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Backcountry United: An Open letter to the Snowmobile Industry.

I live in the suburbs of Los Angeles.

I cant even park my sleds around my house because people complain. So I park them near the closest forest with groomed trails … about 180 miles.

Most city folk here are anti everything if they are not directly "enhanced" by it happening.

Its not in my back yard and they throw money at any "worthy" cause to promote their lifestyle.

With that said they want snowmobiling gone

MUfflers one of many excuses. I used to ride in LOS ANGELES county in the San Gabriel forest. People complained about trenches from sleds … looks like a trail and people got lost walking in the path of a sled. So they "prohibited" sleds from the area.

Nevermind cities literally moved mountains, entire rivers end up diverted to the city and every natural resource are mined elsewhere to have a metropolitan lifestyle. Many cities are built on great land or key junctions.

Near Hollywood (aka HOLLYWEIRD by locals) they even have oil fields inside of buildings and DONT shut them down because it makes money for the city. Even at Beverly Hills High School but the City banned all oil production in the city a few years back 2016. https://patch.com/california/beverlyhills/council-places-permanent-ban-on-oil-drilling

And they will dump endless money to keep the city going and more to get a "better" city. Look at the California high speed rail !!!

At the Los Angeles airport and oil fields in Bakersfield there are one of a kind endangered species of reptile. No restrictions at LAX BUT restrictions at the oil fields.

A Sierra Club board member is the next door neighbor to a friend of mine. We had sleds in his driveway and he screamed at us bout killing the earth, This Sierra Club guy had no problem getting a crew with a Bobcat to rip up his yard to have it replanted. Goes on trips all over the world to see the last remaining wilderness and report to membership they need more money because he has seen first hand the destruction of the worlds natural wonders. All by plane , train , boat and automobile.

So I tell them of a couple benefits we do for the cities.


OSV ( over snow vehicle) fees pay for forest conservation . plant trees , maintain roads, cabins and pay for law enforcement.

Snowmobiles pack down snow and it takes longer to melt …. extending the snow melt going to the city.

Snowmobiling trains people for search and rescue for hikers and skiers.

Many ski resorts in California use OSV money to pay for cross country skiing. Plus use OSV money to gain access and parking lots to the snow.
 
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At the end of the day, you will find that trying to negotiate and compromise with these people is a complete waste of time. They are willing to lie cheat and steal to get what they want. Their arguments against our sport have been invalidated time and again.


I was at a USFS/BLM meeting one evening where a woman first was screaming about how loud sleds were. Minutes later she was relating a story about how sleds snuck up on her and almost ran her down. So which is it? Are they too loud or too quiet? That really wasn't the issue. It was that they were in an area she considered hers and didn't want to share it.


They tried for over a decade to prove sleds were poisoning a pond in the mtns right outside the door of a sled rental outfit and snowmobile trailhead. No matter how many times they tested the water in this high use area, they have never found pollution from sleds.


They are full of false arguments. You can not reason with them, they do not want to be reasonable, it is that simple.


I have at least a hundred more short stories like this from my time fighting for our rights... I will keep dropping them in as the thread progresses to help really demonstrate who we are up against.
 
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christopher said:
I would be happy to offer him a free premium account.
But given your generally "Hostile" attitude towards compromise in any Way, Shape or Form, I am not sure he would find much of a welcome friendly debate.??
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Mostly, I think he needs further education on the subject. I would love to see his enthusiasm re-directed into efforts that may get us somewhere rather than towards the failed attempts of the past that have been proven not to be effective.


Like I keep saying, the things on his list are not new ideas. They are the low hanging fruit of the problem and will unfortunately not be productive towards his stated goals.
 
Big10inch said:
At the end of the day, you will find that trying to negotiate and compromise with these people is a complete waste of time. They are willing to lie cheat and steal to get what they want. Their arguments against our sport have been invalidated time and again.


I was at a USFS/BLM meeting one evening where a woman first was screaming about how loud sleds were. Minutes later she was relating a story about how sleds snuck up on her and almost ran her down. So which is it? Are they too loud or too quiet? That really wasn't the issue. It was that they were in an area she considered hers and didn't want to share it.


They tried for over a decade to prove sleds were poisoning a pond in the mtns right outside the door of a sled rental outfit and snowmobile trailhead. No matter how many times they tested the water in this high use area, they have never found pollution from sleds.


They are full of false arguments. You can not reason with them, they do not want to be reasonable, it is that simple.


I have at least a hundred more short stories like this from my time fighting for our rights... I will keep dropping them in as the thread progresses to help really demonstrate who we are up against.
Click to expand...

