Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 8)

[deepdiver]

hey Ruffy,
Does this mean I get to come to your party with DiamondDave now??:>)))

I was surprised to hear of a skier taking pictures of sombodies registration sticker and then making up a trumped up story..but after more thought the greedyness does not surprise me. The real rub is that she had the odasity to actually post her illegal methods. There will be others that will now do that as well.

In other cases I have heard of falsified photos that showed snowmobile tracks and a lot of trash around them being created by skiers as well for their own agenda..

main thing here is that we all need to stay focused and on the same page for the most part. The more divided we become the weaker we become and will be nothing more than a slow moving target.

Cheers!

 

[yammadog]

Just like other statistics, if you read further down the thread other posters called her out on it and do not approve of the statement not to mention the activity. And Ruffy is right, we have our own form of flamers to get the goat of those that care to let it happen.

I think it's important to stay on track and address the greater issue. We all know this can be positive if we focus on the problem. Stop the wilderness incursion by the blatant offenders, keep our own house clean and taking the high road on conflict and shared use areas. It's purely considerate behaviour and the right thing to do.

The outlying comments will be ignored and squelched by both sides.

hey Ruffy,
Does this mean I get to come to your party with DiamondDave now??:>)))

I was surprised to hear of a skier taking pictures of sombodies registration sticker and then making up a trumped up story..but after more thought the greedyness does not surprise me. The real rub is that she had the odasity to actually post her illegal methods. There will be others that will now do that as well.

In other cases I have heard of falsified photos that showed snowmobile tracks and a lot of trash around them being created by skiers as well for their own agenda..

main thing here is that we all need to stay focused and on the same page for the most part. The more divided we become the weaker we become and will be nothing more than a slow moving target.

Cheers!

 

[huFfer]

So WMC, where are the maps you are "working" on, and sledders that know the area in additon to newtrout speak up I need to chat with you.

As stated before, I know the area well. What do you want to know?

 

[WMC]

[/COLOR][/B]


(1.) Well for once I am in partial agreement here. I am seeing some signs of actual willingness to give/take on this issue. I am not too familiar with that specific area, but the idea is sound. I do however have some reservations about the long term success of plans like this...(Skiers only, sleds only area) which I will go into below.

(2.) I agree that this would be best ultimate end result and we ALL are well aware the USFS knows there are incursions into non-motorized areas.

(3.) Believe it or not, everyone has issues on feeling "shut out or not being able to access the sweet spots". A crude example would be myself and my riding buddies...our situation is not so different from yours..WMC. You dont like to have to share the roads and areas with the noisy sledders so that you may enjoy the "back country". We hate that we have to ride the 5 - 15 miles of moguls to get to our (legal) "back country sweet spots". I know its very crude and possibly a bad comparison...but I hope you get the idea of what I'm trying to convey. We both want to get to our good areas, we both need to respect the others sport in doing so. Regardless of our respective sports, we are all winter enthusiasts and stewards of the mountains in which we play.

(4.) You are absolutely correct!! It does happen and it shouldn't. But, you have to look at the reality of it....you have 2 huge non-motorized areas bordering a major motorized area. EXAMPLE Incursions are going to happen, there is no way to ever stop it. Some are going to intentional, some will be by mistake. Every sport has bad apples that do not follow the rules...who buck the system.....who believe that they can do whatever they want. This is true for your sport as well.......parking lot incidents, ski pole incidents, etc. You cannot say "We will come to the table to work this out ONLY if there are no more incursions..ever". This is unrealistic and you know it. To stand behind that disclaimer is to make a stand that whatever happens, you've given yourself a backdoor out of the discussions.
People break the rules...always have and always will. Do any of your skiing buddies go faster than the posted speed limit on the way to the mountain? if so, WHY? There are posted signs and they ignored them. The WSP knows about them as well as all the others. You see the point I'm trying to make? I'm asking you to step down of the soap box, look at reality, and to not be so thin skinned. If both sides would just approach the issue with the intent to solve it instead of trying to outdo the other in "who got wronged the worse", maybe we can have a useful discussion to get what both groups want.

(5.) You almost made it through 1 thread without playing "We have be wronged", "We are the ones who deserve the change to happen for".
Once again, step down off the soapbox. Both sides have been treated badly, both sides also need to learn to treat the others with more respect. That statement applies to a very select few people, we all know that the majority of Sledders and Back Country Skiers have treated each other with respect over the years and will continue to in the future.

