Avy packs failed!
- Thread starter RYB
- Start date
I took an avy class a couple weeks ago and from what I learned this stament is totaly incorrect. rocks are often the weak point where the fracture begins is what we were taught and shown several exapmles.
Either way if 5 people where caught in the same slide BIG mistakes were made.
R.I.P to all and condolences to the families
B
BackCountryBob
Well-known member
Why?--the bag makes them invincible
Rocks are islands of death, instant trigger point when you run over one and instant trauma when your body slams into one.BCB
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If you're getting this as an absolute "rocks are never an island of safety" you either had a VERY poor instructor, or you just missed ONE of the purposes of a rock outcropping on a hill. You have to weight the size of the outcropping against the amount of snow above it, and the likelihood of the slope sliding, what kind of "prow" (wrong word, but it gives the idea of what I mean) the rock has, as in, would the show go over it, or around it if it slid.
The rocks in the center... poor example, the rock in the upper left corner... good example. There's more than a simple "bad/ good" when it comes to terrain, you have to analyse each individual aspect for how they will work FOR or AGAINST you. There's a few places we ride where I do a cut, then duck under a rock, and some places where I avoid them... depends on the aspect.
Also, how you look at a slope as a sledder as compared to as a skier... TOTALLY different.
Btw... people are getting killed in multiples, bags or not... if you people want to be ignorant about one more way to REDUCE the risks... go for it, that's your deal, but it's a fool's paradise that you're living in. You want to ride without any avy gear... maybe you should avoid classes too, statistics show that educated people are on the rise in deaths, probably best to avoid that huh?
I'm so sick of the moronic comments about avy bags.
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Why?--the bag makes them invincible
BCB
Wow bob... I think this is the most ignorant post I've seen in the avy section in quite some time... well done.
Hope this helps
B
BackCountryBob
Well-known member
Which part is ignorant? That rocks are islands of death? OR That hitting rocks is instant trauma? The small looking rocks have large heated structures under the surface=weak break- away points.
Something ripped the bags open and more than likely the victims died of trauma at the same time. A bag should keep you above the surface but have no way to prevent you from hitting rocks, trees or sleds.
I have been riding a long time and have witnessed guys going into terrain traps on "high" warning days because they had avy packs complete with beacons and probs-in their minds they were AOK but in reality they were just plain lucky that day.
BCB
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Stating that rocks are automatically "islands of death"... wow... A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
Stating that people go do risky behaviors JUST because they've got an avy pack... the same can be said for a beacon, or taking a class, or having a sled that's not a 1972 trail fire...
In THIS situation, the rocks appear to likely have been just under the surface or close, and creating trigger points, yes. Making obnoxious generalizations that you feel apply to EVERY situation though helps nobody & serves no purpose. Some people on here really DON'T know what islands of safety are... if you can't or don't want to explain it, don't muddy the water with BS.
Help people learn rather than spewing your particular opinion about how the proper gear automatically turns a logical person into a stark raving lunatic guaranteed to suddenly have a death wish, relying on pure luck to stay alive...
oh, and YES... I agree 100%, hitting rocks is something you want to avoid... glad we had that talk.
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agreed, with people buried under 25 feet of snow. that was one B A avalanche
B
BackCountryBob
Well-known member
Stating that rocks are automatically "islands of death"... wow... A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
Stating that people go do risky behaviors JUST because they've got an avy pack... the same can be said for a beacon, or taking a class, or having a sled that's not a 1972 trail fire...
In THIS situation, the rocks appear to likely have been just under the surface or close, and creating trigger points, yes. Making obnoxious generalizations that you feel apply to EVERY situation though helps nobody & serves no purpose. Some people on here really DON'T know what islands of safety are... if you can't or don't want to explain it, don't muddy the water with BS.
Help people learn rather than spewing your particular opinion about how the proper gear automatically turns a logical person into a stark raving lunatic guaranteed to suddenly have a death wish, relying on pure luck to stay alive...
oh, and YES... I agree 100%, hitting rocks is something you want to avoid... glad we had that talk.
