Avalanche course Requirement

[Butta]

The bottom line is that you can't fix stupid. Period. You can't force common sense on those determined to ignore dangers.
Where do these benign regulations end? Must wear a helmet? Must ride with a partner? Must file a ride plan with the new government agency created to enforce the new rules? No climbing hills over 20 degrees unless "certified" safe buy government inspectors?
The thought is good but the iplimentation would be difficult, costly and ineffective.
The upside is that it would create new jobs.
The downside is that it would further dilute the gene pool.

Those who would give away freedom for protection deserve neither.

Agreed! The more populated the world becomes the more we will see the "stupidity" rise to the surface. I don't want to be treated like the lowest common denominator. I deserve better than that. I don't want to have someone else (mainly a government entity) dictate my acceptable level of risk. I can do that all on my own, and if I screw it up, guess what, I screwed it up all on my own. For ANY institution to claim a hill "safe" or "avalanche free" is opening themselves up to HUGE liability when they guess wrong. Therefore, expect that institution to become EXTREMELY conservative and keep all of those areas with greater than a 2% incline off limits after the first snowfall....but hey, the idiots that jump on a mountain sled once a year will be safe, right?

More government, no thanks! We already have WAY too much govt, and sadly there is more to come, inevitably with this new "reign" of democratic majority. Pretty soon it will be illegal to drive your vehicle more than to/from work....recreation? forget it! Because big brother has to step in and protect us from injuring ourselves from such wreckless behavior......not everyone needs to be on a sled, but everyone has a right to decide for themselves, REGARDLESS of the education they have.

I see your drive, and empathize with your intention, but we need to do this ourselves, not through government mandates. The avalanche courses I see being advertised is a great start! More clubs need to be driven toward safety education, however the majority of our resources in these enthusiast clubs are being used to protect the open lands that we still have access to....why?? Because of government regulations. Get my point?

 

[Pastor]

I do not want any more government regulation! It is out of hand now.

What we need is self regulation self government.

How?

You get a class.

You educate those you ride with.

You get them to a class.

You decide who you will and will not ride with.

You can make the difference in someone elses life.

They can choose to not take the class, not ride with you, not be responsible, not be ready.

SELF GOVERNMENT!

 

[Beartoothclimb]

I do not want any more government regulation! It is out of hand now.

What we need is self regulation self government.

How?

You get a class.

You educate those you ride with.

You get them to a class.

You decide who you will and will not ride with.

You can make the difference in someone elses life.

They can choose to not take the class, not ride with you, not be responsible, not be ready.

SELF GOVERNMENT!

Do you think there are enough classes out there for people to take? Are they teaching people too much? too little?
Does anybody have any good suggestions for getting more people to take classes?

The whole reason for my first post was to try and get more people educated. I know implementing it would never happen but wanted to spark some alternative ideas and thinking on how to keep ourselves and friends riding their whole life.

 

[Pastor]

The class I attended last night with nine people from my riding group was the #1 best attended class I have ever been to. There were twice as many people there as I have ever seen before.

No, I do not think there are enough classes being offered. I do not know if it is a problem with finding a facility to host the class or if the avalanche guys are already pushed to their schedule limits.

We need classes every couple of weeks on the Wasatch Front to really get everybody educated.

This brings me back to Self Government - I must teach my buddies all I know. I need to share what I have learned so far in and out of the class room. Every ride we talk about avalanches, I show them things I have learned etc.

 

[isistwinteryet]

nail on the head

I do not want any more government regulation! It is out of hand now.

What we need is self regulation self government.

How?

You get a class.

You educate those you ride with.

You get them to a class.

You decide who you will and will not ride with.

You can make the difference in someone elses life.

They can choose to not take the class, not ride with you, not be responsible, not be ready.

SELF GOVERNMENT!

YOU are the only one who can make the decision who you will ride with. I will not ride with people who do not know what they are doing with their equipment. I think we owe it to our buddies to get the training. I think they owe it to us to do the same. The government will just mess everything up and we will be riding on nothing but groomed trails. (sorry flatlanders) Be accountable for your actions, be dependable for your buddies.

 

[DusterB]

Avy Classes are a MUST!

I took my avy class last year and have yet to look at the Mtns the same since. Best thing I did and it was FREE! Face it... Stupid IS Stupid DOES! I see it every weekend and it will never change. Rules an Regs won't change it either.

 

[mod03rmk800]

Why not start here? Have admin add a little "badge" thing like the coveted reputation deal that would show who has taken at least a little avy test on this site. There seems to be enough people like catwoman or coyotegirl(to name a few) that would more than likely help to figure out a decent on-line deal.
With the amount of people looking too join up on rides or looking for info on "coming out west" type things or even talking smack on all the avy related topics, would at least show they should not be completely naive to the risks.
I didn't buy my avy gear until I took a course and realized that at least I more than likely wouldn't be out there until spring thaw and would be able to do all I could do to HELP my fellow riders God forbid!
There are a lot of riders on here and I am sure most also ride with other people that are not part of snowest, who have zero training as well. This is SNOWEST and with that comes avy terrain.

