Another DD Bearing Failure - 5203 this time
- Thread starter iahegdal
- Start date
Measured 2011 HCR Tunnel
Updated 5/12/2012.
The first photo shows where the tunnel flexes. My tunnel springs apart about 0.100" at the drive shaft center-line, when everything is bolted up tight (the brake caliper and DD bolted to the tunnel).
The second photo shows my dial indicator measuring rig. The best I could devise to measure the spring in the tunnel. The dial indicator is on the drive shaft center-line. When the 8 DD nuts were loosened, the tunnel relaxed and the entire DD moved outward due to tunnel flex. Both sides of the tunnel flexed, and this rig measured both. It measured 0.080" last night, and after cooling down in my garage, it measured 0.095" this morning. Didn't believe it would "settle" that much overnight, so I re-tightened the DD bolts and the dial indicator came back to zero, with the same 0.095" total deflection.
Didn't know what to believe, so I rigged a different method to measure my tunnel flex, using a metal bar inside the tunnel, as close as possible to the drive shaft (see pictures 3 to 5). I cut the steel bar to 15-7/8", and trimmed it with a file to make it fit exactly inside the aluminum tunnel, at a location I believe is similar to the flex at the drive shaft center line. After tightening the DD mounting bolts, I measured the tunnel flex outward 0.105" (total, not per side) with feeler gages (see picture 6).
Side pressure (axial load) is obviously bad for the little transfer shaft (6203, 5203, 3203) bearing. Another bad situation for deep-groove ball bearings on both ends of the drive shaft is misalignment. Which flexes the DD and brake caliper housings out of parallel. Lateral flex of 0.050" per side, like mine, over a pivot distance of 7 inches (drive shaft to bulkhead), will cause a 1 to 2 degree shaft / bearing misalignment per side. Not good for deep-groove ball bearings! Found clear evidence of that happening. See the 8th & 9th photos of DD output bearing wear patterns, obviously the bearing was held crooked in the DD housing by my tunnel flex.
Averaging my two measurements, I plan to shorten my HCR drive shaft by 0.100", plus 0.016" for the missing brake-side bearing shield (see gman post #23), plus 0.014" for axial clearance, or 0.130" total. The 7th photo is the drive shaft shoulder on the brake side, where I plan to remove 0.100". I will trim 0.030" from the DD end of the drive shaft. That will shorten the drive shaft, center the drivers, allow for the missing bearing shield, and add some axial clearance. That repair should reduce the side pressure and misalignment on the DD transfer shaft bearing and the main drive shaft bearings.
The original DD 6203 bearing was in rough shape and was replaced with a BDX 5203 by the previous owner at 300 miles, with no transfer shaft trimming. The 5203 bearing is now in good shape after another 700 miles (see last photo), except for 1/1000" of axial free play in the bearing. I'm going to replace it with a new SKF 3203 unsealed bearing which doesn't have any axial free-play. The DD transfer shaft doesn't need any trimming. The DD cover closed just fine, and I have 0.012" axial free-play in the DD output shaft.
If your tunnel is not too narrow and not "sprung" like mine, you shouldn't shorten your drive shaft based on my measurements. If you are not losing the 6203 / 5203 DD bearing, you could cause a problem if you shorten your drive shaft too much and create a lot of tension in the drive shaft. If you are losing DD bearings, your drive shaft is probably too long and you should measure, to know exactly what to do.
Facts and measurements are a wonderful thing! Good luck!
P.S. Had trouble getting the brake side bearings off the drive shaft. It takes a special socket to remove the outer nut, which you can purchase from BDX (P/N 50046 for $29). After removing the brake disc, I had to press the drive shaft out of the brake housing / drive shaft bearings, due to rust & crap, probably caused by the missing bearing protector, Arctic Cat p/n 2602-076. Cleaned the shaft with emery cloth and now the bearing slides together as the Arctic Cat service manual says it should. Good place for some water-proof grease or Moly paste!
Another tip: Don't remove the last two socket-head bolts holding the brake caliper to the brake / bearing housing. If you do, you will lose brake fluid and make a mess. Then you have to bleed the brakes. Yuck! No need to remove the brake caliper to get the drive shaft apart. Live and learn!
Updated 5/12/2012.
The first photo shows where the tunnel flexes. My tunnel springs apart about 0.100" at the drive shaft center-line, when everything is bolted up tight (the brake caliper and DD bolted to the tunnel).