(6.) BTW, thank you for pointing out and reminding all of us that the SnoPark Maps show the Motorized/Non-Motorized areas. It will be helpful to a lot of people.

Thank you for the very thoughtful discussion. You have made the important point that we do have something in common, "Regardless of our respective sports, we are all winter enthusiasts and stewards of the mountains in which we play."

The compromise idea is not dependent on absolute honoring of Boundaries from accidental incursions etc.- but a responsible plan would address such issues However, you folks can help our side of the Forest users and yourself by helping encourage or establish that folks ride snowmobiles where they are supposed to ride and leave the rest alone. The stories of ski-pole stabbings of riders is just tragic- skiers need to get over it and behave, no excuse, that is just criminal behavior. But if we can agree to a management scheme that serves both sides, perhaps some of the tension would be alleviated- we could have our uses without getting in each other's way.

WMC is not interested in closing the Forest to snowmobiles. We want some of the nice stuff for non-motorized use. In discussions here etc. we have developed some ideas to accomplish that without taking away the best snowmobile terrain, and without taking much at all from that crest that would really help the non-motorized crowd. There are some Organizations and many disgruntled Forest pedestrians who appear to be very anti-snowmobile. The longer we have the current type of management the more negative experiences occur until it goes to the unfortunate usual game of all-or-nothing, 'let's see who wins in the 9th Circuit!' If you actually read what WMC is after we are asking for USFS to manage in a way to improve areas for our use, and we are here saying to riders that yours is a legitimate Forest use, can we discuss and try to find some ideas to help both sides!

Perhaps WMC discusses our grievance-type issues to try to demonstrate our purpose, to contrast that from 'moto-haters' or dedicated hard-core environmentalists, that we are not.

WMC Executive is three guys who communicate with hundreds of folks who engage in non-motorized recreation. The three of us have 100 years combined since we first started traveling the snowy Cascades on skis or snowshoes, and thousands of days on the snow. We three have very pertinent related professional background in and out of USFS that relates to these issues (none of us currently work for USFS). WMC is mainly a catalyst, we can bring the folks together in our area in discussion and consideration. WMC is not a formal organization with formal membership or dues. We meet and talk with the stakeholders related to these issues.

We are attempting to get snowmobile interest folks together with our industry-contact and with our Executive and one or two other persons who are significant to the non-motorized winter Forest user group. Face-to-face, looking at maps and understanding each other will create real potential for collaboration, compromise and successful management of the winter Forest.

Thank you.

 

[deepdiver]

Yamadoggie and Ruffy.
Yamadawgs post "I think it's important to stay on track and address the greater issue. We all know this can be positive if we focus on the problem. Stop the wilderness incursion by the blatant offenders, keep our own house clean and taking the high road on conflict and shared use areas. It's purely considerate behaviour and the right thing to do." I totally agree with those points. We and all Sledders need to be better "stewards" of the areas we have. If you pack food and beverages up with you pack them out. Up at the Sat tower at GC last year Big Bob and I saw three old beater sleds take off and left their BUD cans behind... Big Bob tried to get to his turbo sled but couldnt get it closed up and started in time before they were out of reach. That would have been the last time that happened with that three. We picked up their crap.

Guys lets start by looking at our own riding partners..if they are getting stupid..jump their shi__t. if they wont get it together refuse to ride with them. By doing some small baby steps we will have less exposure. Like Rob said...we need to get our own backyard cleaned up! Ride respectfully and stay the Fu__*ck out of the wilderness PERIOD! Not even a track past a sign if you see it and dont like it. Trust me in Oregon I went to the end of the road and there were no tracks and no one around and just a small sign for the wilderness. The old logging road went up to the top of the old burn area and the snow was lite dry and deep. None the less I pulled an about face and left it..Ahhhh it was trying to call me in. Which tells part of the problem...there is too much wilderness created and that puts too many limits on those not welcome in the wilderness areas for whatever reason. Lets STOP more wilderness..there is enough..Most of it isnt even used!

What I pointed out was not a statistic my friend. It was someone that was admiting to how they falsify legal identifications information and send it to the forest service to get what they want. Sure there are sledders that talk some smack and there are bad apples here as well..but I cant recall anybody going as far as to creating false information and sending it in to the authorities to wrongfully get their way. Even on that site the others that didnt condone it were not too up in arms about it either. Didnt even get a slap on the hand...try that crap here and see what other will tell you.
It's like someone driving by your house and getting a picture of your liscense plate and calling the police and telling them that someone stole their TV and molested their daughter and they got a picture of the plate. Look at the damage that can be done to the inocent That is way different that BS statistics.

