because I swam to a bush... My sled went off & took 3 days to get out. We couldn't even find it the day of the slide.
Whether we want to use 3% or 97%... the reality is, they work.
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