The second photo shows my dial indicator measuring rig. The best I could devise to measure the spring in the tunnel. The dial indicator is on the drive shaft center-line. When the 8 DD nuts were loosened, the tunnel relaxed and the entire DD moved outward due to tunnel flex. Both sides of the tunnel flexed, and this rig measured both. It measured 0.080" last night, and after cooling down in my garage, it measured 0.095" this morning. Didn't believe it would "settle" that much overnight, so I re-tightened the DD bolts and the dial indicator came back to zero, with the same 0.095" total deflection.
Didn't know what to believe, so I rigged a different method to measure my tunnel flex, using a metal bar inside the tunnel, as close as possible to the drive shaft (see pictures 3 to 5). I cut the steel bar to 15-7/8", and trimmed it with a file to make it fit exactly inside the aluminum tunnel, at a location I believe is similar to the flex at the drive shaft center line. After tightening the DD mounting bolts, I measured the tunnel flex outward 0.105" (total, not per side) with feeler gages (see picture 6).
Side pressure (axial load) is obviously bad for the little transfer shaft (6203, 5203, 3203) bearing. Another bad situation for deep-groove ball bearings on both ends of the drive shaft is misalignment. Which flexes the DD and brake caliper housings out of parallel. Lateral flex of 0.050" per side, like mine, over a pivot distance of 7 inches (drive shaft to bulkhead), will cause a 1 to 2 degree shaft / bearing misalignment per side. Not good for deep-groove ball bearings! Found clear evidence of that happening. See the 8th & 9th photos of DD output bearing wear patterns, obviously the bearing was held crooked in the DD housing by my tunnel flex.
Averaging my two measurements, I plan to shorten my HCR drive shaft by 0.100", plus 0.016" for the missing brake-side bearing shield (see gman post #23), plus 0.014" for axial clearance, or 0.130" total. The 7th photo is the drive shaft shoulder on the brake side, where I plan to remove 0.100". I will trim 0.030" from the DD end of the drive shaft. That will shorten the drive shaft, center the drivers, allow for the missing bearing shield, and add some axial clearance. That repair should reduce the side pressure and misalignment on the DD transfer shaft bearing and the main drive shaft bearings.
The original DD 6203 bearing was in rough shape and was replaced with a BDX 5203 by the previous owner at 300 miles, with no transfer shaft trimming. The 5203 bearing is now in good shape after another 700 miles (see last photo), except for 1/1000" of axial free play in the bearing. I'm going to replace it with a new SKF 3203 unsealed bearing which doesn't have any axial free-play. The DD transfer shaft doesn't need any trimming. The DD cover closed just fine, and I have 0.012" axial free-play in the DD output shaft.
If your tunnel is not too narrow and not "sprung" like mine, you shouldn't shorten your drive shaft based on my measurements. If you are not losing the 6203 / 5203 DD bearing, you could cause a problem if you shorten your drive shaft too much and create a lot of tension in the drive shaft. If you are losing DD bearings, your drive shaft is probably too long and you should measure, to know exactly what to do.
Facts and measurements are a wonderful thing! Good luck!
P.S. Had trouble getting the brake side bearings off the drive shaft. It takes a special socket to remove the outer nut, which you can purchase from BDX (P/N 50046 for $29). After removing the brake disc, I had to press the drive shaft out of the brake housing / drive shaft bearings, due to rust & crap, probably caused by the missing bearing protector, Arctic Cat p/n 2602-076. Cleaned the shaft with emery cloth and now the bearing slides together as the Arctic Cat service manual says it should. Good place for some water-proof grease or Moly paste!
Another tip: Don't remove the last two socket-head bolts holding the brake caliper to the brake / bearing housing. If you do, you will lose brake fluid and make a mess. Then you have to bleed the brakes. Yuck! No need to remove the brake caliper to get the drive shaft apart. Live and learn!
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Paul, looking at your pic's I didn't see the bearing shield on the brake side of your sled....Cat forgot to install the shield on my 11, so I thought, but I am starting to think they left it out to help fix the over wide drive shaft. Anyway you should get the shield, if you didn't get one and machine another .045 thousands from the brake side for the sheild.
I've never pulled my DD out of my 2010 so I don't know how it is all held together.
