Anyone in Colorado know these guys?

[simple]

Just do not get suckered into the notion that there is anything we can do.

This mentality is what I see to often. You hate "the man" but yet you choose to do nothing to fight for your rights. "Give up it is too hard to change it". That plus this patriotic garbage of being anti-government and anti-rules because it makes it hard for you to just have fun and do whatever you want to do. I get mad because it makes me fight my own people. It is delusional, lazy, and frankly un-American to act this way. A certain population wants to tear down the whole establishment and replace it with what? Anarchy? Nope, sorry not on my watch. I'll keep my citizen badge and police the boundaries because in most cases they are there to preserve something special and only be visited occasionally with no harm done. Yes the boundary line may be hard for you to comprehend but in most cases it is based on a watershed so it should be pretty easy to understand not to go over that ridge where that powder is untouched like these 3 guys did.



Sorry you lost your special spot. A group of people decided it was not a free for all anymore. Sorry again but if people act like there are no rules then these groups, which have lots of money and are full of intelligent people who care for about the future, are going to take your toys away because you can't play nicely.


This anti-government stuff that fuels this debate is up there with anti-vaccination nonsense. There is no debate, you do what is right for the people not for the individual.

 

[simple]

agree. hike mt. elbert and just look at the damage done.

I'd love to see a study on the damage done to wilderness areas when the snow base is 60+ inches.

It isn't damage. It is NOISE pure and simple.The vast majority of the negative comments about snowmobiles is about the noise of our exhausts. Even a stock can is too loud for people (and critters).


They could easily crack down hard and change the dB ratings on snowmobiles. They could come after snowbikes for their insanely loud exhausts. They could push for 4-stroke and electric technology. Maybe they don't because we don't cause people too many problems. We keep making the news with crossing into wilderness and someone is going to push to crack down on us. So play nice and follow the rules.

 

[Dogmeat]

It isn't damage. It is NOISE pure and simple.The vast majority of the negative comments about snowmobiles is about the noise of our exhausts. Even a stock can is too loud for people (and critters).


They could easily crack down hard and change the dB ratings on snowmobiles. They could come after snowbikes for their insanely loud exhausts. They could push for 4-stroke and electric technology. Maybe they don't because we don't cause people too many problems. We keep making the news with crossing into wilderness and someone is going to push to crack down on us. So play nice and follow the rules.

The only thing you said I actually agree with you on is the noise issue.

 

[polaris dude]

It isn't damage. It is NOISE pure and simple.The vast majority of the negative comments about snowmobiles is about the noise of our exhausts. Even a stock can is too loud for people (and critters).


They could easily crack down hard and change the dB ratings on snowmobiles. They could come after snowbikes for their insanely loud exhausts. They could push for 4-stroke and electric technology. Maybe they don't because we don't cause people too many problems. We keep making the news with crossing into wilderness and someone is going to push to crack down on us. So play nice and follow the rules.

Too loud... what type of critters exactly make their homes in the highest snowiest parts of the mountains during winter I wonder? Noise isn't a problem when it allows said critters to get out of sight prior to the snowmobile even arriving. Also, plenty of "critters" utilize snowmobile tracks particularly at night when they are more active to get around when snow is deep.

Also who is gonna go save greenies when snowmobiles are gone?

 

[BeartoothBaron]

...

It's going to take sportsmen, snowmobilers, off-roaders, loggers, farmers, every group whose livelyhood is connected to our Western lands to band together with numbers and financial backing to change the status quo in Washington and at the state level. I read a recent article in Field and Stream about the billionare founder of REI, the outdoor clothing, greenie-supporting mega-company, and the billionare founder of another eastern-U.S. outdoor products company spearheading efforts using their wealth to fight the perceived sales of our public lands to private companies. These are just two of the financial elitists that are infuencing the future of our Western lands.

...

Wonder if the second company is Patagonia... This brings up one small thing we can do: don't buy from companies that actively sponsor shutting down our land. REI we've mentioned, Patagonia is also one of the absolute worst, and the list is long, unfortunately. They won't go out of business just because we stop buying, but every jacket, pair of shoes, whatever, that you don't buy is a dollar or two of profit they won't have to play with. Feel free to tell your non-sledding friends too: Lord knows they're not shy to tell you your steak is going to rot your intestines and melt Antarctica. A couple small things here and there may not turn the tide, but if enough people get onboard and do the small things, you might be surprised at how far it goes.