 

[puckered]

I took a 3 day avy class through the ski patrol over 30 yrs ago when I moved to Idaho. It wasn't forced or legislated. I took it because I was interested in survival - mine and yours. I don't agree with making it a law, but would agree with incentives. It would be nice to find some kind of package deal on beacon, probe, shovel, ABS, avy class with deep discounts when buying a sled. Creative thinking can yield better results than law making.

 

[SnowSnob]

I think besides taking classes people have the option of education online. I found this to be a little helpful. It might be talking about skiers about it still works for us too.
http://www.tetongravity.com/conwayscorner/avilesson.htm
Here's one that's a little more informative.
http://www.nsidc.org/snow/avalanche/

There's also many good books out there too.
"Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain" was a recommended book that I just picked up.

 

[vinnie]

went to Mike Duffy's class last nite about avalanche awareness,avoidance & rescue for snowmobiling. Been going to the mtns for 12 years, did understand what was being said & talked about, very good class.

 

[RX1MountainMan]

Love it, hate it, argue, criticize, bash, praise this post but let me know what you think.

How would people feel if they had to take an avalanche course in order to ride their snowmobile. Im not talking all areas. This question is more geared towards just montana. You would need to show your course certificate in order to register your snowmobile in MT, get a nonresident snowmobile permit or to rent a sled.

I don't know how long the course would be. Maybe a 10, 15 or 20 hour awareness class for the minimum.

Shout out your thoughts......

While I think it is a great idea and I have been through several of them...in fact it is a requirement where I work to take the class before you can ride on work time, I don't believe that it will stop avalanche fatalities. You just can not remove the human element. I was just as guilty in my youth as anybody, all I wanted to do was get on the snow and go, leaving my brain at the truck. I would support not only avalanche training but a basic safety training, it may well reduce the number of incidents, but for the reason stated above I don't believe that we can eliminate them. Just my $.02

 

[RX1MountainMan]

I took a 3 day avy class through the ski patrol over 30 yrs ago when I moved to Idaho. It wasn't forced or legislated. I took it because I was interested in survival - mine and yours. I don't agree with making it a law, but would agree with incentives. It would be nice to find some kind of package deal on beacon, probe, shovel, ABS, avy class with deep discounts when buying a sled. Creative thinking can yield better results than law making.

Just read a couple more replies and agree with the incentives like a reduction in insurance premiums much like a defensive driving course.....

 

[sledmendy]

My vote: No

An avalache class is great and some sort of way to show certication like mentioned beforee could be helpful for some that ride with unknowns.

Let snowmobiling be as untouched by government as possible. IMO.

 

[Freak]

love it, hate it, argue, criticize, bash, praise this post but let me know what you think.

How would people feel if they had to take an avalanche course in order to ride their snowmobile. Im not talking all areas. This question is more geared towards just montana. You would need to show your course certificate in order to register your snowmobile in mt, get a nonresident snowmobile permit or to rent a sled.

I don't know how long the course would be. Maybe a 10, 15 or 20 hour awareness class for the minimum.

Shout out your thoughts......

AbsoFU.GGINinlutleynot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is exactly why I am so tough against dangerous avy riding because its only a matter of time before the govt steps in and starts shoving crap down our throats or restricting our sport. If people will just start riding safer we can prevent this.

 

[CatWoman]

I have a bunch of links in my sig line for people to check out. I took out all of my info on groups I am a member of for protecting our lands to ride, just so I could fit more avy links. One of the links is a link to the Avy section of this 4M, in which there are many more links and info (and I encourage anyone who has others to add them there). There is a lot of online education. Not saying it takes the place of classroom time, you can learn a lot sitting in with others, seeing pics and video, and having interaction with an instructor. Yet with these links, you can learn one heck of a lot!!

This is a serious topic, and it's really tough every time I read of another avy death. It just breaks my heart.

Locally we have all sorts of FREE classes....including a Level 1. They just finished with the skier/boarder Level 1, and the snowmobiler one starts this coming week. The sad thing is, while the skier class is filled to the brim, it'll be lucky if they get 10 sledders for this course which they are in the 2nd year of separating out in hopes of getting more snowmobiler interest. I hope I'm wrong about that this year.....oh how I'd love to be wrong!!!

Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain, is an EXCELLENT book!! If you ever have the chance to go to a presentation by Bruce Tremper, don't pass it up (author of the book, and from Utah Avy Center).

If you are a true snow geek and want to get deeper, The Avalanche Handbook by David McClung and Peter Schaerer is for you.

