Arctic Cat Alpha Lessons Learned - 154 or 165 / Mountain or Hardcore / 2019 or 2020 Engine / Best Clutching / Elevate Alpha / New or Used / Pipe /

[MTN_VIPER]

An update to my previous post after a couple of rides and playing around with shock pressures.
First off I'm an old guy and my reflexes are not what they use to be, so I found myself over-correcting trying to keep up with the sled.
What I found was that the front skid shock pressure makes a HUGE difference in the way the sled handles. Far more so then any other sled I have owned including this one with a twin rail skid in it. I suspect that the reason for this is because as you increase the FTS pressure the sled transfers back on to a single rail as opposed to two rails spaced farther apart.
Anyway I dropped the FTS down to Cat's recommended 35psi and it toned it down a significant amount. It's still very nimble and easy to ride, but much more forgiving and easier to keep up with.

As a side note, we usually only ride the trails to get to the play areas, but it seems to ride smoother on the trail as well.
I probably will slowly bump up FTS pressure as I get more miles on it and familiar with it's handling. In the mean time I'll keep an eye on the rail for signs of excessive bottoming out.

 

[thump426er]

Last year: 18 MC 162 stock
Current: 20 HC 165, SLP can, Specialty Motorsports belt drive 2.52 gearing, Dalton adj weights

Some things I’ve found, generally I’m a snow snob so only ride nice deeper dry interior BC snow, steep, tight, technical tree riding preference but not solely:

-The 3.5 pitch track vs 3, I find the 3.5 wants to trench initially, 3 doesn’t. Once up on “plane” the 3.5 moves way more snow than the 3 pitch and works better on climbs etc. This track needs to be tightened lots though. I run 1.5” @ 25 lbs.

- I’ve clipped every window under the lug side as well.

- twin rail MC could hold a steeper side hill with less effort. Not that the mono can’t, I just find it’s a bit more work when it’s ultra steep, as in almost pointed up hill and in a slow, controlled side hill. Like a road cut type steep, not the usual treed side hill most people play in.

- Something I love with this mono; say I get pinched out in a nice steep treed sidehill, so I turn down looking for the next hit. When I see it I can literally just swing the ship 90 and hit the line and it’s effortless. Could still do it on the 18 MC but to get that tight turn instantly I was hopping the one leg McGinty on the uphill board with uphill leg dragging in the snow and blasting the throttle to do it. This thing you just weight over and throttle, BOOM, you’re in it. Ridiculous.

- my 20 feels like it has a bit more bang just shy of the top rpms, but it might be the track.

- I found the 154 alpha way more work than my 165 alpha or 18 MC 162. If I just did re-entries and whips etc I’d be all over the 154, but for technical mtn riding side hilling in the trees, not the right tool. Takes more work, more lively, reminded me of a doo chassis because it’s so busy. I don’t like having to think about the sled, I want to just think about the terrain and what I have to do to manage it, not manage terrain and a sled.

- Silicon and tape that intake up!!! Read that again then make sure you do it!! Before I even rode it I went through the whole intake. There were some MASSIVE holes! Seams that didn’t sit flush with each other and literal 1/2” gaps. Horrible, made in china type assembly. I blew the crank on my 18, dealer said snow ingestion. I then had a demo 19 alpha 154 and blew the crank on it on day 2. Also saying snow ingestion.

- Because of my 2 motors blown from snow ingestion I now also tape where the hood meets the lower body below and just above the bumper (vertical seam where bumper and upper a-arm mounts are) I’m ultra diligent in sealing my intake and any chance area that could let snow pass and yet first few rides out in deep snow on my 20 I would still get bogging and then had snow/ice inside where throttle bodies are. This to me means snow is being forced past the rubber gasket the hood seals on. No where else I can think of that I hadn’t siliconed and taped. So I tape the hell out of those 2 sides. Since doing that I don’t get any bogging. It’s a PIA to tape and remove tape to get hood off though.

- 20 HC is now in shop for a new engine, yes you read that right, 3 engines in 1200km. The piston pin needle bearing cage failed and went through the engine. So, I’m now also concerned about oiling, or lack thereof. I feel it needs more. Not sure how I solve this dilemma yet without compromising warranty. But, maybe, just maybe it was a junky bearing and nothing to do with oiling, it happens, but..... c’mon.

- shock setup is crucial. Coils were a pain at first to get dialed but since then haven’t had to touch them no matter the temp or elevation, just flick the comp adjusters as needed and bingo. Lockout the RTS in deep snow when there are no old hard tracks or hard buildup around base of trees and it’ll blow you away where you’ll go.