 

[wrtmani]

Wonder if the second company is Patagonia... This brings up one small thing we can do: don't buy from companies that actively sponsor shutting down our land. REI we've mentioned, Patagonia is also one of the absolute worst, and the list is long, unfortunately. They won't go out of business just because we stop buying, but every jacket, pair of shoes, whatever, that you don't buy is a dollar or two of profit they won't have to play with. Feel free to tell your non-sledding friends too: Lord knows they're not shy to tell you your steak is going to rot your intestines and melt Antarctica. A couple small things here and there may not turn the tide, but if enough people get onboard and do the small things, you might be surprised at how far it goes.

I was mistaken, couldn't remember it at the time I posted, went back to the article to check my facts. Field and Stream Oct/Nov 2018--The first fellow wasn't the founder of REI, it was indeed Yvon Chouinard, founder of Patagonia. The other fellow mentioned in the article was Kentan Carruth, founder of the hunting gear company First Lite.

Going back to the issue of riding in closed areas, earlier this winter a local snowbiker suffered serious injuries after being caught in an avalanche and had to be rescued from an area off limits to snowmobiles. It seems he was standing on a cornice checking his cell phone to see if his group was inside the boundry or not and the cornice gave way. His story of his injuries made the front page of the paper where he admitted he was willing to pay any fines associated with his location of the rescue. The story was shared on the newspaper's Facebook page where a greenie promptly reacted "Serves him right for riding in a closed area." This resulted in a S**tstorm of comments from people in support of the injured man, myself included. By the end of the discussion about loud snowbikes, Canada Lynx, backcountry safety, internal combustion engines, etc. It basically turned into a show of whose male "bravado" was bigger between the greenie and another supporter.

It all comes down to a fight between those that want to hold the populace under their thumb while expounding on "shared wealth" and "we know what's best for you" and those that know the real truths about the state of affairs in our country and how the current political system has gone as far away from the principles this country was founded upon. While the outlook may look bleak, we still need to try our best to bring this country back to the glory it once enjoyed.

 

[Big10inch]

This mentality is what I see to often. You hate "the man" but yet you choose to do nothing to fight for your rights. "Give up it is too hard to change it".

Well, I worked hard to change it for a solid 10 years. I went to every meeting, I staged additional meetings with govt decision makers, I wrote letters, I formed a club where the was none. I stayed on it for years. I watched the state club sell us out on issues they called compromises.

You have me confused with somebody who has done nothing to fight for their rights...

How much have you done to fight for your rights?

That plus this patriotic garbage of being anti-government and anti-rules because it makes it hard for you to just have fun and do whatever you want to do. I get mad because it makes me fight my own people. It is delusional, lazy, and frankly un-American to act this way. A certain population wants to tear down the whole establishment and replace it with what? Anarchy? Nope, sorry not on my watch. I'll keep my citizen badge and police the boundaries because in most cases they are there to preserve something special and only be visited occasionally with no harm done. Yes the boundary line may be hard for you to comprehend but in most cases it is based on a watershed so it should be pretty easy to understand not to go over that ridge where that powder is untouched like these 3 guys did.

Fact; there are so many rules and regulations that we are all criminals in one form or another. You seem to think we need all of these rules, and that they all must be just and fair. I seriously disagree and am no fan of just following the rules no matter how idiotic they may be.

The establishment is WAY out of control. It needs to be seriously pruned back, removed from our daily lives, anarchy? probably not happening but how about, instead of a cradle to grave nanny state where we all just follow govt rules made by elitists, we go with some personal responsibility...

Sorry you lost your special spot. A group of people decided it was not a free for all anymore. Sorry again but if people act like there are no rules then these groups, which have lots of money and are full of intelligent people who care for about the future, are going to take your toys away because you can't play nicely.

You have identified part of the problem, groups with lots of money that pretend to care about the future and sell this bill of goods to suckers like you who believe such garbage. Then you support it and fight against your own because you have bought into this idea that we are wrecking something for someone else, which is unproven BS. They can only tale your stuff away of you allow them to...

This anti-government stuff that fuels this debate is up there with anti-vaccination nonsense. There is no debate, you do what is right for the people not for the individual.

They said the train is ;leaving this afternoon. Gather up all of your valuables and be on that train. It is what is best for the people and you need to do your part. Never mind we will be gassing you and burning your bodies after we take your stuff...

^^^THIS^^^ is what you will get if you continue to blindly follow govt rules and regulations. It has happened again and again throughout history when people have put their trust in the govt. You go ahead, I am on a different plan.