What I'm having a hard time visualizing is why the tunnel would "spring" apart a little when you loosen the DD.
The tunnel is not bolted to anything. ?
I'm not doubting the tunnel sprung out, just wondering if something got bound up during assembly and if the mere fact of loosening all the bolts holding the DD, and maybe the brake side shaft bolt, and then retightening all of them would alleviate some of the stress on the bearing?
Maybe this is why the 5203 recommended installation procedure is to remove the DD first. I wonder if anyone who has the 5203 installed and has subsequently removed just the DD cover, has noticed that the cover must be "sucked" up to the DD when installing or if the cover fit pretty snug before any of the cover screws were tightened.
Further, I'm trying to envision bolting the DD back in place and what would cause it to press the tunnel any narrower.
What I'm having a hard time visualizing is why the tunnel would "spring" apart a little when you loosen the DD.
The tunnel is not bolted to anything. ?
I'm not doubting the tunnel sprung out, just wondering if something got bound up during assembly and if the mere fact of loosening all the bolts holding the DD, and maybe the brake side shaft bolt, and then retightening all of them would alleviate some of the stress on the bearing?
Maybe this is why the 5203 recommended installation procedure is to remove the DD first. I wonder if anyone who has the 5203 installed and has subsequently removed just the DD cover, has noticed that the cover must be "sucked" up to the DD when installing or if the cover fit pretty snug before any of the cover screws were tightened.
Further, I'm trying to envision bolting the DD back in place and what would cause it to press the tunnel any narrower.
My comments are in CAPS.
Kind of confusing - until you watch it happen. Every turn of your ratchet (on the 8 DD mounting bolts) causes the dial indicator to move. Seeing is believing.
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Thanks for the tip! I agree with your Arctic Cat "factory modification" theory. Most likely, that is exactly what they did when the drive shaft didn't fit properly on the assembly line. AC strategy: Leave out as many parts as possible and "Mum's the Word". Sneaky bastards!
Bought the "Shield, Bearing-Caliper", Item# 2602-076, for $3.99 from an Arctic Cat dealer on the net. My 2011 HCR had some rust going on between the drive shaft and brake-side drive-shaft bearings, which made it tough to press off the brake caliper. Should be a slip fit. The problem (water and rust) was probably made worse by the missing bearing shield. Glad I took it apart! Reassembled with anti-corrosion grease.
Thanks for the tip gman!
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What are we talking about when refering to a bearing shield?
I stuck a webcam under my 2011 Snopro M8 and this is what the brake side bearing looks like in the tunnel. Does mine have this shield?
I stuck a webcam under my 2011 Snopro M8 and this is what the brake side bearing looks like in the tunnel. Does mine have this shield?
Yes it does.........look at the pictures in the post above and you will see where he is missing his.......he posted a picture with a red arrow pointing to where it is missing. You can see the empty space and shoulder on the drive shaft where it should be. It looks like your's is in place.
IGBT: I don't think you have the bearing shield. Can't see the bumps. My 2011 HCR is pictured below as it came from the factory, without the bearing shield. I don't have pictures on my computer with the shield in place, and I'm away from home on a job right now. (See my later posts.)
The steel bearing shield covers the rubber bearing seal and it flings dirt, snow and water outward, away from the (rubber to steel inner race) sealing interface. Without the shield, a stick could get jammed in the rubber seal and ruin it, letting the grease out and crap in.
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Lovely. Well the M8 is all put back together with the upgraded 3203 bearing so que sara sara. I want to ride now, she will just have to hold together until spring.
I think I have the bearing shield on my sled but you guys tell me what you think. It is item #5 in the attached diagram.
http://www.arcticcatpartsnation.com...1d54cf/drive-train-shaft-and-brake-assemblies
http://www.arcticcatpartsnation.com...1d54cf/drive-train-shaft-and-brake-assemblies
You do have it in place........if you look at the pictures above that Paul27 posted of his sled that had it missing.......blow the picture up and you can see that there is a recess where it should be where the drive shaft meets the brake housing. Your sled as well as IGBT's sled both have the bearing sheild as it is damn near flush with the casting of the break housing. I don't know how to describe it any better but if you look at Paul27's photo there is what appears to be a groove / opening around the drive shaft where is meets the brake housing that has the bearing. Both of your sleds do not have this groove / opening.....I would say you are good to go! I check my 2010 this weekend and it looked similar to both of yours with the sheild in place. Happy sledding fellas!