I remember a time when advocates to stop snowmobiling took a picture of tracks in an out of bounds riding area and used as a basis for more restrictions. Come to find out these exact tracks were created by law enforcement looking for tracks of unauthorized riding. Law enforcement drove out of bounds because of complaints (by the same people taking law enforcements out of bound tracks pictures) stating they saw sleds riding out of bounds.

The only tracks found were law enforcement riding out of bounds.

Many times scientific proof of sleds harming the environment are not required to close an area. One complaint has been enough. The mere accusation of one person is enough to shut down areas. One , ten or 10,000 sledders can ask for an area open for riding. It takes a fraction of violations and or complaints to close it.
 
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donbrown said:
I remember a time when advocates to stop snowmobiling took a picture of tracks in an out of bounds riding area and used as a basis for more restrictions. Come to find out these exact tracks were created by law enforcement looking for tracks of unauthorized riding. Law enforcement drove out of bounds because of complaints (by the same people taking law enforcements out of bound tracks pictures) stating they saw sleds riding out of bounds.

The only tracks found were law enforcement riding out of bounds.

Many times scientific proof of sleds harming the environment are not required to close an area. One complaint has been enough. The mere accusation is enough to shut down areas. One , ten or 10,000 sledders can ask for an area open for riding. It takes a fraction of violations and or complaints to close it.
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One of my favorite arguements is the damage done under the snow... virtually non existent. But their hiking trails and skis areas are great. Do they think they are natural?

More damage has been done to the land in a 1/4 mile worth of hiking trail than is done is all of the western states over the course of 10 years
 
donbrown said:
I remember a time when advocates to stop snowmobiling took a picture of tracks in an out of bounds riding area and used as a basis for more restrictions. Come to find out these exact tracks were created by law enforcement looking for tracks of unauthorized riding. Law enforcement drove out of bounds because of complaints (by the same people taking law enforcements out of bound tracks pictures) stating they saw sleds riding out of bounds.

The only tracks found were law enforcement riding out of bounds.

Many times scientific proof of sleds harming the environment are not required to close an area. One complaint has been enough. The mere accusation is enough to shut down areas. One , ten or 10,000 sledders can ask for an area open for riding. It takes a fraction of violations and or complaints to close it.
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GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT?
 
donbrown said:
Park your sled at most any ski resort in California and I would be surprised if it wasn't vandalized. You'll see hostile.
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I've done this probably a hundred times. Ski in the morning then leave to go sledding in the afternoon. Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone who skis is an entitled douchebag who has strong opinions on sledding. Most of the ones at ski areas are indifferent. And yes there's even a good percentage of them who ask me about getting one when they see ski racks on the back of mine.

It's not "skiers" as a whole population trying to end sledding. It's not even on the radar of the average resort skier. It's a relatively small number of very smug entitled people who think they know what's best for everyone.

No my sled has never been vandalized. Half the serious backcountry skiers around here ride sleds for cryin out loud.

Know your enemy. Just because they call themselves skiers doesn't mean they represent ALL skiers. I ski more than most of the people in these groups and they sure as shlt don't represent me.
 
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Big10inch said:
I was at a USFS/BLM meeting one evening where a woman first was screaming about how loud sleds were. Minutes later she was relating a story about how sleds snuck up on her and almost ran her down. So which is it? Are they too loud or too quiet? That really wasn't the issue. It was that they were in an area she considered hers and didn't want to share it.
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Haha, yep. Love that one. You want my sled to be completely silent? Then BOO!

And you're right, trying to compromise with the people active in trying to get lands closed is a waste of time. I refuse to sit down with any one of them. But sometimes reasonable people ski. And sometimes they are powerful advocates for keeping places open because they're not bat**** crazy ideologues.
 
For sure. Mtnhorse had a point then and John has a point now.

Will it change the minds of the congregation in the church of Wilderness? No. Of course not. We don't belong in their world no matter what we ride.

Will not running loud ass exhaust maybe help not make converts of people in the middle? People who might still side with winter wildlands because 'well, snowmobiles are kind of loud'

It's not the extreme people you're going to appease. It's the ones in the middle who you don't want to make sympathizers out of. THAT is the argument, not changing the minds of the freakin Wilderness Society. The point is to not make it easy for people to SIDE with the Wilderness Society.

That's the difference.
 
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kidwoo said:
For sure. Mtnhorse had a point then and John has a point now.

Will it change the minds of the congregation in the church of Wilderness? No. Of course not. We don't belong in their world no matter what we ride.