 

[simple]

You go ahead, I am on a different plan.

I mean this sincerely, thank you for your past efforts. I'm sorry you have come to the conclusion that your government has failed you.


Now please lend a hand and support our younger generation in changing the system. How we do that is by removing the older generation in power and instituting a more progressive approach that considers the needs of all the people. The days of power plays and selfish interests is coming to an end. Sorry but we can take it from here and do a much better job.



The snowmobile industry and users needs to wake up and cooperate so that the sport can continue to be part of a balanced user group. If we operate as renegades then the sport will be black listed more and more. Fun for now but it will diminish into the shadows and limited to private land. Is that what you want? We are witnessing it happen with motorized singletrack as well. So we have more than enough work to do. Will you do the work or at least support the work or continue to make excuses that the system is broken and can't be fixed. I'll be doing the work thanks.

 

[Blk88GT]

The gift I got from the Forest Service a few years back was $585 in the Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness north east of Cooke City.

I missed a sign hidden in a pine and went ~50 yards past it following existing tracks while looking for the other half of our group. We stopped, one of the guys with me said he saw a sign and we turned right back around. Total time in the wilderness area was less than a minute or two. The Forest Service was right there waiting when we turned around. I'm convinced they were sucker tracks.

They were kind enough not to fine each of us (7x$585) after we leveled with them but it was still BS.

Thankfully my riding buddies all chipped in to help reduce the sting.



I'm not in the habit of riding in Wilderness or Caribou closures whatsoever, I made a genuine mistake and paid the price.

 

[Big10inch]

I mean this sincerely, thank you for your past efforts. I'm sorry you have come to the conclusion that your government has failed you.


Now please lend a hand and support our younger generation in changing the system. How we do that is by removing the older generation in power and instituting a more progressive approach that considers the needs of all the people. The days of power plays and selfish interests is coming to an end. Sorry but we can take it from here and do a much better job.



The snowmobile industry and users needs to wake up and cooperate so that the sport can continue to be part of a balanced user group. If we operate as renegades then the sport will be black listed more and more. Fun for now but it will diminish into the shadows and limited to private land. Is that what you want? We are witnessing it happen with motorized singletrack as well. So we have more than enough work to do. Will you do the work or at least support the work or continue to make excuses that the system is broken and can't be fixed. I'll be doing the work thanks.

Sooooo, you're a Communist? That working together and abdicating power to the central government? That has been tried and failed. Progressive? OMG, please no, one of those guys who believes the Constitution of the Untied States should be a "living breathing" document.


You could just move and leave the rest of us alone. There are lots of countries that already embrace your attitudes. This country was founded on principles different than I just read in your post. I would prefer to run much closer to the original set of rules and regs, thanks son...


Wilderness boundaries are a perfect example. There is no support for this in the Constitution, the federal govt doesn't really have the power to close public lands, in fact they are not supposed to control any at all, much less bar the public from use of the existing "public lands".


Good Luck saving the world. Just understand how many times what you advocate has been tried and failed. I know you are different, special even, so best of luck. God help us all if you manage to further socialize this once great country...

 

[BeartoothBaron]

I just read the story of the snowbiker who got caught in an avalanche: he had just discovered he was slightly out of bounds and was about to turn around when the cornice he was on broke and triggered the avalanche. It's really sick of anyone to say "serves him right," and we should highlight that sort of thing. It's a minority of activists who have that mentality, but there are plenty of them who view their activism like a crusade, and see the death or injury of a snowmobiler/biker as some sort of karma. They also need to recognize how easy it is to go out of bounds in most places. Their distain is understandable to a degree in the case of a renegade knowingly riding out of bounds (of course, that's their immediate thought when someone is cited for out-of-bounds), but I'd bet the majority of cases are inadvertent.

I recognize the name Yvon Chouinard, and unfortunately she has lots of zombie-like followers. That includes someone I knew in the Navy who I would have called a friend, but who shut down and blocked me on FB just because I politely pointed out how one-sided Yvon is. Those kind of people are not worth wasting your breath on: they're basically brainwashed. To their mind skiing/snow-shoeing/whatever is the only thing that should be allowed into the back-country (until they get lost or break a leg – then someone better send in the fleet), and our evil machines run on squirrel blood and leave gashes of salted earth in their wake.