There isnt really a track to stay on when it comes to Rondondee/WMC..dont forget his IP was verified as the same. Rondondee made some pretty nasty threats on Pm's to a few. I cant see how a two man show can have any creditability to waste much time with. The bigger picture is the constasnt grab for more land set aside. Once you have more non-motorized areas there will be requests for more and more..it justs opens the door to the next wave. Enough is enough. I do agree with more plowed road access to wilderness areas. That is where it should start. Lets take baby steps..get them to the woods and get some signs up all over the boundries and have signs (large ones on the access roads) that spell out the rules of engagement.

On the other side of the coin or the "rub" if you will...is that this splinter group and other skier groups want things to be like they were 100 years ago. Well the World has changed and we dont live in the past. I like to ride my Indian Chief on back hiways and byways of the past. I like them to be car free adn truck free...however they pay taxes and they are public roads and they have as much right to the same road as I do. It is beyond reason for me to think that the World should go back to the 1940's so I can have a good woodster riding all by myself with no noise from those smelly diesel trucks and annoying cars that ride my arse.

Or...The guy that likes to go to the old fishing hole with his buddies from his small town. They used to have a nice quite spot to smoke some loco weed and throw a bobber out with a worm and eat some potato chips...now the their world has changed and there are ethnic people showing up. They park their old oil smoking beater next to the lake right next to where they are at. They play their music and drink their beer and get lloud and stupid. They have their uncontrolled kids there jumping in the water. These three good ole boys that want the public fishing hole to be like it was in the 1930's. Well that is just not feasable and would be a discriminatory practice. I guess they could ask for their private spot on the public lake..but when everybody pays for that same area should they have a right to have that set aside? The Forest service sure as heck doesnt have the time or money to do everything all these special interest groups want. It is Public land, and with that in mind you shouldnt restrict others or ask for rules to be inforced that basically discriminate against them because you dont like the color of their skin, the color of their mode of recreation or the noise that made your fishing hole a different place. The World is a different place and we cant expect to have areas all to ourselves. Sure I would like to have a place set aside just for me with no non turboed sleds as the others are too slow and cant get out of the way fast enough and this causes a saftey hazard. Thats a big BS statement dont ya think and isnt fair to the rest that paid their taxes and registrations just the same The moral of the story is that there is way more to these type of requests than what we see at face value. So the poor ole boys had to revert to Power Bait and ipods and iphones with bluetooth to keep the noise out. Thru on some dark sunglasses and had to look the other way. They still ahd a good time..it was just a different time adn maybe not as good as before, but the world isnt as good as it was before so we need to quit trying to create fantasy land.

However any group has to have some creditability established to consider their wishes..WMC is a splinter group that has lied and down right misconstrued the truth on multiple occasions. I have a real hard time coming to the table with those of little creditability that wont even identify theirselves. You just cant have an isolated give away or it will set a precedence for others to come and we will be hashing crap like this out non stop for ever. I used to be one heck of a telemarker...I didnt like the thought of snowboarders..then I tried it and found out that it was way more fun to snowboard..opened up more terrain not in acreas but what you can do with it. The Other tele's including some of my friends would not invite me any more..I flattened out their snow(dont know how it became theirs) I floated in powder better than they could and I could ride better than them and get better air. The feeling of deep powder was more like floating on a cloud..they could not have the enjoyment that I did and they didnt like it! The BC skiers still dont want anything other than their own kind...very self centered..I was one of them and now see how dumb my ways were. Only when you change can you see back at how dumb your ideas really were.

WMC says they dont want to close off snowmobiling..yet they aligned with WWC. They(or the two to three of them) are trying to play both sides. They are trying to get support from any direction and hope they make out somehow. That my friend is Using People! Your Karma may kick your arse for that. Make no mistake about it – in today’s world you must ‘buy’ access to our public lands by bringing money, volunteer resources, and partnerships to the table. Without such efforts – whether you like it or not and since WMC doesnt have the resources they want to ride on someone elses dime! If they had the finances they would have a web site at a minimum and would have had legal documents drawn up. They would have had maps for their proposed areas. If you go to the Wenatchee forest site and go to the Forest Plan revision there are a few "word" docs...open up and se some of the so called comments. An assumption is that some of these are from WMC he just copies stuff others have written. I have written them extensively and did not see one comment that I had.!