Will not running loud ass exhaust maybe help not make converts of people in the middle? People who might still side with winter wildlands because 'well, snowmobiles are kind of loud'

It's not the extreme people you're going to appease. It's the ones in the middle who you don't want to make sympathizers out of. THAT is the argument, not changing the minds of the freakin Wilderness Society. The point is to not make it easy for people to SIDE with the Wilderness Society.

That's the difference.
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There really is no difference. We are still losing our rights using this tact as well. We are seriously underfunded and poorly organized.


How does the smaller group make a statement? You have to make a really BIG spectacle of yourselves. Anything less IMOis the same waste of time and energy we have been following unsuccessfully for over 20 years.


Show me what has actually worked... NONE of what has been suggested and tried thus far has even made a dent in the oppositions quest to lock us out.
 
donbrown said:
I remember a time when advocates to stop snowmobiling took a picture of tracks in an out of bounds riding area and used as a basis for more restrictions. Come to find out these exact tracks were created by law enforcement looking for tracks of unauthorized riding. Law enforcement drove out of bounds because of complaints (by the same people taking law enforcements out of bound tracks pictures) stating they saw sleds riding out of bounds.

The only tracks found were law enforcement riding out of bounds.

Many times scientific proof of sleds harming the environment are not required to close an area. One complaint has been enough. The mere accusation of one person is enough to shut down areas. One , ten or 10,000 sledders can ask for an area open for riding. It takes a fraction of violations and or complaints to close it.
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When things like this happen they need to be vehemently and publicly protested. Instead we just keep taking it from behind...
 
kidwoo said:
I've done this probably a hundred times. Ski in the morning then leave to go sledding in the afternoon. Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone who skis is an entitled douchebag who has strong opinions on sledding. Most of the ones at ski areas are indifferent. And yes there's even a good percentage of them who ask me about getting one when they see ski racks on the back of mine.

It's not "skiers" as a whole population trying to end sledding. It's not even on the radar of the average resort skier. It's a relatively small number of very smug entitled people who think they know what's best for everyone.

No my sled has never been vandalized. Half the serious backcountry skiers around here ride sleds for cryin out loud.

Know your enemy. Just because they call themselves skiers doesn't mean they represent ALL skiers. I ski more than most of the people in these groups and they sure as shlt don't represent me.
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Where I live it is the back country skiers that are in competition with us for use of the public lands. It isn't the ski area skiers, it is the smug entitled group but they are by and large "skiers".


We have had ski poles thrust in the face of young riders, been cussed at up close and across the valley. Then the USFS thugs want to put the beat down on us but don't give "them" a second look. They feel empowered due to this inequity and they play upon it.
 
Where you live is not unique. It's backcountry skier groups everywhere that are a part of this. I'm just saying it's not ALL backcountry skiers because it isn't. Trust me, I'm about the farthest thing from an appeaser you can imagine when it comes to those groups. Yes, there is a difference. Ignore it and keep losing lands. I understand everyone's frustration, it's mine too. But you need to be standing on a foundation of rock solid facts to throw effective punches.

You're also far from the only person to have a pole swung at their head. That seems like another universal as well. :face-icon-small-ton


What has worked?

Bringing facts to the table. Pointing out the flaws and abundant mis-citations of all the research so often cited regarding water quality, plant and animal habitat, lists of all the non-motorized trailheads in an area to prove that there's no lack of 'quiet recreation', documentation of lies or outright ignorance some of these groups present..... It's not that hard it just takes time. Does it work every time? No. But it certainly strengthens your case more than "all backcountry skiers suck y'all!!" when you actually come across a land manager who's not a complete fool.

I've never ridden a single spot in the country where there's not someone with a loud ass can I come across. So no, 'we' haven't tried that. Not in any sort of substantial way. Just quit willingly giving them ammo. That's all. All it does is make this uphill battle that much steeper. Take away their tools one by one. It's not a difficult concept. And no it hasn't been tried. A dozen people griping on the internet about loud cans doesn't do squat.

Like it or not, you've got OSV travel management coming your way sooner or later. You should get in touch with me via PMs. I'd like to help. I agree we're far too unorganized at a national level. We should change that.
 
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kidwoo said:
Where you live is not unique. It's backcountry skier groups everywhere that are a part of this. I'm just saying it's not ALL backcountry skiers because it isn't. Trust me, I'm about the farthest thing from an appeaser you can imagine when it comes to those groups. Yes, there is a difference. Ignore it and keep losing lands. I understand everyone's frustration, it's mine too. But you need to be standing on a foundation of rock solid facts to throw effective punches.

You're also far from the only person to have a pole swung at their head. That seems like another universal as well. :face-icon-small-ton


What has worked?