As for the future, we haven't lost yet, and I don't think we should be acting like we have at this point. Yes, we've lost some sizable chunks of land, but we've also had some victories of late, and still have lots of good riding available. What really needs to happen is for the federal government to step back and let states manage their land more. The states that allocate plenty of good land for snowmobiles will get all the business, while the rest would see an exodus of money and even people. I wish I could say MT would be one that would open things up; sadly, we've got lots of tree-huggers, plus an idiot governor. Things have gotten better the last couple years, people like Ryan Zinke have done some good work to reverse the damage of the previous administration. The biggest problem I see is that 80% of the general population has no clue how little impact snowmobiles have when they're driven responsibly. If someone could sit down with them and just give them the facts, they'd side with us, or at least stop going along with the feel-good crap the enviros feed them while they tie up "public" land.

So, the bad news is, I think it's going to take more from us in terms of patience, compliance, advocacy, and financial support for groups that are on our side. The good news is that we can make up a lot of ground if we put in the effort and stay unified; the groups opposing us have only been so successful because of misinformation and little concerted effort to counter them. Finally, while I'm not here to police anyone, I'm also not interested in riding or associating with anyone who thinks there's nothing to be gained by following the rules.

 

[simple]

communist...progressive....socialist...move to another county...I understand the intentions of founders of this country better than you do...

You need to turn off that Fox News and Rush radio dude. It is rotting your brain. Start by getting outside of your bubble. Meet some new people, ones that don't share your opinion, and have some discussions. You might learn something really empowering. The feed of negativity can be stopped if you turn it off.


Sorry the world is changing so quickly and new challenges hit us all the time. Turn off that negative feed and look to see where you can contribute your community in a positive way. Signed, a fossil fuel burning hippie.

 

[rhalloran]

Wilderness boundaries are a perfect example. There is no support for this in the Constitution, the federal govt doesn't really have the power to close public lands, in fact they are not supposed to control any at all, much less bar the public from use of the existing "public lands".

Red Mtn? Is that you?


You're perfectly welcome to enter wilderness areas on foot. They're not barring the public from USING the lands, just HOW you're using them.


YOU want to use your snowmobile. OK. great.



I want to use my chainsaw collection.



Or my skidder.



Maybe I'm a logging enthusiast.



Maybe I'm going to take hobby-railroading to new levels.



Maybe I can afford a hovercraft.



Maybe I can afford a giant snowblower like those used in the Sierras, and I think it'd be fun to snowblow all the FS roads all winter long.



Or, I just got a new rifle for long distance shooting, working on my 3000m shots, I can just do that wherever the heck I want, right?



Yeah, I know, snowmobiles don't damage the ground (except for the dbags who spin the track to the dirt early season), snowmobiles don't send projectiles miles away, snowmobiles don't cut trees down, you can find a reason to disallow or limit where each and every hypothetical hobby above is permitted.....


.....or do you REALLY think I should be able to do WHATEVER I WANT with public lands?



Really?



Anything?



Anything at all?


If you answer "yes" to that with a straight face, then, well, carry on.

 

[Idcatman3]

.....or do you REALLY think I should be able to do WHATEVER I WANT with public lands?

You shouldn't, I should. (sarcasm, if it's not obvious enough)

 

[Dogmeat]

I love it when the idiot skiiers come on this site and post like this ... shows their true colors.

Seriously, these guys probably put tracks on 0.000002% of the skiable area in the wilderness and you jackasses seem to think somehow your entire world has been destroyed.

Grow up.

 

[rhalloran]

Us "idiot skiers" are growing in numbers, and some of us want to preserve snowmobile-legal terrain so we can continue to do what *we* enjoy.

Your attitude - "dogmeat" - is hopefully representative of the minority of snowmobilers.

I know I would much rather keep areas open for motorized use, but if people need to explain why the people who are responsible for this thread getting posted to begin with is bad for snowmobiling in general, then maybe you and your peers deserve what you end up with.

I don't care anymore. Even though I believe most snowmobile enthusiasts are decent, reasonable people, the ones who seem to get attention are the ones with attitude problems, loud snowmobiles and general disregard for other people.

That's bad. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, right?

To put it another way, if you attract attention, you'll get it.

Just last week a neighbor made conversation with me; I don't know the guy beyond polite greetings, but he was walking his dogs past my house, I was out front, he stopped to talk about the snowmobiles.

He's an ornithologist. He normally does his thing in the summer, but decided to go out looking around in the winter. He rented snowshoes, went to the worst possible place, as far as I'm concerned, because it is "multi use" and overrun with rude people - Vail Pass - and was terrorized by the sleds.