Environmental groups are working like never before to have snowmobiling kicked out of many great riding areas across all States, so the stakes are higher than ever. New groups like the Winter Wildlands Alliance have formed and exist solely for one reason – they “hate” snowmobiles and continue to push the Forest Service for exclusive “quiet use” areas where snowmobiling would become prohibited. We simply can’t let that happen

I think we really need to floor this whole idea until closer to winter. There have only been a very few of us here even engaged. The most I have seen viewing this thread are 3 at any one time.Lets see what the masses think as it effects many more than just us few.

Perhaps RMK2112, the moderator can create a Poll with a bunch of different ideas and thoughts and see what folks click on.

 

[rmk2112]

Anyone can start a Poll...go for it!!

 

[yammadog]

Mark,

How long has the land use battle been going on? Plenty long. What's been happening? We keep losing.

If we have the ability to understand another users perspective and respect their right to have their opinion then we have the ability to support thier effort to exploit what is already in place. WMC has altered their initial position of an all out closure of the area. They've identified support for newtrouts comments and continue to come here in discussion to get bashed as liars and selfish. Sure, in the initial proposal it could be said selfish, but again, the position has changed and I think we can recognize it as good faith discussion. He's concealed his identity to the larger 4m population, but not to everyone, I'm aware of who he is, his profession, his contacts etc. And at some point it may become more public if he feels secure enough to do so.

Like it or not splintered or coordinated larger groups are having our areas shutdown at every turn. As Oregongirl identified earlier, a similar small group has been successful in Oregon with the sledders simply and completely opposed.

If we are able to assist in an alternative with the goals WMC has identified, why wouldn't we support that effort if it means us not losing area and in turn gaining a possible ally in the larger battle with WWA etc.? WMC did state they are not in support of eliminating sleds, just looking to gain better access or save some of that area that had been traditional for them. And we do have more "regular" riders making their way in to areas that had been usually only visited by the hard core skilled riders, so nothing he is saying is outside of some level of fact.

The question comes about, how do we save our riding areas and not continually spend money in legal battles and fighting constant closure and losing most of the time? Let's set a new precedent in keeping areas open by finding ways to work with the opposition, if it doesn't work out, then we can take the old route and hope for a different outcome.

At this point, it's creating greater access, redesignating existing non-motorized area and changing our culture to calling out the poachers and people that aren't doing the right thing with their junk and common courtesy to other users. So, how do we do that? who do we talk to? What's the process? What method do we use for communications?

Yamadoggie and Ruffy.
Yamadawgs post "I think it's important to stay on track and address the greater issue. We all know this can be positive if we focus on the problem. Stop the wilderness incursion by the blatant offenders, keep our own house clean and taking the high road on conflict and shared use areas. It's purely considerate behaviour and the right thing to do." I totally agree with those points. We and all Sledders need to be better "stewards" of the areas we have. If you pack food and beverages up with you pack them out. Up at the Sat tower at GC last year Big Bob and I saw three old beater sleds take off and left their BUD cans behind... Big Bob tried to get to his turbo sled but couldnt get it closed up and started in time before they were out of reach. That would have been the last time that happened with that three. We picked up their crap.

Guys lets start by looking at our own riding partners..if they are getting stupid..jump their shi__t. if they wont get it together refuse to ride with them. By doing some small baby steps we will have less exposure. Like Rob said...we need to get our own backyard cleaned up! Ride respectfully and stay the Fu__*ck out of the wilderness PERIOD! Not even a track past a sign if you see it and dont like it. Trust me in Oregon I went to the end of the road and there were no tracks and no one around and just a small sign for the wilderness. The old logging road went up to the top of the old burn area and the snow was lite dry and deep. None the less I pulled an about face and left it..Ahhhh it was trying to call me in. Which tells part of the problem...there is too much wilderness created and that puts too many limits on those not welcome in the wilderness areas for whatever reason. Lets STOP more wilderness..there is enough..Most of it isnt even used!

What I pointed out was not a statistic my friend. It was someone that was admiting to how they falsify legal identifications information and send it to the forest service to get what they want. Sure there are sledders that talk some smack and there are bad apples here as well..but I cant recall anybody going as far as to creating false information and sending it in to the authorities to wrongfully get their way. Even on that site the others that didnt condone it were not too up in arms about it either. Didnt even get a slap on the hand...try that crap here and see what other will tell you.
It's like someone driving by your house and getting a picture of your liscense plate and calling the police and telling them that someone stole their TV and molested their daughter and they got a picture of the plate. Look at the damage that can be done to the inocent That is way different that BS statistics.