I’ve probably gone off topic with all the writing but, it’s like being addicted to an abusive sex goddess. She blows your mind when doing all the things you love, but she can throw you to the gutter in an instant (3 engines and numerous little finicky broken things),,, but I just can’t leave her.

 

[Frostbite]

Thumper426ER, that's quite the tale! WOW, you really laid it all on the line.

I have to say that being an older guy with sketchy hips, the way you describe being able to navigate hillsides in a more neutral position vs hanging off the rails with the wrong foot forward is super appealing to me. I think this is the most appealing thing about the single rail setup. Also, the energy saved from being able to do so allows people over a certain age to perform better for much longer into the day. Because we all know what happens to your riding prowess when we get exhausted.

I think I am still convinced I want a 154" because I live for a lively front end but, I can see why a 165" might be better in the deep stuff in technical terrain.

Three engines in 1200 KM, now that's scary to even think about. If you rode Cat's previously, did you have any snow related engine issues with the Suzuki engine because the snow ingestion problem was a known issue with the Proclimb chassis.

I'm glad you like the coil over shocks, that's good to hear. However, some seem to be having issues with the FTS being too soft regardless of where the set the tension. The jury is still out for me on Air or coil over shocks.

The last question for me is, since we can't get SHOT on the new cats yet, should I order electric start on a new Alpha. I would swap out the battery for a lightweight lithium of sufficient cranking amps to make sure it start even on the coldest of days. The taller longer seat is heavier but, if the single rail doesn't make you crawl all over the sled like with previous sleds, maybe that OK?

Dang, I wrote almost as much as you and I was just asking questions. Sorry.

 

[thump426er]

Three engines in 1200 KM, now that's scary to even think about. If you rode Cat's previously, did you have any snow related engine issues with the Suzuki engine because the snow ingestion problem was a known issue with the Proclimb chassis.

The last question for me is, since we can't get SHOT on the new cats yet, should I order electric start on a new Alpha. I would swap out the battery for a lightweight lithium of sufficient cranking amps to make sure it start even on the coldest of days. The taller longer seat is heavier but, if the single rail doesn't make you crawl all over the sled like with previous sleds, maybe that OK?

Dang, I wrote almost as much as you and I was just asking questions. Sorry.

Only see 2 questions in all of that haha!!

From ‘13 to ‘18 I rode Polaris so no experience with Cat there. Previous to that was M Cats but they were bulletproof.

If you have shoulder or elbow issues maybe go electric. But you would already know that the ctecs are a bear for compression to pull over. I’m 49 with a bad elbow and almost went electric, but didn’t want the fuel loss of the tank with electric.

I for sure noticed being more tired riding the 154, the 165 is already a ton of fun. The 18 162 and 20 165 cats have been THE most fun sleds I’ve ever ridden, even more fun than the 405 lbs Polaris snocross sled set up for the mtn’s I’ve ridden and it was a hoot.

 

[Frostbite]

I keep hearing the 165" Alpha acts a lot like a 153" Proclimb. If I could be certain that I could lighten up the front end enough to call it lively, I would almost order a 165" instead. I didn't realize you lose fuel capacity with electric start. How much fuel do you lose? How much weight does the electric start add? I will have to look at the specs a little closer.

 

[summ8rmk]

I keep hearing the 165" Alpha acts a lot like a 153" Proclimb. If I could be certain that I could lighten up the front end enough to call it lively, I would almost order a 165" instead. I didn't realize you lose fuel capacity with electric start. How much fuel do you lose? How much weight does the electric start add? I will have to look at the specs a little closer.

165 Alpha is not the same as a 153 proclimb. I have both. My 165 doesn't like wheelies. I can hop the front end over logs and creeks but big wheelies don't happen.

Estart is 10.3 or 10.6 gal. And 17+ lbs i can't remember the specifics.
Non ES is 11.7 gal.
I've put 10.9 gal in my sled so, that extra gallon or so is very important to me.



Sent it

 

[Frostbite]

Summ8rmk, great response! Yes, a 165 with a lively front end is something that would be great but, I have never experienced.
I am more of a boondocker than a hillclimber so the tendency of a 153-154 to want to come over on top of you in steep climbs isn't a huge concern to me.
I just like the light feeling of a very flickable front end that a guy of my weight (170 lbs) can throw around easily.
So, I guess you have an electric start if you can get 10.9 gallons in your sled?
I think a lithium battery would cut the weight penalty of push button electric start in roughly half.
Now if they would just put the rear shock lockout on the 154" sleds, that would be great!