WOW, take a breath
My island of safety would be sitting on my turbo'd 1972 trail fire Artic Cat as far away from the "deadly mountain" as possible.
BCB
well I did say that rocks are "often" the weak point where fractures start.Not always.
Snoww1( mike duffy ) was the instuctor .I would say he is qualified .This was my first class and a bacic one at that so you are right that I may have missed or misinturpted. The point is that rocks are often thought to be an ancor for the snow when thats not the case as I understand it.
from what I learned the rocks on the upper left would be a bit safer place if for no other reason they are more towards the windward side of the slope rather than the leeward side( center to right side) under the cornice. in that case my guess is its more about the snowpack than the rocks. would you say that is correct ?
Yeah... that duffy guy MIGHT be qualified
My only point (to both your comments & those from BCB) was that "always" just isn't the case. If you want to get stronger at terrain eval, looking at every aspect, every rock & taking it in on it's own merits is the only way to go. Some rocks are triggers, some are shields... it depends on the aspect.
BCB... my frustration with you is simply that you think that someone with a pack automatically changes their riding habits for the worse, the same premise held by 550IQ... I simply feel it's a poor, ignorant opinion that causes more harm than good. If you want to hang out in the meadows... that's fine, but I live in the mountains, and riding those mountains is what I and most others on here do.
We do what we can, from education, to gear, to changing riding habits, to mitigate the danger that is inherent in riding in the mountains, but that danger is always there to some extent or another... we just keep it as low as possible, and the bag is simply one more tool allowing us to reduce danger.
If these people thought that a bag was going to be the one thing that saved them on that mountain... they needed an upgrade for the equipment upstairs, because it's pretty simple to look at the size & character of this aspect & see that the likelihood of surviving a slide is pretty low depending on your location on the mountain.
S
snowww1
Well-known member
Wow, this post is getting nasty! If we had 3' of fresh powder, people would be in a much better mood.
We definitely need more info on this avalanche, but much can be learned from what we do know.
-Airbags are not a guarantee to survive an avalanche. It is your best chance of surviving an avalanche if deployed, but some avalanches just aren't survivable.
-I'm wondering if secondary avalanches had something to do with the deep burials.
-Rocks are often a trigger point depending on the snowpack. Rocks can also be an island of safety depending on the size of the rock, volume of snow above and whether the rock is acting as a support in the snowpack. Usually they need to be rather large outcroppings.
-The human factor is responsible for over 80% of the avalanche fatalities. This is the part of the story we don't know much about.
-Unfortunately, some basic rules of being in avalanche terrain were broken. Instead of one person being caught, many were caught.
It's good to see accidents being discussed, as we can all learn something.
Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
We definitely need more info on this avalanche, but much can be learned from what we do know.
-Airbags are not a guarantee to survive an avalanche. It is your best chance of surviving an avalanche if deployed, but some avalanches just aren't survivable.
-I'm wondering if secondary avalanches had something to do with the deep burials.
-Rocks are often a trigger point depending on the snowpack. Rocks can also be an island of safety depending on the size of the rock, volume of snow above and whether the rock is acting as a support in the snowpack. Usually they need to be rather large outcroppings.
-The human factor is responsible for over 80% of the avalanche fatalities. This is the part of the story we don't know much about.
-Unfortunately, some basic rules of being in avalanche terrain were broken. Instead of one person being caught, many were caught.
It's good to see accidents being discussed, as we can all learn something.
Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
5
550iq
Well-known member
Avy bags did not fail these good folks. They failed themselves by thinking that all their gear, all their training, all their feelings, all their desire would allow them to use the mountain for personnal feel good vibes by doing what they wanted, when they wanted to do it. Their quest for "the experiance" however blinded them as to the mountain's true intention, and that was to use them to stabilize the snow pack. And so their story could be told, the mountain allowed for a survivor.