There isnt really a track to stay on when it comes to Rondondee/WMC..dont forget his IP was verified as the same. Rondondee made some pretty nasty threats on Pm's to a few. I cant see how a two man show can have any creditability to waste much time with. The bigger picture is the constasnt grab for more land set aside. Once you have more non-motorized areas there will be requests for more and more..it justs opens the door to the next wave. Enough is enough. I do agree with more plowed road access to wilderness areas. That is where it should start. Lets take baby steps..get them to the woods and get some signs up all over the boundries and have signs (large ones on the access roads) that spell out the rules of engagement.

On the other side of the coin or the "rub" if you will...is that this splinter group and other skier groups want things to be like they were 100 years ago. Well the World has changed and we dont live in the past. I like to ride my Indian Chief on back hiways and byways of the past. I like them to be car free adn truck free...however they pay taxes and they are public roads and they have as much right to the same road as I do. It is beyond reason for me to think that the World should go back to the 1940's so I can have a good woodster riding all by myself with no noise from those smelly diesel trucks and annoying cars that ride my arse.

Or...The guy that likes to go to the old fishing hole with his buddies from his small town. They used to have a nice quite spot to smoke some loco weed and throw a bobber out with a worm and eat some potato chips...now the their world has changed and there are ethnic people showing up. They park their old oil smoking beater next to the lake right next to where they are at. They play their music and drink their beer and get lloud and stupid. They have their uncontrolled kids there jumping in the water. These three good ole boys that want the public fishing hole to be like it was in the 1930's. Well that is just not feasable and would be a discriminatory practice. I guess they could ask for their private spot on the public lake..but when everybody pays for that same area should they have a right to have that set aside? The Forest service sure as heck doesnt have the time or money to do everything all these special interest groups want. It is Public land, and with that in mind you shouldnt restrict others or ask for rules to be inforced that basically discriminate against them because you dont like the color of their skin, the color of their mode of recreation or the noise that made your fishing hole a different place. The World is a different place and we cant expect to have areas all to ourselves. Sure I would like to have a place set aside just for me with no non turboed sleds as the others are too slow and cant get out of the way fast enough and this causes a saftey hazard. Thats a big BS statement dont ya think and isnt fair to the rest that paid their taxes and registrations just the same The moral of the story is that there is way more to these type of requests than what we see at face value. So the poor ole boys had to revert to Power Bait and ipods and iphones with bluetooth to keep the noise out. Thru on some dark sunglasses and had to look the other way. They still ahd a good time..it was just a different time adn maybe not as good as before, but the world isnt as good as it was before so we need to quit trying to create fantasy land.

However any group has to have some creditability established to consider their wishes..WMC is a splinter group that has lied and down right misconstrued the truth on multiple occasions. I have a real hard time coming to the table with those of little creditability that wont even identify theirselves. You just cant have an isolated give away or it will set a precedence for others to come and we will be hashing crap like this out non stop for ever. I used to be one heck of a telemarker...I didnt like the thought of snowboarders..then I tried it and found out that it was way more fun to snowboard..opened up more terrain not in acreas but what you can do with it. The Other tele's including some of my friends would not invite me any more..I flattened out their snow(dont know how it became theirs) I floated in powder better than they could and I could ride better than them and get better air. The feeling of deep powder was more like floating on a cloud..they could not have the enjoyment that I did and they didnt like it! The BC skiers still dont want anything other than their own kind...very self centered..I was one of them and now see how dumb my ways were. Only when you change can you see back at how dumb your ideas really were.

WMC says they dont want to close off snowmobiling..yet they aligned with WWC. They(or the two to three of them) are trying to play both sides. They are trying to get support from any direction and hope they make out somehow. That my friend is Using People! Your Karma may kick your arse for that. Make no mistake about it – in today’s world you must ‘buy’ access to our public lands by bringing money, volunteer resources, and partnerships to the table. Without such efforts – whether you like it or not and since WMC doesnt have the resources they want to ride on someone elses dime! If they had the finances they would have a web site at a minimum and would have had legal documents drawn up. They would have had maps for their proposed areas. If you go to the Wenatchee forest site and go to the Forest Plan revision there are a few "word" docs...open up and se some of the so called comments. An assumption is that some of these are from WMC he just copies stuff others have written. I have written them extensively and did not see one comment that I had.!