Bringing facts to the table. Pointing out the flaws and abundant mis-citations of all the research so often cited regarding water quality, plant and animal habitat, lists of all the non-motorized trailheads in an area to prove that there's no lack of 'quiet recreation', documentation of lies or outright ignorance some of these groups present..... It's not that hard it just takes time. Does it work every time? No. But it certainly strengthens your case more than "all backcountry skiers suck y'all!!" when you actually come across a land manager who's not a complete fool.

I've never ridden a single spot in the country where there's not someone with a loud ass can I come across. So no, 'we' haven't tried that. Not in any sort of substantial way. Just quit willingly giving them ammo. That's all. All it does is make this uphill battle that much steeper. Take away their tools one by one. It's not a difficult concept. And no it hasn't been tried. A dozen people griping on the internet about loud cans doesn't do squat.

Like it or not, you've got OSV travel management coming your way sooner or later. You should get in touch with me via PMs. I'd like to help. I agree we're far too unorganized at a national level. We should change that.
Click to expand...


YES, the loud can thing HAS been addressed. I already stated that over ten years ago CSA supported a bill to limit loud sleds AND supported a bill that allowed increased enforcement of the first law. So it is already illegal to run a can louder than the limit. If you think everybody is going to obey the law, you just might be crazy. NOBODY obeys every law, everybody makes their own choices.


I think it is fine to encourage each other but I think it is a total cop out to say that is what is losing us land. In fact I beat that dumb argument in my last land management plan revision. Seems the highway goes right through the riding area and the trucks coming up and down the mountain were a bigger noise issue than the sleds, I was able to PROVE this to the USFS/BLM in this particular area.


You will NEVER be able to remove their arguments, never. They will find an "endangered species" to fight you with and win at the end of the day, ask a logger...


We need to be FAR more aggressive. You are unfortunately still mired in what doesn't work. You end up helping them by dividing our own ranks with dumb arguments like your can is too loud. Sledding is all about freedom. Suggesting that the way to win is to further limit our freedoms is backwards.


Using the FACTS is a great way to go, it helped me. You will never be lily white in their eyes and I think it is a waste of time and energy to try and be that. It is just another win for the opposition. Stop giving them that much power. Do you really think you can beat them by playing it clean? They don't even bother pretending, dirty is the way to win. Maybe it is time we take a page from the winning teams play book and fight back? Problem is, this is too risky for most, so here we sit, losing time and again.


List me those wins using your ideas. Not mitigated losses but wins because there is a HUGE difference.


I have done my time in the trenches. Nobody truly cared enough to even really help last time I gave of my time and resources. Besides, you are still proposing to fight a losing battle. When you are ready to stage a massive snowmobile protest on closed lands, let me know. Anything less is a waste of my time.
 
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Have fun painting me as the enemy and twisting what I say into something you can attack on the internet. Did I ever say addressing loud cans ALONE will change things? Actually I said something quite different.

You have no idea. If you can get past your bitterness look me up. I'm a good ally.
 
The mere fact alone that loud cans do ZERO to keep riding areas open should alone and in and of itself be enough to convince you not to run one. It *CLEARLY* is not helping anything.

Really, what has your loud can done to help keep riding areas open? Nothing. And it hasn't done jack **** for you as far as real world ridability gains either, and you're a f-ing moron if you think it has.

Stop justifying stupidity in the name of "freedom".
 
Dogmeat said:
The mere fact alone that loud cans do ZERO to keep riding areas open should alone and in and of itself be enough to convince you not to run one. It *CLEARLY* is not helping anything.

Really, what has your loud can done to help keep riding areas open? Nothing. And it hasn't done jack **** for you as far as real world ridability gains either, and you're a f-ing moron if you think it has.

Stop justifying stupidity in the name of "freedom".
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So now you automatically assume I run a loud can? Where did I say that?


Loud cans are CLEARLY NOT THE REAL ISSUE. Focusing your efforts on them is what is STUPID. Do you want to win land back or do you want to waste time beating each other up over a NON ISSUE. If you think it is an issue, you have bought into the oppositions argument and LOST....AGAIN.


We should be free to be stupid. Everybody has a different definition of what is stupid. Sorry if you don't like it, maybe you should move to a place where the govt has more control over your life and choices. Maybe that would make you more comfortable.


Truth is, up until last April I had been riding sleds with stock cans since 2005. I crashed my new sled, the stock can was damaged and stupid expensive to replace so I went for an aftermarket one from SSI. I have 4 rides on it and I hate it. I will be switching it to something quieter before the season starts. Not because of land use issues but because I still have the freedom to choose for myself despite the ridiculous brow beating from my fellow sledders.
 
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