Now, I was not there, two sides to every story, I wish he'd asked me before going to VP so I could suggest alternatives, but check it out - this guy had no opinion about snowmobiles prior to his trip to VP.

Now he does, and it is not good. Anecdotal, yes, but am I surprised?

Not even a little.

And before you go off about how he's a hippie tree hugger, he's got ATVs and a Jeep.

If (when?) we get restricted to MVUM routes, I'll not be the least bit surprised. You people are basically asking for it.

I won't really care, either. It is sad, really. I think there are a lot of people like me who could likely bring value to these conversations - not THESE ones, but the ones that matter - but we're not really inspired to help out when we're called idiots by people who clearly don't understand the point some of us are trying to make.

Good luck. If I ever go to meetings, or write letters to politicians, or do things to try to help, I'll have to think long and hard about what I want vs what's really right.

It is pretty clear to me that you and red mtn and friends only care about what YOU want.

As an idiot skier, I just want to be able to use my machines to get to the top.

"Established routes only" does not sound all THAT bad to me. I'd much rather not be restricted, but how much would it suck if the "idiot skiers" banded together and started proposing compromises to the Forest Service?

My neighbor did not care one way or another about us until last week. Now he does not like us. I think I undid some damage, but HE'S GOT AN OPINION NOW.

Doing dumb things and getting in the paper WILL give previously indifferent people an opinion.

I don't know how to simplify it further.

I also don't know why I bother. Heh. Anyway. IMHO, discussions like this will eventually truly define the "hybrid users" as their own group - the "idiot skiers" who use sleds for access - and all of a sudden, they'll work toward THEIR goals, which are a WHOLE LOT more in line with what "the greenies" think is appropriate. It'd be a pretty easy sell.

Something to consider.

 

[RanOutofTalent]

This is the exact attitude that will get areas closed. Our riding areas are limited, but start riding in closed areas they will shut down adjacent access.

I could not agree more, an attitude of not caring is why areas get shut down. Just respect the areas we have and follow the rules

 

[colorado logger]

Wilderness area riding

Not sure where all of you are located in the state. I l live down in south fork and I will tell you nothing changes down here without my input! Don’t always get my way. But I will never give up! It sucks going to meetings, endless meetings. The forest is run by the ones who show up! And that is the difficult part. CSA gives them hell none stop, if you guys are members great, if not please join us. If you want to ride (unserville)go ahead. We gave it up for lent, just to risky. Sucks if you get caught! Logger

 

[Big10inch]

Red Mtn? Is that you?


You're perfectly welcome to enter wilderness areas on foot. They're not barring the public from USING the lands, just HOW you're using them.


YOU want to use your snowmobile. OK. great.



I want to use my chainsaw collection.



Or my skidder.



Maybe I'm a logging enthusiast.

Cool! I am a logging enthusiast myself and I have a skidder and chainsaws! You should see how pristine and beautiful the lands we cleaned up using those tools looks! You can walk through the woods in the summer because there are no more dead logs lying around. You can sled it in the winter as the ground obstacles have been cleaned up. It really is a great way to care for your forest. I WISH they would let us back in to clean up the mess that has accumulated when the state/fed shut the logging down. Then they took areas logged for decades, complete with road networks and somehow managed to meet the wilderness standard of "untrammeled by man" which is a joke to this day.

Maybe I'm going to take hobby-railroading to new levels.



Maybe I can afford a hovercraft.



Maybe I can afford a giant snowblower like those used in the Sierras, and I think it'd be fun to snowblow all the FS roads all winter long.



Or, I just got a new rifle for long distance shooting, working on my 3000m shots, I can just do that wherever the heck I want, right?



Yeah, I know, snowmobiles don't damage the ground (except for the dbags who spin the track to the dirt early season), snowmobiles don't send projectiles miles away, snowmobiles don't cut trees down, you can find a reason to disallow or limit where each and every hypothetical hobby above is permitted.....


.....or do you REALLY think I should be able to do WHATEVER I WANT with public lands?



Really?



Anything?



Anything at all?


If you answer "yes" to that with a straight face, then, well, carry on.

YES, not only YES but HELL YES!!!!

 

[Big10inch]

I could not agree more, an attitude of not caring is why areas get shut down. Just respect the areas we have and follow the rules

Yep, just respect the rules and get on that train....

You people have not read any history have you? Playing right into their hands...