A smaller read, but still good, is Backcountry Avalanche Awareness by Bruce Jamieson.

I'm not sure what the answer is. I know I'm fussy about who I ride with. I want those I ride with to have the proper gear, know how to use it, and to have taken classes (and practice what they've learned). This is not only for myself, but for them. I'm not mean to them, but I do explain this all to them.

I think besides taking classes people have the option of education online. I found this to be a little helpful. It might be talking about skiers about it still works for us too.
http://www.tetongravity.com/conwayscorner/avilesson.htm
Here's one that's a little more informative.
http://www.nsidc.org/snow/avalanche/

There's also many good books out there too.
"Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain" was a recommended book that I just picked up.

 

[Raff_9001M]

http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/FAQ_Avalanche_Understanding.htm

I was perusing through Avalanche information last night and came upon this article. I am hoping to take my first avalanche related course this February and am interested to see if people agree or disagree with this article. It is kind of long so to summarize:

1. Too much time is spent on avalanche survival, rescue procedures and the supposed importance of “practice transceiver searches.”

2. Too much faith is placed on a student’s ability to assess risk by learning complex topics such as snow pack physics.

3. Not enough time is spent on group dynamics, problem solving, decision-making and conflict resolution. Often overlooked skills include how to anticipate turn around decisions and improve group communication.

4. Virtually no time is spent on learning how to use topographic maps to select and navigate safer routes. This is sad because the single most important factor in reducing fatalities may be knowing how to choose a safe route prior to the outing. Also, it should be obvious that it does no good to select a safe route at home if the student cannot navigate that route precisely out in a snow storm.

5. I believe these problems all evolved from the history of avalanche instruction itself. Most avalanche instructors (including myself) received their original training through the National Ski Patrol and/or the Search and Rescue Community. This has led to a heavy emphasis on avalanche survival and rescue techniques. It is only natural that instructors would train their students the way they themselves were trained. The students in turn are often looking for a quick (and glamorous?) solution to the avalanche problem. Avalanche courses have therefore evolved into a love affair with Avalanche Transceivers and Transceiver Searches. I have heard more than one instructor boast that they had gotten their transceiver search times down to under three minutes. The problem with this is that transceivers do not stop avalanches. Nor are there many cases in the records of transceivers stopping avalanche fatalities, In the pages that follow! I will outline some of my concerns regarding each of the four problems noted above and suggest some alternate teaching strategies which may help reverse the poor track record of current avalanche courses.


Fairly interesting read. Interested to hear from those who have been to these type of trainings. Thanks

 

[capener15]

I think a training course would be a great idea but I don't think enough people would jump on board for that to ever happen. I think that dealers should be required to hand out avalanche literature whenever they sell a sled. Give out the numbers to call for avalanche centers. As well as point the customer in the direction of where to get the neccessary avy gear (probe, beacon, shovel) If people understand the danger I think they will take a class on their own.

 

[Butta]

I would think that the good dealerships wouldn't wait for a "requirement" to educate it's clientele in Avy's.....they should be on the forefront of the education. Afterall, WE all can survive without snowmobiling (yes, it would suck a$$, but our livelihood doesn't depend on it) however the dealers rely on income from us to exist.....just a thought.

 

[turboless terry]

I would think that the good dealerships wouldn't wait for a "requirement" to educate it's clientele in Avy's.....they should be on the forefront of the education. Afterall, WE all can survive without snowmobiling (yes, it would suck a$$, but our livelihood doesn't depend on it) however the dealers rely on income from us to exist.....just a thought.

The dealers should'nt have to tell you anything. That is the problem with this world. Everyone wants to blame someone else for something they should have asked or done themselves. People have to be responsible for themselves. I don't want to be a puppet and sit around waiting for someone to tell me what to do. Like the one guy said you can't fix stupid or ignorance. I have all the gear, including an air bag, and have been to a bunch of classes. I am going to be responsible for myself.

 

[Butta]

The dealers should'nt have to tell you anything. That is the problem with this world. Everyone wants to blame someone else for something they should have asked or done themselves. People have to be responsible for themselves. I don't want to be a puppet and sit around waiting for someone to tell me what to do. Like the one guy said you can't fix stupid or ignorance. I have all the gear, including an air bag, and have been to a bunch of classes. I am going to be responsible for myself.

I'm not saying that the requirement for dealers to inform their patrons should exist, what I AM saying is that it should not only be driven by us, the riders, but should be LEAD by the dealers, the entities that make their living off the sport. THEY should be driving and helping fund the education, provide sources for information, classes, etc. This shouldn't be ever considered a requirement, but I would think it would just fall into good business practice. Actually, maybe take it one step further and have the Manufacturers get involved in promoting avalanche education.....wouldn't be too hard to film while they are making their new commercials up in the mts.