 

[summ8rmk]

Mine is manual start. 10.9 gallons in 57miles. I was very nervous at 42miles knowing i was 15miles from the truck and probably had just over 2 gallons of fuel. If i had estart, i would have to carry a fuel can cause i don't want to quit riding 5-10mi sooner. (Or ride more trails).

The 165 Alpha will turn a much tighter circle than a 153 Proclimb and is very lively.
You really need to ride both. And adjust the shocks on both throughout the day.
I think Shock pressure plays a more important role on an Alpha than a twin rail.



Sent it

 

[sno*jet]

if you get e start id get the 165. that seat is heavy even with a lightweight battery, you can feel it back there trust me. its nice for sit down riding but nowhere else. if you got a 154 e start and moved the battery up to the can area and then put the seat of your choice on that would be ideal, but might be cheaper just to get a non e start and then buy a starter kit and add it. ? then you get the claimed bigger tank too

 

[ak]

A 165 is very lively with the elevate kit, it sure made mine feel like a 154 .

 

[Qreiff]

Put an Elevate on it and don't look back. Love my 18 Mountain Cat 162. Elevate Kit, Clutch balanced by Patrick Carbon, ZRP cover, 10" Alpha wheel kit and a Ti can. Rips!!

 

[Frostbite]

Chances are, if I do end up ordering one, I will probably order a 154" without electric start to keep the larger fuel tank.
I will worry about adding a SHOT system later
If a 165 is lively with an Elevate kit, I bet a 154 Alpha with an Elevate kit would be a real Riot?
If I get the chance, I will try to ride both before the end of the Snowmageddon order period.

 

[badaltitude]

A 154 stock is a handful, with the elevate kits its a HANDFULL!!! Fine if you want to pul wheelies all day ad stick to mild terrain, but if you ride steep tech stuff, you will not get a moments rest. Have to be on your A game all the time. A 165 is far easier to ride in trees and tech terrain. 154 (what I have) is a ton of fun but you’ll work for it. Don’t think the 154 will be easier, in any way, to ride than the 165. And a 165 will still be plenty playful.

 

[turboless terry]

A 154 stock is a handful, with the elevate kits its a HANDFULL!!! Fine if you want to pul wheelies all day ad stick to mild terrain, but if you ride steep tech stuff, you will not get a moments rest. Have to be on your A game all the time. A 165 is far easier to ride in trees and tech terrain. 154 (what I have) is a ton of fun but you’ll work for it. Don’t think the 154 will be easier, in any way, to ride than the 165. And a 165 will still be plenty playful.

Spot on!

 

[Frostbite]

This is what makes these forums so valuable. You guys are providing a wonderful service to those of us in the market. I put a lot of weight behind what you guys say. You might just be saving me from myself and my preconceived notions.
Now, I see a bunch of very slightly used Alphas for sale with super low (less than 300 miles). People selling them so soon after buying makes me wonder why the are selling them. I know the engine changes to the 2020 were substantial and mike a little more power. The 2019's are getting close to being in the $10K range where the 2020's I see are all $12K or more. Should one hold out and order a 2021 or maybe just wait for a deal on a used 2020?

 

[summ8rmk]

2019, i like the slotted piston, it gets fuel/oil in there where it needs to be. Not sure if i trust it for 2k+ miles though. Seen to many cracked skirts.
Primary clutches are awesome while they last. Mine made it 1,200 mi. Caught it before it exploded.

2020 seems to have starting issues? I don't like that. Better injector placement in the jug, not sure about the fuel/oil mixture in the bottom end? Solid skirt, pistons should last longer. No more oil injection in Front of the throttle bodies, that should keep the intake box dry and clean but may let the snow affect the engine more?



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[kgra]

I’m pretty certain you guys are incorrect with the fuel capacity. Manual start models are 10.4gal, electric start models are 11.7gal for 2020. I have the HC with electric start and I have put 42 litres in my tank

 

[summ8rmk]

For sure, the manual start tank holds more fuel than the estart tank.


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[kgra]

My dealer told me electric start tanks are longer and hold 6 litres more. But I have not compared personaly so I maybe I’ve been led to believe the wrong facts.

 

[summ8rmk]

The estart tank and seat are longer/taller but hold less fuel.
I had over an inch of fuel in my tank when i put in 10.9 gal. This weekend, I'll remove all the fuel i can and fill it up to see how much it can hold.

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