Dave
B
BradM8
Active member
I cant believe how many people rely just on asking on these forums about questions likr if i have this sled is mine wrecked, will the bearing fit in my sled without issue, how much if any will i need to machine? I have a 2010 M8 LE and in 400km the stock 6203 bearing was toast when i removed the entire diamond drive it was pretty obvious that there was side load on the diamond drive as it did pop off from the tunnel when all the nuts were loosened off. I think this is the primary reason stock ones fail as they cannot take the force as it is the smallest bearing in line with the side load. The final answer is because of arctic cats poor quality control on manufacturing and machining is each machine is different and each needs to be treated as such. When i pressed on a new STF 5203 bearing and went to reassemble the diamond drive it first appeared i was going to have to machine the transfer shaft but after some fiddling everything fit into place without grinding/machining. However after some careful measuring with an inside micrometer (I tried using a bar with feeler gauges but it was too much of a pain in the *** and honestly i dont beleive i was getting accurate or repeatable enough results) I had 0.060" machined off each end (0.120" total) and during assembly there was no more side load or springing effect with the drive set in place vs bolted down. This mod isnt rocket science or that difficult i just cant believe how beat to death and how much space has been wasted on this issue is with so many people still stunned on how to fix this.
One would think that with as much space that has been wasted on this issue and with how "easy" this mod is and how it fixes everything, that Arctic Cat could have done SOMETHING to fix this in 2009 2010 2011, etc.
Coldfinger: You definitely have the bearing shield. In your photo, I can see the brass color and some of the 6 bumps.
BradM8: What's confusing is some people know what they are talking about, and other people post comments or opinions that are total BS.
For example, I occasionally ride with a guy who has a 2009 M8 with a turbo and high miles. He knows way more about sleds than I do, and he never had a problem with his DD and stock 6203 bearing. So he told me I was crazy to worry about my stock, low mileage, 09 M8. He claimed it is all about proper oil changes. Turns out he was dead wrong and my 6203 bearing was trash after 600 easy miles.
That's what I found confusing. You have right, wrong, silly, and smart information, all mixed up in these forums with a load of BS, speculation, and opinions. To figure it out, you have to read several forums, with a very discerning eye. The good thing is it's easier now, with many more well-studied posts, as compared to how it was a few years ago when there were fewer facts, and a lot more opinion and guess-work. Arctic Cat put out 100% BS on this issue, whereas BDX really tried to help, even though they didn't manufacture the DD's with the problems.
One guy who I believe was instrumental in figuring out what was really going on is bgreen776. See his post #327 at http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151644&page=4 That was the turning point for me. After that, my two machines with Diamond Drives started to make sense.
BradM8: What's confusing is some people know what they are talking about, and other people post comments or opinions that are total BS.
For example, I occasionally ride with a guy who has a 2009 M8 with a turbo and high miles. He knows way more about sleds than I do, and he never had a problem with his DD and stock 6203 bearing. So he told me I was crazy to worry about my stock, low mileage, 09 M8. He claimed it is all about proper oil changes. Turns out he was dead wrong and my 6203 bearing was trash after 600 easy miles.
That's what I found confusing. You have right, wrong, silly, and smart information, all mixed up in these forums with a load of BS, speculation, and opinions. To figure it out, you have to read several forums, with a very discerning eye. The good thing is it's easier now, with many more well-studied posts, as compared to how it was a few years ago when there were fewer facts, and a lot more opinion and guess-work. Arctic Cat put out 100% BS on this issue, whereas BDX really tried to help, even though they didn't manufacture the DD's with the problems.
One guy who I believe was instrumental in figuring out what was really going on is bgreen776. See his post #327 at http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151644&page=4 That was the turning point for me. After that, my two machines with Diamond Drives started to make sense.
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Pictures of my 2011 HCR:
#1 Machined 0.025" from the DD end of my track drive shaft.
#2 Machined 0.105" from the brake-end bearing shoulder on my track drive shaft. The dark ring was the end of the machined surface as supplied by A/C.
Note: The 0.130" shortened from my drive shaft was the right thing to do, but not quite enough. I still have some (about 0.015") outward spring in the tunnel, when everything is bolted up tight. Much better than it used to be!