I do not know how to stop folks from dying in avalanches. I have witnessed the death, searched for the bodies, saw the faces and in return, spoke the word, pounded the drums, gave the money, helped with the training all to no avail. Even preaching the spector of death doesn't cut it (only makes folks testy). So people kept dying and after 3 years, I gave up and let them. Then the advent of the Avy Bag.....and the good folks keep dying.
Either practice total abstinence or throw the dice (your only options) and if you do throw the dice, these stories will go on and on. I am growing comfortably numb on the subject.
I do not know how to stop folks from dying in avalanches. I have witnessed the death, searched for the bodies, saw the faces and in return, spoke the word, pounded the drums, gave the money, helped with the training all to no avail. Even preaching the spector of death doesn't cut it (only makes folks testy). So people kept dying and after 3 years, I gave up and let them. Then the advent of the Avy Bag.....and the good folks keep dying.
Either practice total abstinence or throw the dice (your only options) and if you do throw the dice, these stories will go on and on. I am growing comfortably numb on the subject.
K
knaffie
Member
Thank you for taking the time to do that, and for everyone else's explanations too.
Photographer: SOLUM, STIAN LYSBERG
Copyright/Source: AFP/Getty Images
Police and military helicopters have been sent to Mt Sorbmegaisa near Tromsoe on Norway’s Arctic coast on Monday, with rescue workers also using dogs in their search.
Publish Date:
2012:03:19 14:29
============
Avalanche kills 5 foreign tourists in Norway
By JULIA GRONNEVET, Associated Press – Mar 19, 2012
OSLO, Norway (AP) — Five people were killed and one person was dug out alive after Swiss and French skiers were buried by an avalanche Monday on Norway's Arctic fringe.
Rescuers located the victims through beacons from their radio transceivers, but only the first person they found survived, a Swiss man who was taken to a local hospital in stable condition.
A 1-kilometer (3,000-foot) wall of snow came crashing down on the skiers on Sorbmegaisa mountain, 65 kilometers (40 miles) east of the northern city of Tromsoe, police spokesman Morten Pettersen said. The last victim was found buried under 6 meters (20 feet) of snow.
Four Swiss and one French skier died in the avalanche, which started at a height of 1,100 meters (3,600 feet) and was 600 meters (2,000 feet) long.
Swiss Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jenny Piaget confirmed that four Swiss citizens had been killed and one injured. They were not named. A Swiss embassy official from Stockholm was dispatched to support the survivors.
The victims were part of 12 people out skiing when the avalanche struck about 2:30 p.m. One of the six who escaped called to alert authorities, and dozens of volunteers were dispatched to the site along with police and military helicopters.
Rescuers tracked down the avalanche transceivers through the heaps of snow as they scrambled to dig out the victims. Police announced after 7 p.m. that the last victim had been found.
"It was a demanding search," said Tor Indrevold of the local Red Cross team, explaining that rescuers were "digging down two stories" of snow.
The northern tip of Norway is popular among tourists who come to experience the Arctic wilderness or marvel at the Northern Lights. The region also offers cross-country skiing, reindeer sledding, ice fishing and snowmobile rides.
But avalanches are common in the area. Two Norwegian skiers were killed by an snowslide on the island of Kvaloeya, just outside Tromsoe, in February.
Indrevold said the weather this season had raised the risk of avalanches, since heavy snow was followed by mild weather. He said the avalanche danger level in the area was three on a five-point scale, with five being the highest risk.
Associated Press writer Frank Jordans in Geneva contributed to this report.
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I see the concave slope but not the convex. Not trying to be a jerk, just want see what I'm missing.
Seedie
Seedie
S
snowww1
Well-known member
4th picture from top. Convex rollover on lookers right near the fracture line and left of the rock outcropping. The entire fracture line is pretty much in the zone of a convex rollover.
When analyzing a slope, look at the convex spots within the entire slope. They are likely trigger points.
Hope this helps. Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
When analyzing a slope, look at the convex spots within the entire slope. They are likely trigger points.
Hope this helps. Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
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