Environmental groups are working like never before to have snowmobiling kicked out of many great riding areas across all States, so the stakes are higher than ever. New groups like the Winter Wildlands Alliance have formed and exist solely for one reason – they “hate” snowmobiles and continue to push the Forest Service for exclusive “quiet use” areas where snowmobiling would become prohibited. We simply can’t let that happen

I think we really need to floor this whole idea until closer to winter. There have only been a very few of us here even engaged. The most I have seen viewing this thread are 3 at any one time.Lets see what the masses think as it effects many more than just us few.

Perhaps RMK2112, the moderator can create a Poll with a bunch of different ideas and thoughts and see what folks click on.

 

[diamonddave]

I can't take this anymore. I'll be out on the ocean if anybody needs me...

Mark, you're not cool enough to hang with us. I had to beg just to get an invitation.

 

[deepdiver]

LOL...you funny man. You get any funnier and youll have to trade on that sled for a Yamahahaha.

 

[deepdiver]

Mark,

How long has the land use battle been going on? Plenty long. What's been happening? We keep losing. That is because we dont "unite". We need to band together and fight for our right to snowmobile. By uniting the voices of thousands of snowmobilers throughout the west together we can win many of these battles and protect our form of recreation.

If we have the ability to understand another users perspective and respect their right to have their opinion then we have the ability to support thier effort to exploit what is already in place. NO...we should support multiple use recreation and not support exclusive designations that eliminate one form of recreation over another.

WMC has altered their initial position of an all out closure of the area. They've identified support for newtrouts comments and continue to come here in discussion to get bashed as liars and selfish. Sure, in the initial proposal it could be said selfish, but again, the position has changed and I think we can recognize it as good faith discussion. Not sure about that one...WMC/Rondondee have made attempts to get whatever they can at any cost. Once you make trumped up statements and statements based on something a friend told you there isnt real validity to that. IT is heresay at best. WMC needs to denounce their association with those other groups that they also support , that want to kill snowmobiling all together. They also need to denounce publicly their wishes to have more wilderness areas. Ther are over 106 million acreas of wilderness and most of that is in the West states. WMC/Rondondee is not perceived as an honest entity. They are perceived as a BS forked tongue group that will work all sides to get whatever they can for their own personal gain regardless of how they do it. Perception is truth until proven otherwise.

He's concealed his identity to the larger 4m population, but not to everyone, I'm aware of who he is, his profession, his contacts etc. And at some point it may become more public if he feels secure enough to do so. Nope: needs to man up and come clean. Admit the Rondondee association and his attacks on others including verbal threats or percieved threats. Heck he even made a physical challenge to me. Admin was notified of his behaviour. There he was having a pipe dream and better back the helele off in his best interest.

Like it or not splintered or coordinated larger groups are having our areas shutdown at every turn. As Oregongirl identified earlier, a similar small group has been successful in Oregon with the sledders simply and completely opposed. Case by Case basis..again thats because we dont unite. We just have a bunch of spread out groups and people that cant get on the same page to fight. I just am not ready to stick my head in the sand or snow, and pretend this problem is not happening.

If we are able to assist in an alternative with the goals WMC has identified, why wouldn't we support that effort if it means us not losing area and in turn gaining a possible ally in the larger battle with WWA etc.? Thats interesting..but WMC has alligned with WWA, WWC etc...sorry if I dont get all the fanatical acronyms correct. They go back and forth??? They are either confused or changing their tactics to fit their mission the best...they need to know what they want.

WMC did state they are not in support of eliminating sleds, just looking to gain better access or save some of that area that had been traditional for them. And we do have more "regular" riders making their way in to areas that had been usually only visited by the hard core skilled riders, so nothing he is saying is outside of some level of fact. Agreed :>) well almost...Sure they dont want to eliminate sleds...thats so he can still get his beater sled up to the edge of the wilderness area via a plowed road on my tax payer dime..I dont think he cares anything about the freedom and experiance of real snowmobile riding..If I have to explain it to them, they wouldnt get it or understand it anyway..He has stretched the truth a lot and made it more colorful than it really is. WMC makes their little hurt feelings seem worse than they need to be. As far as thier traditional areas..well it wast their land but public land so none of it was "thiers". IF that was the case then we should have the the animal Trappers use the same land as them. The Trapper had those areas way before WMC. Not to mention the Native Americans..should we ask them about the use of traditional areas? Very weak argument IMHO.