#3 is the bearing shield, that Arctic Cat did not install at the factory, A/C p/n 2602-076, $3.99.
#4 is the BDX shaft end nut, p/n 50045, $5.95.
#5 is the BDX nut wrench, p/n 50046, $28.95.
#6 & #7 Views of the bearing shield (on the brake side). The step and bumps on the shield should point away from the bearing and inward toward the tunnel.
#1 Machined 0.025" from the DD end of my track drive shaft.
#2 Machined 0.105" from the brake-end bearing shoulder on my track drive shaft. The dark ring was the end of the machined surface as supplied by A/C.
Note: The 0.130" shortened from my drive shaft was the right thing to do, but not quite enough. I still have some (about 0.015") outward spring in the tunnel, when everything is bolted up tight. Much better than it used to be!
#3 is the bearing shield, that Arctic Cat did not install at the factory, A/C p/n 2602-076, $3.99.
#4 is the BDX shaft end nut, p/n 50045, $5.95.
#5 is the BDX nut wrench, p/n 50046, $28.95.
#6 & #7 Views of the bearing shield (on the brake side). The step and bumps on the shield should point away from the bearing and inward toward the tunnel.
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Jackshaft clearance is not an issuse that I have noticed on my '10 M series. When I took my DD apart (with 1300 miles) all pieces including the transfer shaft bearing looked brand new. Always change my oil every 250 mile...which is overkill
Im not mad, just tired of reading do I have to push the transfer shaft shoulder back or not. Gonna lay this out real simple so everyone
understands....YES! If you put a thicker bearing in place of the factory one, you absolutley have to push the shoulder back to maintain proper gear alignment. It has nothing to do with "I never pushed the shoulder back and my cover went on" maybe it did but that shaft is most certainly not sitting in the same spot as it was before!
What I measured:
** I am a machinist so I realize some may not have the measuring tools that I used, but even a standard vernier caliper, with the tang in good condition will be able to make these measurements with sufficent enough accuracy.**
**(these are my measurements, not intended for use by anyone else as these numbers may vary machine to machine)**
After the transfer shaft bearing/spacer is removed from the transfer shaft
-measured the thickness of the original bearing and spacer (.630")
-measured the length of the area where the bearing is pressed onto (.690")
-measured the new wider bearing (NSK3203B-2RSTNC3) (.688")
The old bearing/spacer had .060" of shaft protruding from the end of it, therefore the new bearing must have .060" protruding from the end of it so all gears are properly aligned. (this is where some are having problems with the gearcase halves not fitting together properly) If I would have just slammed the new bearing on, which is .058" thicker then the original bearing/spacer, without pushing the shoulder back, the sun gear and larger transfer gear would be .058" out of alignment with their meshing gears, and the case halve more then likley wouldnt have fit together properly. After the shaft was machined the distance from the front of the shaft to the shoulder was .748"
Simply put, you HAVE TO push the shaft shoulder back the same amount the new bearing and old bearing/spacer differ in width (in my case .058") in order for all gears to have peoper alignment, and to ensure that everything goes back together correctly.
Not machining the shaft may work for some, but I would assume if it does, it may not for as long as it could have if done properly.
I hope this sheds some light on the issue and the question of machining the shaft. Personally I cannot understand how someone can put on a wider bearing without allowing proper room for it without affecting something else on the shaft. It's just common sense. As far as your local Arctic Cat dealer or BDX or whoever, I would never blindly trust anything they say (as far as BDX saying no machining required...thats just marketing, the don't give a F. But that also depends on the width of their bearing)
A little common sense goes a long way. These forums give the individual access to some very knowledgeable people, and have been a great resource to myself and others I know.
Have a good one
Im not mad, just tired of reading do I have to push the transfer shaft shoulder back or not. Gonna lay this out real simple so everyone
understands....YES! If you put a thicker bearing in place of the factory one, you absolutley have to push the shoulder back to maintain proper gear alignment. It has nothing to do with "I never pushed the shoulder back and my cover went on" maybe it did but that shaft is most certainly not sitting in the same spot as it was before!