The question comes about, how do we save our riding areas and not continually spend money in legal battles and fighting constant closure and losing most of the time? Easy...by uniting in numbers!

Let's set a new precedent in keeping areas open by finding ways to work with the opposition, if it doesn't work out, then we can take the old route and hope for a different outcome. In a perfect world that might work...unfortunatly with the minds of the enviromental nazis we will always be under attack. There are too many of them that far outnumber WMC that are approaching in our direction. In addition WMC has endorsed some of these. They have even gone and posted for help in their fight on some of their web sites.

At this point, it's creating greater access, redesignating existing non-motorized area and changing our culture to calling out the poachers and people that aren't doing the right thing with their junk and common courtesy to other users. So, how do we do that? who do we talk to? What's the process? What method do we use for communications? This is where it gets difficult...I can not post what will happen to poachers should they be cought. You know its like the idiot I cought last year hunting driving across the medeows with his Escalade, weapon in hand and spot light in the other hand. The escalade smelled like a french whore house! LOng story short they wont do it again..well at least in that area. Snowmobilers need to get in the face of anybody they know that even hints at going into an unaurhorized area. I have a friend of mine that wants to do things like this on a smaller scale after a few drinks..a firm NO WAY..ususlly gets him straightened out. Granted there is a lot more work needed in this regard. Snowmobile clubs need to help out in wildernes sign postings. Get the signs out that warn before you get to the boundry. They cant just be a single sign on the road..they have to be all over the place. WMC who is the most upset about incroachment should pony up some change and have some Trail Cams....I use them for hunting(scouting) They have IR flash and motion sensors. They are camoed and some look like tree bark. There are some that can be ownloaded remotely. WMC also needs to show a financial statement and be registered as a 501c organization. They need to denounce one of hteir eailier statements on a different forum where they wanted these areas so they could also offer snowmobile accessed for profit ski tours. That is where I call BS on it all. They are looking for a way to use the tas payers for their personal advantage and that just isnt right! I think all in all WMC has tried to many unethical methods to get what they want. They are not a respected or valid user group. Should they become one..well then and only then maybe I could give some consideration or re-evaluate(again bribery with BBQ and beer would help) I may be easy but I am not cheap..opps I meant I am cheap but not easy

Rob...I see your points and they are valid and totally understandable. I just dont think this is the way to go for many reasons. Nothing wrong with your viewpoint, however I really dont think it will do anything to help or save one little bit of riding ground for snowmobiling. There isnt anything in this plan to save acreas for snowmobiling. A reduction at best. Then comes the tough battles..ie more wilderness and closed off areas by other groups. This is just one piece of the puzle. Yours is a different approach, but I am really struggling with the thought of any conversation with the likes of WMC/Rondondee. A different group or a different person that has respect and credability(I didnt say creditability this time) and approached this in a honest way, without playing multiple user groups, would be a whole different story. But it still comes down to the same thing...the forest service needs to STOP playing favoritism to select user groups. They need to stop subsidising certain cattle companies that have historically done more damage to the forest than anybody else. Rob I did my first three years in school studing to be a Froestry and Wildlife major..life changed after my daughter died and I ended up in Electronics. That said I have done a lot of reading then and tons after on things the forest service does and condones. Recreational plans are not what they are all about and it is not what they want to spend their time on. They just want the loudest group to be quite and it usually comes down to whoever barks the most wins. Who has the lawyers and who has banded the most people together. Thats why it is imperative that we focus on getting each and every snowmobiler to fight for equal rights and stop the discriminatory practices of the forest service catering to select user groups. Public land should be just that..open to the public. There will always be those fanatical splinter groups and there will aways be more that want a concession. If you start working with them to help them achieve ther goals you will never be done as there will be another one waiting in line for something else. There is more than enough work in the snowmobile community to keep you busy. I would likle to see them talk about helping us..that just not going to happen. They sure as heck wont donate a fime to keep a snopark open like the good snowmobile folks over Yakima way did to keep those parks open last year that the DNR was going to stop access to because they didnt have money to do what they had been doing which was basically nothing! I have asked WMC/Rondondee what he has done to give back to the community or the Country..he hasn and thats why they WMC can not answer that. They want more and they want it for free! They ski for free, use the snowmobile trails for free..now want plowed roads for free. Who the heck is going to do that for them? The forest service? Not going to happen. Every Government agency is either mismanaged or financially strapped that they wont allocate funding for anything additional.
Rondondee pretty much shot himself in the foot so to speak IMHO.

Now I put my Skier hat on. I used to talk to the logging companies. I would scout during the summer for new ski areas. Just like scouting for Elk! You have to put in some effort to have the reward. Once I found out the logged areas I know that there are skid trails into them. In the Winte they are hard to see after the branches of the protection trees getting heavy. Sometimes invisable! If you do your due diligence one will know ehere thery are skiing areas that no one knows abaout. Big daeal about the "traditional" area. There are always new things being created...get out and look around. Do your homework. You can even purchase arial photography of the areas you are interested in.
I am sorry if WMC doesnt want to look at anything other than the same ole same ole. Get off your A_s_s and explore! Dont piss yourself if you hear a snowmobile, there are too many other things in life that are way more important. Put your energy into something less selfish and greedy like the Childrens Miricle Network or the American Cancer Society. Maybe use your WMC energy to volunteer somewhere.


WMC..I ask you this. You talk about what you want to TAKE. What have you done to "give back"? You need to develope some community respect to start with. Build a good background and reputation. You need to identify yourself and your leaders. As far as I know you may be nothing more than a three time loser sitting in a Prison in the library on a computer. Build a reputation of respect in the community and I dont mean just your private skier group of a few people. Why didnt you ever volunteer for the Chelan County Possee when it was alive (this is not the snowmobile S&R)?? I know some climbers in the healthcare industry that were on the team, that know who you are. Be glad they are not voting on this! As far as any encroachments into the wilderness...The majority of these may be by a very few that dont know where the boundries are. This State is piss poor in marking boundries. Even the DNR signs are a joke! Signs that are up above your head that say no motorized vehicles(non winter) above a trail. I hiked by that old sign for three years before I saw the fadded old sign. It had to have been 20 years old or more! There should have been a sign before it and maybe another one farther along that sayd "turn around now" In Oregon I saw a big STOP sign that also ahd the wilderness boundry warning..that really cought my eye along with the message of the fine and such.

With all that in mind..once again I will say that as we are few and this effects many..we should wait until closer to winter when there are many more people looking around on the 4M. I think it was interesting as to their timing on there not so great ideas..a planned tactic perhaps.

 

[deepdiver]

Wenatchee Mountain Coalition (WMC) non-motorized campaign
There is an effort by this group, and very likely other non-motorized groups/users, to try and sway the FS into taking away areas that we as snowmobilers currently access and ride by requesting that they be non-motorized only. The biased view of their land use proposal, seeking exclusive use for non-motorized areas for the areas near the crest of the Wenatchee Mountains, is unacceptable.

The 'significant' area they are targeting is the Wenatchee Mountains ridge crest from Van Epps Pass to Three Brothers (mountain). This encompasses Ingalls Peak, Fortune Peak, Iron Peak,the peaks surrounding Bean Creek, Earl Peak, Navaho Peak, Three Brothers and the Wenatchee Mountains crest from Rd 9716 to the west of Diamond Head across Tronsen Head, Mt. Lillian including down to the Old Ellensburg trail to Mission Peak and on to the Mission Ridge Road including Lake Clara, Mission Peak, and surrounding areas.

 

[rmk2112]

To everyone following this and other threads involving WMC

WMC has admitted to being Randonne, they are 1 in the same. While WMC says they are 3 different people, we know for a fact that one of them is Randonne.

As far as I am concerned, whatever little credibility WMC had is now completely gone.

Posting under different names when 1 name has behaved badly, posting under multiple IP's and giving out misleading and false information are all indicators of what Randonnee, WMC and whoever else is a "member" of WMC actually are and feel they have to use to get what they want.

WMC and Randonnee will NOT be banned. I'm not going to give them the "SnoWest doesn't want to listen to our proposals or talk to solves issues so they banned us" excuse. This will more than likely turn into a very heated discussion and while we know there have been threats towards members of SnoWest by Randonnee in the past, I urge all SnoWest members to keep cool heads and to show the respectful, professional behavior that everyone has shown up until this point. We are "honest", hard working stewards of the forests and we need to continue to show the world as such. We need to show that we will not stoop to the level of so called groups like WMC who lie and deceive others to rally their causes.

 

[rmk2112]

Thread continued to: [url=http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220926]Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 9)[/url]