What I measured:
** I am a machinist so I realize some may not have the measuring tools that I used, but even a standard vernier caliper, with the tang in good condition will be able to make these measurements with sufficent enough accuracy.**
**(these are my measurements, not intended for use by anyone else as these numbers may vary machine to machine)**
After the transfer shaft bearing/spacer is removed from the transfer shaft
-measured the thickness of the original bearing and spacer (.630")
-measured the length of the area where the bearing is pressed onto (.690")
-measured the new wider bearing (NSK3203B-2RSTNC3) (.688")
The old bearing/spacer had .060" of shaft protruding from the end of it, therefore the new bearing must have .060" protruding from the end of it so all gears are properly aligned. (this is where some are having problems with the gearcase halves not fitting together properly) If I would have just slammed the new bearing on, which is .058" thicker then the original bearing/spacer, without pushing the shoulder back, the sun gear and larger transfer gear would be .058" out of alignment with their meshing gears, and the case halve more then likley wouldnt have fit together properly. After the shaft was machined the distance from the front of the shaft to the shoulder was .748"
Simply put, you HAVE TO push the shaft shoulder back the same amount the new bearing and old bearing/spacer differ in width (in my case .058") in order for all gears to have peoper alignment, and to ensure that everything goes back together correctly.
Not machining the shaft may work for some, but I would assume if it does, it may not for as long as it could have if done properly.
I hope this sheds some light on the issue and the question of machining the shaft. Personally I cannot understand how someone can put on a wider bearing without allowing proper room for it without affecting something else on the shaft. It's just common sense. As far as your local Arctic Cat dealer or BDX or whoever, I would never blindly trust anything they say (as far as BDX saying no machining required...thats just marketing, the don't give a F. But that also depends on the width of their bearing)
A little common sense goes a long way. These forums give the individual access to some very knowledgeable people, and have been a great resource to myself and others I know.
Have a good one
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When I switched to the wider 3203 bearing in my 2009 M8, the DD transfer shaft required 0.040" machining, similar to what BigTurboT experienced.
A/C must have changed something in 2011, because my 2011 M8 HCR did not require any DD transfer shaft machining. The wider 3203 bearing replaced the skinny 6203 bearing and spacer with 0.012" axial clearance to spare at the DD output shaft (axial free-play).
My tunnel / track drive shaft situation was bad, as described below, possibly due to the fact that my HCR was manufactured very early in the 2011 production run.
Whatever you do - MEASURE your machine like BigTurboT and others have recommended. Otherwise, you're just guessing.
A/C must have changed something in 2011, because my 2011 M8 HCR did not require any DD transfer shaft machining. The wider 3203 bearing replaced the skinny 6203 bearing and spacer with 0.012" axial clearance to spare at the DD output shaft (axial free-play).
My tunnel / track drive shaft situation was bad, as described below, possibly due to the fact that my HCR was manufactured very early in the 2011 production run.
Whatever you do - MEASURE your machine like BigTurboT and others have recommended. Otherwise, you're just guessing.
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Update on the 2011 HCR discussed above. Yesterday, after a fun day riding in the mountains, we changed DD gear lube. Drained and replaced the Amsoil chain case gear lube and it was totally clean, clear, looked like new. On the drain plug magnet, there was a very small amount of black smudge (no flakes or specks). The micro-iron particles on the magnet looked like black grease.
DD history: Shredded a 6203 bearing at 300 miles. Previous owner installed 5203 bearing was loose at 900 miles. Trimmed the DD drive shaft as discussed in posts above at 900 miles Dec 2011, and installed a new SKF 3203 with no seals. Changed gear lube Dec 2012 and Dec 2014, looked A-OK. Changed gear lube again yesterday, with 1800 miles on machine and 3203 DD bearing. Result: The repairs and modifications discussed above seem to have worked well.
Doesn't stop the machine from getting stuck in deep snow. Son Ethan got the "first-stick-of-the-day" trophy yesterday. Followed by many more for both of us.
DD history: Shredded a 6203 bearing at 300 miles. Previous owner installed 5203 bearing was loose at 900 miles. Trimmed the DD drive shaft as discussed in posts above at 900 miles Dec 2011, and installed a new SKF 3203 with no seals. Changed gear lube Dec 2012 and Dec 2014, looked A-OK. Changed gear lube again yesterday, with 1800 miles on machine and 3203 DD bearing. Result: The repairs and modifications discussed above seem to have worked well.
Doesn't stop the machine from getting stuck in deep snow. Son Ethan got the "first-stick-of-the-day" trophy yesterday. Followed by many more for both of us.
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